Cathay Pacific

[CCDiscoB]

I see these guys are hiring again. What's the latest concerning Cathay Pacific and labor relations? Last I heard they were still on the bad boy list and working for them = scab. Just curious, I'm not moving to Hong Kong but maybe one of you high-timers with your resume in at the same companies I have my resumes in at would like to apply.

 

[Jolly Roger]

Yeah,

The hiring ban is still on, but folks are taking jobs from what I hear. It's a real mess... folks are upgrading within the company while we call new joiners scabs. I certainly don't know the answer, but it is a shame that in such a downturn in the aviation job market a truly great job is off limits for now. I don't know that I agree with the ban, but I wouldn't be one to join under these conditions.

BTW, only those who joined after Oct 2001 (I believe it was roughly that) fall under the ban. It didn't really effect many until just recently since hiring had already stopped for a while at that time.... and CCDISCOB, once the ban is over get me a job in the Guard in an Eagle, and I'll get you one at Cathay wrestling the million pound beast!

 

[CCDiscoB]

That's a deal! Do I have to move to Hong Kong?

 

[Jolly Roger]

No, actually Cathay hires N. Americans to fill bases in LAX, Chicago, JFK, Anchorage, and Vancouver. It is of course possible to end up in Hong Kong at some point, but equally possible to remain in the US.

 

[edy]

Actually, if you apply as a s/o, you WILL be based in HK initally. Everybody is, NO exception. If you apply as a f/o (freighter fleet) circumstances differ. Pax bases and freight bases are slightly different. Anch. is not available for Pax. Primary domiciles for Pax in N.A. are YVR, LAX, and Kennedy.

Good Luck.

 

[MooseTrax]

Jolly Roger,

I didn't realize there was a ban. What is the problem that is trying to be worked out? When do you guys expect things to get back to normal and it be "o.k." to put in a resume`?

 

[Jolly Roger]

Since this is a North American forum, I am talking about the most common method of entry into Cathay by an American pilot with reasonable jet PIC hours: Direct entry F/O to the 747-400 freighter fleet on the mainline seniority. Since there are plenty of folks on this site in that category, my previous post stands correctly.

Once you've done three years on the freighter, you can option over to the passenger side for a bit of a pay raise, or continue to fly freight under pretty good working and pay conditions. Many a freight guy has gone over to the pax fleet this way (and maintained their same US base). Cathay has on occasion held folks over the three year point on the freighter, but in those cases they still got the pax pay, the best of both worlds!

There are a few Americans that have gone the S/O route and proceeded directly to Hong Kong and the circumstances you mentioned, but that route takes away two of the best things the freighter fleet offers: flying a widebody jet from T/O to landing (from the first day of flight training, not two years later), and living in the good old USA. (Not terrible starting freight pay either, over 78K the first year once you include allowances and additional Provident Fund, six weeks annual leave from day one, I could go on...).

I'm definitely not busting your chops, Edy, I should have been more specific.

 

[MooseTrax]

Good Reading On This Subject

https://www.alpa.org/internet/alp/2002/May-June_2002/may-june2002p20.html

http://www.ifalpa.org/Press Release/03PRL007_Reissue of Recruitment Ban.pdf

 

[edy]

No harm no foul Jolly Roger. Once upon a time, my decisions may have led us to meet on the freight side of things.

Happy Flying

 

[Spoolup]

Cathay

Whats the chance of somone going for the s/o position.

2100/360ME

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Why would anyone want to be labeled an IFALPA super-scab is beyond me.

I guess some folks see an opportunity somewhere and could care less about their profession.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Re: Cathay

Whats the chance of somone going for the s/o position.

2100/360ME

ROFLMAO.

Spoolup is why pilots are their own worst enemy.

 

[CCDiscoB]

I agree. One thing I've learned from months of reading this site, it’s "whatever it takes for a type rating." "I'm on a scab list, so what, I'll have a 744 type."

These guys need to get out more, ask, listen and learn. They have no idea just how incredibly horrible it would be to a career to have such a blazing, neon, scarlet letter attached to your name.

