Cathay Pacific

[Little Bubba]

I don't see to many US based PAX guys leaving, hmm I wonder why...

 

[IFlyLow]

It takes about 2-3 years for a well intentioned American to burn out. Folks with prior airline experience have a difficult time adjusting to CX "training" culture, and embracing an inferior method, when they know better.
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Good luck, you will need it doing CX "training," everybody does.

Can someone give me some concrete examples of exactly what the training process involves and why it is so bad? How is it different from the U.S.? Specific details and FIRSTHAND examples would be great.

Thanks.

 

[vtwin]

I don't see to many US based PAX guys leaving, hmm I wonder why...

You know why... pay and time off on the PAX is significantly better. I already stated most folks are not leaving the freighter over the lower pay and rostering, so what is your point? Are you disputing the exodus on the freighter fleet? What, is it 11 guys in two months now? Must be a US based Canuck.

 

[vtwin]

Can someone give me some concrete examples of exactly what the training process involves and why it is so bad? How is it different from the U.S.? Specific details and FIRSTHAND examples would be great.

Thanks.

Here is one; your a former legacy carrier guy with 15 years in at XYZ.
You spend about 4 months in HKG doing initial training, pass your checkride
have your license signed, go home, celebrate and then get a phone call at 200am from HKG saying they changed their mind. "We noticed some inconsistencies occuring during your training after reviewing your file. Come back for more training, you don't have a problem with that do you?" Another 3 weeks for 6 more sectors and another 4 leg/sector linecheck.
Yes, it is bizzare.

Or, you pass your command assessment interview, go on a command course in HKG and get chopped after 3 months for allegedly not being able to communicate adequately with ATC because you had to ask some Asian controller to "say again" too many times and it is your fault, never mind that the checker did not understand the clearance either.


Need more examples? Truth here is stranger than fiction.

 

[Little Bubba]

No, I am an American that was based in the US when I was in the right seat. Currently HKG based but I'm goin back to LAX in a few months.

 

[vtwin]

No, I am an American that was based in the US when I was in the right seat. Currently HKG based but I'm goin back to LAX in a few months.

I all fairness, some folks get through training fine. But when pain is tailored made for some, all seem to be negatively effected by it. Again, it is very different here than at a US company and the learning curve is unnecessarily steep. Brits and Aussies have an uncanny ability to make flying unnecessarily very difficult. I once heard a guy describe it here as "pathologically anal" coupled with fear and intimidation which only works when you have a captive audience. Those willing to vote with their feet over the latter are, and will continue doing so apparently.

If you can play the game it might be for you, if you are faint of heart don't even bother, un-adventurous stay home. They don't have to play by the same rules US companies do. There is no union to protect you when they obsess over and exagerate your errors in the sim due to the insular and unhinged from reality nature of their training department. No good old anti-discrimination labor laws that I once poo-pooed as big government hysteria programs to fall back on when you bone up pissed off wanting to sue like any good old red blooded American should for being told to "Un-Americanise" yourself after your sim PC. You must have a sense of humor here and become bitter and twisted at the same time or you won't enjoy it. Sometimes I love it and other times I ......well, if I leave I still will be happy I tried it.

 

[hdodo]

Gents,
I'd like to clear some things up in my mind about pax fleet rostering and upgrade progression before I interview next month. I am interviewing for an SO position and if hired would like to stay on the pax fleet and progress to JFO, FO, etc. on the pax fleet and eventually be based out of LAX on the pax fleet. Nothing against cargo, I have done enough of that in the ANG and just think I'm more of a pax guy (plus the pay is better so why wouldn't ya?). After spending the requisite amount of time as an SO in HKG can one bid for pax fleet JFO based in LAX or do you have to be a full fledged FO to bid for and hold LAX on the pax fleet? I've tried to look this up on pprune but couldn't find an answer with all of the bickering that goes on there.
Thanks in advance. hdodo

 

[Little Bubba]

Think you can bid a base outside HK after one year.

