CCair

[Intruder One]

Trainerjet your comments are right on ,couldn't have said it any better.......As for Prodigal...you may not have ever worked for a airline I don't know but as far as the CCAIR vs.Mesa goes yes sometimes you do give up things to keep a company afloat,but that is not the case here.Mesa bought us ,they control everything about us,yet they themselves are making tons of money and I have a stockholders report to prove it.This battle is not about survival its about pitting one pilot group against another....clear and simple.

 

[Beantown]

No one wants to answer my original question! SHOULD ALPA HAVE THE RIGHT TO REJECT A CONTRACT THAT A PILOT GROUP RATIFIED WITH A MAJORITY?

As for the rest of this crap, I understand what J.O is doing and I don't like it. But as I said before, he has us by the balls and until we have some leverage, there is not much we can do about it. The fact is that IF we sign this contract and IF we get jets, almost all of us will be getting a raise over what we have now. It will create some growth and people will start moving up therefore making more money. Those of us that have higher aspirations then to work of a regional will be able to become captions and get the PIC time we need to move on. CCAir has alot of very senior captions (15+ years) who have been capped a $54.64, will now be able to make over $85.00 an hr. The new jet rates in the TA are BETTER then the jet rates in our current contract which top out at $75.09 an hr. As a second year jet FO I would make $27.70 an hr under the TA vs.. $26.06 under our existing contract. Yes, the TA sucks, and there is more bad then good but it is not all bad. You don't hear ALPA talking about the good in the meetings.
That leads me to another sore spot. I can't stand that MY union, won't tell me the truth or at the very least is trying to skew EVERYTHING to the negative instead of just giving me the facts and letting me make the vote that is best for ME. All they care about is National ALPA and there agenda, not what is best for CCAIR.
Many of the older guys at CCAir just want things to stay the same. A small little company that flys Dash8's and J32's. They are afraid that they can't make the upgrade to a Jet or just don't want to put in the effort. Hell, we have captions that can't even make the jump from J32 to the Dash. You think they have any shot at making it in the Jet? I din't think so. They want all this to go away and to keep status quo. They don't understand that things are changing in the regional industery and CCair has been left behind. They blew it three years ago when J.O offered us the ERJ's for very small consessions in our contract and now we are paying bigtime. -Bean

 

[flx757]

Beantown,

Surplus 1 did a very thorough job of answering your original question several posts up on this thread.

 

[surplus1]

Re: clueless?

Does it not also follow by your own example that when things are bad there needs to be some give in order to assure the viability of the companies?
Give and take. Now may be the time to give a little in order that there may still be company around later from which to take when things get better.

The only problem with what you say is this. There IS no guarantee that the company will be around later.

A recent example is TWA. They gave and Icahn took. They gave again and Ichan left with a sweeheart deal the crippled the company. They gave again placeing themselves among the lowest paid for what they did. Three bankruptcies and today? There is no TWA. That is only one example.

It this case, the real Company is not CCAir, it is Mesa. Mesa is not in "need" and is in no danger of going out of business. CCAir is a paper organization that Mesa uses as a tool to control costs at Mesa. Before the contract that Mesa pilots now have (which is not good) there were many more shell companies under Mesa used in the same way that they are using CCAir today. Mesa pilots sacrificed much to end it. Now management is doing it again.

I know that what I say doesn't directly help CCAir pilots. They are d***ed if they do and d***ed if they don't. Victims in the game of corporate manipulation.

Their TA offers them a few more bucks and a "promise" of some job security that is not at all guaranteed. Those few bucks will undoubtedly come at the expense of their fellow pilots at Mesa and (although they don't appear to see it or at least one of them doesn't) at the expense of all regional pilots.

Ornestein (sp) doen't "own" CCAir and he personally wont lose a nickel if it goes under. He came to Mesa from another company where he helped to take advantage of the pilots there too. If he really wants CCAir to survive, he can merge it into Mesa and give the pilots credit for their seniority.