 

[Tref]

UNITED STATES CONGRESS ALERTED TO CATHAY PACIFIC PILOT DISPUTE

ALPA Warns U.S. Government Officials of the Potential for Eroding Labour Standards Worldwide

WASHINGTON, DC—This week, the Air Line Pilots Association, International (ALPA), the world’s largest pilots’ union, warned the United States Congress about the eroding standards for workers in Hong Kong that threaten to dismantle existing standards for labour relations worldwide. The current dispute between Cathay Pacific Airways and its pilots’ union, the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA), was cited as a prime example of this potential for global harm.

In a letter to several U.S. Senators and Representatives, ALPA asked the U.S. Congress to raise the dispute with Hong Kong Government officials. It further questioned Cathay Pacific’s consistent disrespect for accepted international labour conventions and the Hong Kong Government’s subsequent failure to intervene and end the impasse, now the longest running labour dispute in Asia’s history.

"The United States has always been at the forefront of pursuing improved rights and protection for workers. This is not limited to employees in the United States, but around the world as well. Consequently, ALPA is attempting to draw U.S. Government attention to the deplorable situation happening in Hong Kong at the hands of Cathay Pacific Airways. We believe that our government should be gravely concerned about a situation that is, in effect, serving to erode the standards for workers in the aviation industry throughout the world and in the U.S. We have urged Congress to help put an end to these shameful practices," said Captain Duane Woerth, President of ALPA.

Cathay Pacific Airways’ major shareholder is the international Swire Group, based in England, which also has major U.S. interests.

To date, 20 international labour organizations, representing 27 million workers around the world, have urged Cathay Pacific executives and Hong Kong Government officials to resolve this dispute. The AFL-CIO, the International Brotherhood of Teamsters and the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) have each expressed their concerns to the Hong Kong Government by specifically asking the Commissioner of Labour to take action. Despite repeated inquiries by these labour groups the Hong Kong Government has ignored all such requests.

Cathay Pacific’s use of tactics such as unjust termination and unauthorized contract revisions are illegal in the U.S. and throughout much of the rest of the world. The unwarranted firing of 51 pilots last July resulted in 49 lawsuits in four countries: Australia, Hong Kong, the United Kingdom and the United States. The HKAOA meanwhile has repeatedly attempted to open the lines of communication with company management to discuss these issues, but has been rebuffed on each and every occasion.

"We are grateful for the support of ALPA and its attempts to bring this matter to the attention of the U.S. Government," said John Findlay, HKAOA General Secretary. He continued, "Sadly, the deck is very much stacked against employees in Hong Kong. Our lack of protection allows companies such as Cathay Pacific to operate according to any set of principles they choose. This is a worrying practice for a company that also seeks to gain further access to the U.S with developing international agreements. No matter how many times we ask management to come back to the negotiating table, we are rebuffed. Now with the possible involvement of U.S. Government officials, we hope that Cathay Pacific management will realize the international embarrassment that this is causing our company and Hong Kong, and finally agree to sit down to talk."

 

[Dieterly]

The United States has always been at the forefront of pursuing improved rights and protection for workers.

Hmm.. 3 years at Mesa I managed to get 13 days of vacation (into my vacation bank), never managed to turn any of it into real vacation days. If they call that imroved rights then I wonder what un-improved rights are. Don't even get me started how they fired people at will (before ALPA came on the property). Again, is that beeing at the forefront?

 

[edy]

You know Tref, I have been at CX for nearly 7 years now, and I have never heard a CX pilot speak the way you do. What dates were you with the company.

If you were in fact an employee, then you would also know that many of us here, key word being many of us, disagree with this ban.

This does not mean I did not loose a couple of co-workers who were friends, as many of them are from NA where I was once based. It does not mean I don't think we need better pilot- management relations, but what airline doesn't? If you were in fact with us, you would, one would think, know more about the situation, which you seem to know nothing about. All you do is get defensive, and don't reply rationally.

I have not accepted promotion yet, many have. Those that have, indeed, have replaced their friends. The ban is unfair to newcomers who only are helping expansion. You should know this as a supposed x-employee with friends in the company. If we are to do something about the situation, what is happening is not it.

 

[Tref]

Hmmm, all I did was post something from the ALPA website. I guess they have no idea what's happening at CX either?! Oh, there I go being defensive again. It’s funny how people react that way when they are accused of lying.