 

[vtwin]

Gents,
I'd like to clear some things up in my mind about pax fleet rostering and upgrade progression before I interview next month. I am interviewing for an SO position and if hired would like to stay on the pax fleet and progress to JFO, FO, etc. on the pax fleet and eventually be based out of LAX on the pax fleet. Nothing against cargo, I have done enough of that in the ANG and just think I'm more of a pax guy (plus the pay is better so why wouldn't ya?). After spending the requisite amount of time as an SO in HKG can one bid for pax fleet JFO based in LAX or do you have to be a full fledged FO to bid for and hold LAX on the pax fleet? I've tried to look this up on pprune but couldn't find an answer with all of the bickering that goes on there.
Thanks in advance. hdodo

If your intentions are LAX and you have the mins why not go for DEFO? The regular line guys you fly with are great. Most captains are either switched on young Canadians grown in the CX petri dish from SO to jumbo captain or, HKG retreads who will broaden your social horizons. You will be able to go to the LAX pax fleet after 3 years on the freighter or thereabouts. I am not an expert on CX SO career progression. There are many hoops to jump through as a SO and if you fly with me your not allowed to even so much as touch the heading bug unless the skipper is in the bunk and I am in the lav (CX rules not mine).

Unless you want HKG and its air quality or have other motives for going there, DEFO is a better scheme in my opinion. Some DEFO's request HKG rosters right out of training but you don't get the housing allowance until your 3 years are up. Maybe a SO could help you more.

 

[i'mbatman]

Dismiss PPrune at your at your own expense. If you think everything is coming up roses at CX your making a miscalculation. Most Americans joined there thinking they had a keeper. Most, after experiencing the, "Cathay Way" are either leaving for there former legacy as recalled or, waiting for the opportune time to do so. Even with all the uncertainty. Many Canadians would scatter if they had the opportunities "Yanks" had. Many are applying to UPS/FEDEX, some are in the pool and others have already left. This just on the DEFO 744 freighter fleet.

It takes about 2-3 years for a well intentioned American to burn out. Folks with prior airline experience have a difficult time adjusting to CX "training" culture, and embracing an inferior method, when they know better. And Cathay is loath to admit they are adrift. You will never feel welcome, but if you have the mental toughness to surrender yourself to it then you could have some measure of job satisfaction but, don't delude yourself in this area. You will also find few Americans leaving over pay, basings, time off etc.

Good luck, you will need it doing CX "training," everybody does.

I didn't mean that I don't take Pprune material for what its worth. I have just found that I get more direct, straightforward answers here on flightinfo(wierd) than over at pprune on the subject of CX. These past few posts are what I'm talking about. Thanks! BTW...when you upgrade is it back to HK for another 4-5 months?

 

[vtwin]

I didn't mean that I don't take Pprune material for what its worth. I have just found that I get more direct, straightforward answers here on flightinfo(wierd) than over at pprune on the subject of CX. These past few posts are what I'm talking about. Thanks! BTW...when you upgrade is it back to HK for another 4-5 months?

Captain upgrade or the "command course" is done in HKG as is all the course
and recurrent training. You will do some freighter sectors also but only to ANC and the North American ports beyond that. Don't plan on getting home much during any course, your Initial or maybe someday Command. I drove my mates batsh+t because I was terrible homesick in HKG.

Many highly experienced US FO's have put in for an early Command and have been put off for an indefinite time period. It is not a seniority driven system and a Board, "The Star Chamber" can and does overide a Checkers affirmative decision when is comes to upgrade from SO to JFO or FO to Relief FO or FO to Skipper after reviewing your file which can contain some real nonsense. It remains to be seen how many of us Yanks will ever upgrade here on the freighter. Many are not willing to let other opportunities pass by like recall or UPS due to the serious uncertainties about that here. There are a lot of Command Course failures and not just on the 744 freighter fleet. Some guys get through and some guys don't and to me there appears to be no ryhme or reason with it. If you are from a US major or any company with decent training you will find the "training" here is both a surprise and dissapointment and, vastly inferior to any legacy carrier.

By they way, if you think PPrune is weird, wait till you start working with some of those guys at Cathay.

Best regards.

 

[hdodo]

If your intentions are LAX and you have the mins why not go for DEFO? quote]
I had sent my first app in almost 2 years ago and selected either SO/FO for the position desired as my hours were a little lower then. If I dazzled the snot out of the interviewers and they offered me a DEFO position on the frieghter fleet I would not turn them down, I just think it is very unlikely that will happen. I'd rather get started now on a career path with and stay with ONE very stable and well respected airline than have to worry about who my LCC or legacy airline is going to merge with 6-9 months down the road.

