Cathay Pacific. "The real story"

[rvsm410]

Cathay Dispatchers?

Good stuff on the company, glad to see someone happy with there choice of employment. Just wondering if they require the use of dispatchers, and if so what the qualifications are if you know, where they release from and where I send an application?

Thanks,

Col. Bill

 

[klhoard]

Twotter...Upgrade from SO to FO is MUCH different than here in the US. They have many levels of FO's there...I did some research on them awhile back and it seems to take something like 10 years to get through the ranks of the FO's. Something like you start out on a "reserve" then move to junior FO (basically an enroute only FO...no TO's or Landings), then FO, which gives you something like 3 or 4 TO's and landings per month, then finally senior FO which is like our FO's here in the states. Plan on a few years at each spot before even getting close to captain upgrade...so 2-3 years at each FO spot gives you something like 8-12 years as an FO...now add in the time you will spend as an SO...man, you could be on your deathbed before you get a shot at the left seat.

I must agree that airgators avatar freakin' RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So how many levels of "Captain" are there?!?!?!?!

 

[USNFDX]

Tell The whole story

I'm not a Cathay expert. I have a bud who works there and just upgraded and he likes it.

HOWEVER,

He said they joke about being on basicaly a 6 month contracts....If they don't like you, you wouldn't pass your 6 month prof check, which are extremly tough.

No seniority system. They upgrade who they want, when they want, if they like you. No trip trades, you fly your assigned schedule. They do not recognize mil leave....why should they?

Just some things to think about!

 

[Guam360]

Capt. Underpants,

Gocie more. Hoe qaan dit?

I'll be in HK the end of July to visit.

take it easy.

 

[starchkr]

klhoard...


I don't know about levels of Capt's...I kinda got sick of reading about "levels" after the whole FO part. I couldn't believe that they did things that way... Apparently they are not short of people willing to do it though. Everything else seems to be really nice about the company however. Great pay, pretty good schedules, and QOL seems to be very nice. Just that darn FO ladder

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

As a Capt who frequently flies with VERY inexperienced F/O's I am very happy with the structure. By the rank I can instantly see what sort of experience level I am flying with and plan accordingly.


For those who don't know, here are the ranks:

• S/O. NOT an engineer. New joiner level on the A340 and B744.
• S/O MFF (Mixed fleet flying) - specifically on the Airbus. Allows for in-flight relief (pee breaks and non-bunk rest) on the A330 for Australian flights. Neither S/O positions are window seats in anything other than the cruise phase. One stripe. Designated eater and capt's sexual advisor.
• JF/O (Junior F/O). Immediately on upgrade and for about 1 year after upgrade, conditional on passing the "QL" (qualified to the line) check. Window seat, some restrictions on max crosswind and approach minima as PF with line captains - 10 kts maximum. Two stripes.
• F/O. On passing the QL. 15 kts max crosswind and lower minima. Two and a half stripes. MFF starts.
• SF/O. Senior F/O. MFF, almost all relief flying (relief commander in charge) while capt sleeps on ULH flights (> 11 hours duration). Three stripes. Very little handling other than on the B777. Personally, I averaged <1.3 landings and takeoffs per month (as PF) for over 7 years as relief.
• Upgrade to Captain. Some minor restrictions to start, then up to aircraft limits. Four stripes. After about 1 year as Captain, upgrade to Senior Captain, salary level change only.

Please no PM's on salaries, I don't know. There are about 17 or 19 different conditions of service, dependant on date of hire, country of residence and history with CX or if you're on the freighter.

Good luck all.

 

[bafanguy]

Cpt. Underpants ( hilarious name, by the way...),


Why does a long-time, world class airline like Cathay have "VERY inexperienced FO's". I get the impression people are knocking themselves out just to get an interview. Are you not getting applicants with lots of jet time ? And what is "VERY inexperienced..." in the circumstances you describe.

And, I'm not looking to apply...just curious. Thanks.

 

[sgu]

As a Capt who frequently flies with VERY inexperienced F/O's I am very happy with the structure. By the rank I can instantly see what sort of experience level I am flying with and plan accordingly.