I was at CX for more than three years in the late 90's. The only thing that bothered me more than the way mgmt treated people was the lack of unity of the pilots. I do, however, understand how ex-aus-dispute pilots are scared to death. Lucky for me, I could move back to the USA.

As far as friends at CX goes, I still have many and none that I have spoken with are against the ban. In fact one has told a life long friend that he would never speak to him again if he accepted a job at CX.

My friends at CX understand that what's happening is not only wrong, but that virtually anyone could be fired next. They also understand that anyone who ignores the ban is an IFALPA scab.

The only thing sadder than watching mgmt screw the pilots is seeing other pilots screw the pilots. You don't seem to mind. Kinda snuck in on the freighters anyway, huh? You know I always defended guys that came in from the freighter fleet while some were calling you all scabs. Was I wrong?

PS. Speaking of irrational:

You said, "I have not accepted promotion yet, many have. Those that have, indeed, have replaced their friends. The ban is unfair to newcomers who only are helping expansion."

Ummm, it wasn't just Captains that were fired, and anyone taking a pilot job at CX while any of the 49ers is on the street is replacing one of the 49ers. Isn't that more than a little unfair to them?

It's people like you who allow CX mgmt to get away with the terrible things they do. One of these days it could be you on the street wondering what the fck just happened while someone else is taking your job. Maybe you ought to think about that for awhile, instead of just dwelling on how the ban is keeping you from your command.

 

[BigFlyr]

My friends at CX understand that what's happening is not only wrong, but that virtually anyone could be fired next. They also understand that anyone who ignores the ban is an IFALPA scab.



You said, "I have not accepted promotion yet, many have. Those that have, indeed, have replaced their friends. The ban is unfair to newcomers who only are helping expansion."

Interesting thread...

I was not aware of the problem at CX until just recently. The views from those that are against the newhire Ban at CX is strikingly familiar to those that stayed at EAL during the strike...

Unfortunately, there will be a steady supply of airline pilot wannabees who will take advantage of this situation.

 

[maddog]

As a former CX pilot from N America, I would have to agree with Tref on many of his points. I left Cx during one of the darkest times in the late 1990's. A massive sick-out was taking its toll and management was hellbent on spending millions breaking the association. Our demands were not unreasonable, yet the company pissed away money fighting us for months. Now as I sit furloughed from a US major, I am still comfortable with my decision to resign 3 years ago. Things have not gotten better for the Cathay pilots since I have left and CX will not be happy till they treat the pilots like Singapore Airlines pilots or worse. That is a fact....

They will get the folks to join. Just offer a 1000 hour pilot a job in a 747 and they will be lining up. IFALPA ban or not.

 

[Rick1128]

Maddog,

Unfortunately you are correct that Cathy Pacific will in all likelihood get the pilots it needs. And it will be younger pilots who have no memory of what happened to those who crossed the line at companies like Wein, Eastern and United. Just ask those guys how great their careers have been since then. Not real good.

It is expected of Chinese companies to treat their employees in that manner. Yes, HK is part of China. It is suppose to be a special economic area, but do you really believe that? China is a country that openly flaunts international agreements on prison labor, worker health and safety, patents and copyrights. Do you really expect them to comply with a contract with a measly labor union?

 

[brucek]

No, actually Cathay hires N. Americans to fill bases in LAX, Chicago, JFK, Anchorage, and Vancouver. It is of course possible to end up in Hong Kong at some point, but equally possible to remain in the US.

If based in the US (say LAX), would you fly LAX-HKG-LAX, or do LAX hub crew fly internal (5th freedom?) flights within the US? I assume LAX-EGLL (Heathrow) is not a flight, since HKG - EGLL is a west-bound flight. So, other than flights to/from HKG, would need to be internal US flights, yes?

Thanks,

Bruce.
BJC, Jeffco, CO

 

[aviator1x1]

ATPL

I understand that Cathy Pacific hires North American pilots with certain minimum qualifications, one of which is an ICAO ATPL.
Has anybody been hired with an FAA ATP only? How do you get an
ICAO ATPL? Can you convert FAA ATP into ICAO ATPL?
Thank you.