 

[vtwin]

If your intentions are LAX and you have the mins why not go for DEFO? quote]
I had sent my first app in almost 2 years ago and selected either SO/FO for the position desired as my hours were a little lower then. If I dazzled the snot out of the interviewers and they offered me a DEFO position on the frieghter fleet I would not turn them down, I just think it is very unlikely that will happen. I'd rather get started now on a career path with and stay with ONE very stable and well respected airline than have to worry about who my LCC or legacy airline is going to merge with 6-9 months down the road.

Good luck and I hope it works out for you. Yes CX is stable and respected
amongst certain industry circles but there are some things that will offset those positives as outlined earlier when you are on the bottom rung at this award winning airline. Not trying to rain on your parade just
go in with your head up and locked. No job is perfect but every American
should know what awaits them ahead of time in making a calculated decision
and I wish some folks would have been more forthcoming when I started here a while back. You must be prior military and with no former airline experience
to use as a frame of reference will probably improvise, adapt and overcome quit well.

The monthly schedules are pretty good as DEFO lately 17-19 days off during good months. 7-10 day patterns unlike some ultra long haul non skeds. No real reserve except A days which you will hardly ever work on. Major league jetlag to deal with on a permanent basis. Don't underestimate that. 100% Medical, No Dental. Good vacation and allowance.

Cheers

 

[hdodo]

It's good to get the whole picture, good and bad, so thanks for not sugar coating life and training at CX.

 

[Wolf King]

For any Americans out there looking at CX, vtwin is "spot on" in his observations, not an untrue word spoken. Beware that once you are sucked into the "training machine", it will be very difficult to escape to interview or pursue any other job leads for quite some time, possibly 4-6 months. If your hiring prospects in the US look reasonable, this could be a significant loss in seniority and pay in the long term if you miss any opportunity windows. Also note that you run a bit of a risk of blemishes on your training records that raise eyebrows in the US, but are par for the course at CX. As an American you run a significantly higher chance of meeting up with less objective evaluations from unchecked checkers. You will spend considerable amounts of effort to ensure your performance is up to standard, and in the end you will have less influence over the outcome. It is all about paying your dues here, but what dues should have been paid is a highly subjective matter, and varies widely in the eyes of the observer. Some will argue this point, but they will generally be captains who speak the Queen's English. You will live in a world where you will constantly be evaluated (PC, Loft, Line Check, etc.) every 2-3 months. It is a very thorny surreal atmosphere at times, and at times this makes success that much sweeter, much the same way fasting for three days will make a cheeseburger the best you ever had. Enjoy.

 

[vtwin]

"It is all about paying your dues here, but what dues should have been paid is a highly subjective matter, and varies widely in the eyes of the observer. Some will argue this point, but they will generally be captains who speak the Queen's English."


Some decent enough to admit that upgrading was not nearly as treacherous back when they did it, and wonder how anyone gets through now with every opportunity to fail readily provided.

 

[mach10]

Does anyone know if one is hired as a DESO (and also meet DEFO requirements) can opt for a DEFO class instead? I know the interview is very similar (except the sim eval). Will this raise any eyebrows at recruiting as to your desire to live in HK?

 

[Trogdor]

I really doubt that if they hired you as a DESO, they wouldn't have realized that you met the qualifications for DEFO. So something tells me that you can't tell them "I'm just going to sit in on the FO class instead."

 

[vtwin]

I really doubt that if they hired you as a DESO, they wouldn't have realized that you met the qualifications for DEFO. So something tells me that you can't tell them "I'm just going to sit in on the FO class instead."

Actually some DEFO qualified folks opt for SO because they want to live in HKG. Just be forthcoming and tell them you would like DEFO. They are not
as hung up on the HKG domicile issue as before and I have heard that some guys were not even asked about their willingness to move to HKG because
with the North American bases you never really have to. I would not worry about screwing myself out of SO by asking for DEFO. My guess is they would
be happy to have you as DEFO if you are qualified because they are short staffed, versus SO, but I have not had to deal with this issue personally.

 

[Trash8Mofo]

what is the deal with the whole Dragonair merger?
Also, let me recap: DEFO is possible on the pax fleet, with LAX basing? or is it just Cargo?
DEFO Cargo can go to FO-pax when one's number come up; is there any special process like having to resign your cargo senority number?
what is the 1st yr pay as a DEFO-Cargo guy?
How are those HK Cadit pilots in your opinion?
Is there anyway I can get ahold of the COS somewhere?
Much thanks in advance.