For those who don't know, here are the ranks:

• S/O. NOT an engineer. New joiner level on the A340 and B744.
• S/O MFF (Mixed fleet flying) - specifically on the Airbus. Allows for in-flight relief (pee breaks and non-bunk rest) on the A330 for Australian flights. Neither S/O positions are window seats in anything other than the cruise phase. One stripe. Designated eater and capt's sexual advisor.
• JF/O (Junior F/O). Immediately on upgrade and for about 1 year after upgrade, conditional on passing the "QL" (qualified to the line) check. Window seat, some restrictions on max crosswind and approach minima as PF with line captains - 10 kts maximum. Two stripes.
• F/O. On passing the QL. 15 kts max crosswind and lower minima. Two and a half stripes. MFF starts.
• SF/O. Senior F/O. MFF, almost all relief flying (relief commander in charge) while capt sleeps on ULH flights (> 11 hours duration). Three stripes. Very little handling other than on the B777. Personally, I averaged <1.3 landings and takeoffs per month (as PF) for over 7 years as relief.
• Upgrade to Captain. Some minor restrictions to start, then up to aircraft limits. Four stripes. After about 1 year as Captain, upgrade to Senior Captain, salary level change only.

Please no PM's on salaries, I don't know. There are about 17 or 19 different conditions of service, dependant on date of hire, country of residence and history with CX or if you're on the freighter.

Good luck all.

IF hired as a F.O. will i be hired as a JFO or F.O. How long does it take to become a S.F.O.? I am trying to piece together info so I can apply to CP.

 

[TonyC]

As a Capt who frequently flies with VERY inexperienced F/O's I am very happy with the structure. By the rank I can instantly see what sort of experience level I am flying with and plan accordingly.

I'm wondering if you'd care to comment on the environment since the Industrial Action and Hiring Ban have been lifted. Were there pilots who accepted employment during the ban, and if so, how are they treated now?

How have the 49ers fared? (Besides the one that fell from a balcony)

I'll appreciate your response.

 

[blade230]

The very inexperienced FO's Capt U is referring to is the cadet entry pilots. When these guys hit the line as SO's, they average under 200 hours of actual flight time behind the stick of an aircraft, not sim. When they hit JFO, they may have 2000-3000 hours, but it is still 200 hours of actual aircraft "stick"time. They do have many many hours of Sim time however.


This is how it works in the majority of the world. ie, outside of N America.

JAL, BA, Lufthansa, easyJet, Dragonair, etc. etc. But with these companies they get stick time right of the bat. No reliefing.

 

[Cathay747400]

If you get hired you go one of two routes; Senior F/O on the freighter or S/O on the pax fleet. We have two routes for S/O's. Ab initio or direct entry. We have some guys hired as S/O's that were 73 capt's at Ansett, so I was told. They wanted seniority and took the first slot. The rest of the S/O's have mixed backgrounds. The ab initio are no different than say Lufthansa or Japan or All Nippon. They go through a rigirous selection and then to Australia for like a year or more. I tell you though, I met a lot of the Ab initio guy's and I know there is no way I would have made it through what they had to go through, I mean holy hell. So Cathay has many ways of of entry, All are fair. It is the greatest job all in all. Major growth again and we are breaking records for passenger and freight carried.

Again I say the training is tough. Checkrides are tough. But If I can do it anyone can. So apply, that's it.

PLK
744F
JFK

 

[bafanguy]

Cathay747400 & Capt. Underpants,


This whole system you describe is a bit mysterious to me. I guess it's so far from what we have here that I find it confusing. First, why do established, well-respected airlines like Cathay, Singapore, JAL, Lufthansa, etc. NEED a cadet program ? In the aviation world, pilot careers with these companies must be highly valued. Aren't experienced people lining up at the door ? Don't you have the traditional sources of pilot applicants ?

Second, what value is 2000-3000 hours of warming up a jumpseat ? The SO's may have a lot of "watching" time but, as you indicated, very little stick time. You'd think you'd want these cadets to gain hands-on experience as quickly as possible so they could be actual productive assets. It seems "watching" time would quickly have a limited value.

I'm not being critical, just curious. I know there's more than one way to skin the cat. If anything, I support giving opportunities to lower time pilots provided they have solid training/apptitude. But it seems they need to actually grab the thing by the handlebars sooner rather than watch.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Cpt. Underpants]

First, why do established, well-respected airlines like Cathay, Singapore, JAL, Lufthansa, etc. NEED a cadet program ?