 

[Jolly Roger]

The bottom line is that Cathay accepts the US ATP, and the employee must take a series of equivelency exams in order to obtain a Hong Kong Commercial or ATP rating, which the Hong Kong CAD determines. Tests are not too difficult and take a week or so.

 

[Tref]

30 September 2002

IFALPA Issues Reminder to Member Associations of Recruitment Ban Against Cathay Pacific Airways

In their continued support for the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA), which represents Cathay Pacific’s 1600 pilots, the International Federation of Air Line Pilots’ Associations (IFALPA) issued Monday, 30 September 2002, a reminder to pilots around the world of their ban against Cathay Pacific.

Captain Ted Murphy, President of IFALPA, which represents over 100,000 pilots in 95 countries worldwide, issued the following statement about the ongoing recruitment ban:

“As President of IFALPA, I wanted to remind our pilots of the recruitment ban that was put in place in July of 2001, when Cathay fired 51 skilled pilots without cause. No member of
our Federation should be subjected to the kind of abysmal treatment Cathay Pacific has continuously demonstrated against its pilots. Cathay Pacific does not treat its employees with respect and dignity, and regularly goes against international labour protection norms.

Given Cathay’s recently renewed recruitment efforts, I wanted to remind our Member Associations of the recruitment ban IFALPA put in place. We reserve this sort of activity for extreme circumstances, and the Cathay situation certainly warrants such treatment. Today, this ban continues to be highly respected by professional pilots the world over, and ensures that they are fully aware of the fractious corporate culture and poor industrial relations at Cathay Pacific.

If they need to hire pilots, I know of 51 highly qualified andidates who are ready to go back to work. If Cathay Pacific hires these pilots back, we would be happy to discuss removing the recruitment ban. Until that time, we will continue to advise our member pilots not to engage in recruitment activities with Cathay Pacific, but instead wait for openings at airlines that value their employees and safeguard basic labour protections.”

For further information, please contact:

Rick Brennan
IFALPA Professional Affairs Consultant
(44) 1932 579030
[email protected]

Captain Dennis Dolan
IFALPA Principal Officer
(1 202) 797-4023
[email protected]

 

[Expat]

I feel very bad for my brother pilots out at Cathay. However, there is one thing to remember. Hong Kong is part of China, albeit in an SAR, but still part of CHINA. The chinese are not noted for their tolerance of labor unions.
As for S/O my mate who works out there as an s/o (pre-ban) says that most s/o candidates have at least JAA theory if not a JAA "frozen ATP". Reason being, unless you have significant jet or operational experience, FAA piston training alone will not give you the knowledge and experience required to pass the interview. The sim is a 744 flown raw data only, no A/P or director allowed to be used. A very good book exists "How to pass your CathaY Interview" by Cptn X, Y and Z.
Personally I'd love to work out there, but I wont cross the line. Nor do I fancy being subject to Chinese labor laws (contradiction in terms) in the future.

 

[mar]

Crossing the 'line'.

Expat--I can respect your intention to honor the 'recruitment ban' but let's call it what it really is: a recruitment ban.

There is no 'line'. There is no strike. There can be no scabs.

I don't know what you call a person that doesn't respect the recruitment ban (I'm sure someone will have a few choice suggestions) but I get awfully tired of misplaced rhetoric.

Eventually misplaced rhetoric has the same effect as crying wolf.

Let's save it for when we really strike then I'll walk that line with you--proudly.

Til then, peace.

 

[CRJ200FO]

Just because there isn't an official strike doesn't mean that there won't be consequences for ignoring the hiring ban. If you look at the end of the SCAB list you'll see the names of the CAL preferential hire list. They never actually crossed the line, but ALPA included their names on a seperate list. They could always do the same for pilots that don't honor the hiring ban at Cathay. It's just not worth risking.

 

[edy]

crj 200 f.o, GIA by any chance.

 

[ceo_of_the_sofa]

'splain something tew me, ladies...

Where's this scab list kept at? Does HR look at it when doing the hiring, or does the chief pilot use it as a check list, while looking for drivers? Wouldn't you think that anti-union majors would instruct their HR departments and senior chief pilots to turn a blind eye to the practice of scabbing?