This game of shell corporations is a ploy of CEO's who want to defeat unions at the expense of employees, while they continue to feather their own nests. We as pilots need to stop it and we start by saying NO to shady deals like this one.

It may cause some immediate pain for some, but it is one more step in curing the cancer for all.

Beantown,

YES, I think ALPA SHOULD have the right to say no. I also think you as a group should have the wisdom to say NO without any help from ALPA. In this case, the issue is really not ALPA it's the chicanery of JO. You seem to be thinking about today. Think about tomorrow too, if you plan to make airline flying your career. If it's just your hobby, move on the pursue your career in economics. Avoid damaging other pilots in the process.

Ornesteing is tryin to get away with this because he KNOWS you all are divided. Come together and stand against him as one. Don't do it for ALPA, do it for yourselves.

 

[Beantown]

"There is no TWA"

Those pour pilots, they have to go fly for American. What a bad deal! They could have not taken the pay cuts, gone bankrupt long ago, gotten bought by no one and been on the street.
-Bean

 

[trainerjet]

Surplus 1 does another admirable job of trying to explain the situation to Beantown...but it's obvious he doesn't get it, and it's obvious he's not going to get it. I think he started this thread with his original post hoping to get someone to agree with him that ALPA shouldn't have the right to refuse a contract that the pilot group ratified. That really didn't happen, and after many attempts to explain the realities of what's going on and the reason's for ALPA's refusal to buy off on this sham, Beantown proves once again that there are some people who are only going to see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. Hopefully there are enough other pilots at CC Air that see this for what it is. Good luck to you all.

 

[Intruder One]

Mr. Bean........you sadely mistaken if you think any of us senior pilots want status que.I did not start here thinking I would be stuck here either.All you young wonder boys come into this industry thinking oh......it will never happen to me,I guess my 10.000 plus hours and a college degree didn't impress anyone,you guys have alot to learn.What happens 4 or 5 years from now if you don't get out ,J.O. sells us and another Lorenzo takes his place and wants to cut your pay ,when are you going to stand up to these type tactics.
Back to your earlier question ALPA should have the right to vote down a contract.Unlike you they have 60,000 plus pilots that this contact could hurt in the furture,that's why it is a union association not a me,me,me association.You know we are using a password to vote and everyone's is different so screw alpa now and see what happens to your big airline career!

THe lifestyle you so want in this industry has been made by ALPA for the most part if you can't support them when times get a little tough maybe you should consider you another career!

 

[Beantown]

Trainerjet wrote "I think he started this thread with his original post hoping to get someone to agree with him that ALPA shouldn't have the right to refuse a contract that the pilot group ratified"
-----------------
I started the post to get everyone's opinion. Nothing more nothing less. Surplus 1 has made many good points and I very much understand his point of view. I don't necessarily agree with him, I but I do GET IT. Your right, because he makes articulate, well thought out points, should I fold like a tent and kiss his as@. I don't think so. I believe, no matter what the context or the situation, if a Pilot group (or any group in a democratic environment) votes with a majority on anything, that there will should be upheld. There has been nothing said in this thread to convince me different.
I think Duane Woerth and his threats are no better then Mgmt and there threats. It is sad to see ALPA stoop that low. -Bean

 

[ddp]

Bean,

It is funny how the President of the US has veto power and you don't believe that the President of ALPA should.

I can't believe you actually believe in what you are writing. First you were not there three years ago when the ERJ situtaion was going on. So you only know what you have heard. Which since I work for CCAir also I know was not the whole truth. Second I can't believe you actually think some of our senior pilots don't want this because they can't make the upgrade to a jet. That type of comment is what keeps us separated at this company and keeps us from standing together against management. Management has you right where they want you. They have you doubting the people you should be trusting. You need to forget about what people say about the past and look at the real situtation in front of us now. Why do you think the senior guys would be out to get you? They are the ones who hold the seniority and they gain nothing from hurting you.