One word: Politics. No Air Force or GA in HKG, so no "traditional" sources of applicants from HKG. CX is still primarily a UK owned company, and if they want to do business in HKG, they play the game.

Aren't experienced people lining up at the door ?

Yes. Over 5000 current applications on file at any one time.

Don't you have the traditional sources of pilot applicants ?

No. See above.

Second, what value is 2000-3000 hours of warming up a jumpseat ?

Multi crew requirements are met at minimal cost while the S/O experiences all aspects of the operation from an observers seat.

You'd think you'd want these cadets to gain hands-on experience as quickly as possible so they could be actual productive assets.

I would rather not have a 200 hour greenhorn as my F/O when the chips are down, on a dark and stormy night, thanks. I could make you shudder with experiences I have had with some of my JF/O's and F/O's in the past. Frankly, I just don't get paid enough for some of the B-S I have to catch, day after day after day...

 

[bafanguy]

Capt. U,


Thanks for the insight; it could only come from an insider like you. Having led a very sheltered life at a US major, I realize there is a lot about the workings of the profession I don't know. That's why getting to talk with you folks here is so interesting.

Allow me to revisit one issue: you mention some experiences with low-time FO's ( "...200 hour greenhorns..." ). So, under Cathay's system, the FO who is 200 hours stick time + 3000 hours jumpseat time is a better product than a guy who jumped right into full time rt seat occupancy after his initial 200 hours and maybe now has 2000 hours actual, functioning FO time when you encounter him ? I'm having trouble processing the concept of jumpseat time as a valuable credential beyond 100 hours or so. As we all know, flying is very much a hands-on activity.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Flying 10+ hour legs on an Airbus is not exactly "hands-on". It's more like "hands-off". I would much rather have an FO with three years SO time on the aircraft, than a three month FO straight out of a fighter jet, thanks...

 

[BigMotorToter]

At JAL (JALways), all my uniform pieces were paid for. Including 9 shirts and 9 ties. We were also paid about $2500/month perdiem on top of our salary during training. Free flight bag and suitcase,free headset,flashlite etc... If I want a new bag or headset, I just go to Narita ops and they give me a new one. I am not trying to compare co.'s, I just wanted to note a few things that the author of this topic said "nobody else does".

On the subject of F/O's at these foreign airlines and their experience, at JALways there are no F/O's hired that I know of that have less than 5000 hours. Now JAL mainline is different. The newhires start what is a 5 year program, from which they go from 0 time to right seat of a heavy. They go to a school in the Napa valley to get there tickets and basic flight time, then spend an eternity in ground school and sims. Usually half wash out. The Japanese instructors really hammer these guys for years.

 

[USNFDX]

Flying 10+ hour legs on an Airbus is not exactly "hands-on". It's more like "hands-off". I would much rather have an FO with three years SO time on the aircraft, than a three month FO straight out of a fighter jet, thanks...

Maybe, I miss understand you.............But are you not contradicting yourself. It seems to me the fighter guy has actualy "flown" an aircraft, while the f/o, s/o or even the Capt has done nothing more than clicked off the autopilot to land the plane.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Maybe, I miss understand you.............But are you not contradicting yourself. It seems to me the fighter guy has actualy "flown" an aircraft, while the f/o, s/o or even the Capt has done nothing more than clicked off the autopilot to land the plane.

No, I just believe that Cathay knows that there is little "stick time" invovled in their flying. I am sure they don't hire those who lack those skills, however, flying ultra long-haul is 98% autopilot. It stands to reason that they should hire relief pilots and train them over a period of years, than a pilot with 2000 hours in an RJ or fewer in a tactical jets and try to mold them in a matter of a few months...

 

[rwelch]

If selected to join as an SO is there any chance of getting one of the U.S. pax bases?
Also, what is starting salary for an SO?
How about commuting?
Thanks
rwelch

 

[center]

1. If selected to join as an SO is there any chance of getting one of the U.S. pax bases?
2. Also, what is starting salary for an SO?
3. How about commuting?
Thanks
rwelch06-29-2004 23:14



To answer your questions in order.

1. No
2. Depends on current COS and "current payscale" but about 55-60 US
3. No (you can try it at your own risk) but no commuter language in our COS
whatsoever.... remember, no "jumpseating" here at CX. You must purchase passes.