I want to know why you believe so strongly against a union that has done nothing but protect your safety, and worked for a better future for all pilots. That contract will take 15 years to recover from and because ALPA has been around the block a few times why are you not willing to conceed they know more than you about this? This fight is not just over your job. This is about thousands of pilots. Your selfishness is unexplainable to me.

Why don't you make your decision on the vote not with emotion but with the facts. And the facts are we have been offered a 5-year substandard contract (you have to agree with that). That contract offers no promise of you keeping your job, nor does it offer jets! What are you going to do when you lose pay cause now we fly 1900's and DH-8's. I hope you enjoy going back down to $18.00 with a top out of $23.63. You are buying into promises that are not backed up on paper. Give me just one guarntee you have on anything from the contract.

I know that some people don't agree with how things have been working in our ALPA for the last few years. But those same people are the ones that have never been to a meeting or done anything to help until now and now it's too late. Quit blaming others for things that we all should have done.

Our survival does not really depend on this contract. It depends on us as a pilot group standing with each other. To fight for what is right, for what we deserve. We must believe that everyone really wants the same things. A job where we want to go to work. I will not want to go to work under that new contract. Now you tell me why you do!

 

[surplus1]

Surplus 1 has made many good points and I very much understand his point of view. I don't necessarily agree with him, I but I do GET IT. Your right, because he makes articulate, well thought out points, should I fold like a tent and kiss his as@. I don't think so.

Thank you, Beantown. All I was trying to do is give you my perspective. You listened and I am appreciative. I don't expect you bend over and worship at the grail. Actually that would dissapoint me. However, I do hope you will give the matter more serious thought before you make your final decision. I'm sure you will.

I believe, no matter what the context or the situation, if a Pilot group (or any group in a democratic environment) votes with a majority on anything, that there will should be upheld. There has been nothing said in this thread to convince me different.
I think Duane Woerth and his threats are no better then Mgmt and there threats. It is sad to see ALPA stoop that low. -Bean

You have a very valid point with the above. The democratic process should not allow your majority vote to be ignored, but in this case it does.

Compare it to the anomaly of the Electoral College if you will. The people cast individual votes for the President. Those votes do NOT decide who becomes President. If they did GWB would not be in the Whitehouse today. The Electoral College is supposedly based on a plurality withing each State. To this day, we don't really know exactly what happened in Florida but there is considerable evidence that GWB was NOT the winner of Florida's popular vote (and no I don't want to debate it). The decision was essentially made by ONE man in the Supreme Court. Bottom line = Bush is President and we as Americans have to accept the result beacause that is the system that WE put in place.

ALPA is not a true democracy. It is acutally ruled by a handful of major airline pilots. That is not a good system and I happen to be an advocate of changing it. Like you, I don't think it is right. If I had the clout to do it, I would change the structure and install checks and balances. I might still give the ALPA President veto power over your contract, but I would also add a mechanism that could override that veto. Much like Congress can override the President's veto. That's what I would LIKE to do, but we don't have that right now.

Under the present system you have two choices: a) Accept the Presidential authority to override your popular vote; b) Decertify the union and set up a new one that is free from that procedure.

I believe your group recently tried to decertify but you lost the vote. Therefore, you have to accept the current situation. You don't have to LIKE it or agree with it but it isn't going to go away because of that. Attempts to change it would probably be fruitless simply because it is entrenched and your group is too small and has no influence. Democracy is a complex form of government. True Democracy doesn't exist in our national government. If it did, the rights of the minority would cease to exist overnight and eventually the Republic would fail. That may well come to pass in ALPA, but it's going to be a long time. The "little people" like you and me, simply do not have the political power to change it.

Perhaps the ALPA President is using "pressure tactics" to steer your course along his lines of thinking. That is a common political practice. Your group is free to call his bluff if you believe you should. Then we'll see if he will really refuse to sign your contract or if it is just a "threat". Before you'll know that, you must have the votes to pass the TA and pass it by a wide margin. Until DW actually declines to sign an agreement that the pilots have voted for by a substantial majority, you have no case. You have to put the cart before the horse. If you pass the TA and he refuses to sign it, you MAY have grounds to sue. I would warn you that it will be virtually impossible to win such a suit.

I wish you the best of luck. But I still think that you shouldn't fall for that TA. The promises that attract you are promises with no guarantee. I don't trust the maker. Apparently you do. That is where we really differ.

As the gambler sang "You gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em". Just the same, I admire you for being a man of principles.

 

[publisher]

ALPA

ALPA was voted in to represent the pilots at xxx airline. That is what they are supposed to do. They are not in at xxxx airline to be there for the good of all pilots, all airline pilots, etc.. .

This theory has always had problems because of the obvious. Can you represent Delta and Comair equally well.

The answer is always, no you cannot. He who pays the most dues wins.

DW is not going to lose his job over yours.

JO certainly can do what we wants with his money and his airlines. The example given above about Lorenzo and Contintental in a way is perfect. Which one is still here, Eastern or Continental. The Eastern pilots found themselves in the coss fire of union interests that were everything but theirs.

Anyone on here claiming that ALPA has nothing but their good at heart and that it treats all member pilots equally.

CCAir pilots should vote their opinions and if DW wants to reject it, then ALPA is no longer serving their fudiciary interest.

 

[nimtz]

Publisher:

The example given above about Lorenzo and Contintental in a way is perfect. Which one is still here, Eastern or Continental. The Eastern pilots found themselves in the coss fire of union interests that were everything but theirs.

Your analysis of the EAL strike is one of the dumbest I've ever seen. Did you fly for Eastern at that time, because I'd really like to know how you are certain that the pilots at Eastern were not so beaten down by Lorenzo that they didn't need to honor the IAM? Truth be told, Eastern was done for regardless of the strike (see Frank Borman) and the scabs at CAL are not to be credited for saving either the airline or their job. Read up a little bit before you make simple minded comments about an time period that ruined alot of good people's lives.

 

[Beantown]

Well, you guys win, the TA at CCAir was voted down by 3 votes! (a two vote swing) Anyone out there know who is hiring b/c I am going to be on the street in a week or so? Thanks ALPA National!! Great job. Another 142 pilots looking for jobs. -Bean

 

[dashflyer]

I'm glad to see these folks stood up for themselves, and the rest of the regional airline industry as well. Watch out Ornstein/Lorenzo, you can't make everyone work for pennies.

I hope someone similar to Exec Jet does what they did for the Midway folks(gave a lot of them jobs), to CCAir!

 

[Intruder One]

Mr. Bean....don't be so down it worked out as it should have.It amazes me that so many voted for ,thank god it wasen't enough.

We sent a message to J.O. that pilots will not work under any conditions.....now hopefully we can move toward a more workable contract.

You will not be out of work, I've seen harder times than this at this company.Believe me J.O. has alot more to loose than you do if he shuts it down.When things get better down the road ......and they will ,I hope you and others like you will have learned a valiable lesson .

 

[prodigal]

Hello Freedom Air.

 

[publisher]

nimtz

Nimtz,

Obviously in these messages, one must shorten the verbage. I have always placed the blame on Frank Borman. I felt he was a weak manager and did not take the steps he needed to much earlier.

The point here was that Lorenzo could and did move the assets and the one that survived was CAL. For my money, Frank L got somewhat of bad deal here in that his intention was to save a very bad situation. He as much as anyone was surprised by the attitude and positions taken by some.

That combined with the IAM leadership making it so personal was the end of Eastern. It ruined many lives and trust me I know a bunch of them. I stand by what I said.

I also stand by the point that a union is there to represent only the people at that particular company and not to defend on a class basis for the better of all or some other cause.