Cathay Cargo Questions - Atlanta Base

[Cpt. Underpants]

Bubba

Having flown all the types currently in CX, IMHO the Airbus is by far the most complex technically and operationally. The issue is complicated by the fact that most of the guys attempting command courses are unfamiliar with the type (switching from a long haul type to the 777 and A330), the seat (and all that entails) and the area of operations.

It needs a lot of work on the conversion itself, total familiarity with the aircraft and systems, SOP's and a thorough knowledge of the Vol 1 and Vol 2 Pt 2. (FOM's). Again, in my opinion, it's just too much for some guys and they implode under pressure.

Shame, really.

 

[Little Bubba]

Capt U

Don't think you are typed on the 777...

 

[FreightGod]

but the freighter would average 40% or more at times.

One would think that a 40 % failure rate indicates a flaw in the training department, or the wrong profiles in the recruitment process...?

Instead of failing folks, why not give them extra time or training?
Some airlines make the pre-test, or the "day-before" harder and more demanding: easier on the candidate as there is no pink slip involved and the real test or check-ride the next day will not be as nerve wrecking since "yesterday" went fine.

Have seen that kind of thinking a few places, but not in the Far East.

 

[ERJdca]

flaw in the training department,.

Geez, i wouldn't know where to start on this one. I do agree with Capt Undies that it is the intent to see most guys succeed but......

 

[skyward80]

I think to say it's a flaw might be an American way of trying to understand an Asian way of thinking (with British military influences). I agree that the 40% rate is quite high, but if they're the ones signing the paycheck they can pretty much do it how they want. Chances are nothing will change unless it starts to undermine their bottom line. Judging by what I've read, their bottom line is not really a concern right now.

Skyward80

 

[FreightGod]

but if they're the ones signing the paycheck they can pretty much do it how they want

Sure they can do whatever they want, and they are surely doing it..

The point I was trying to make is that something must be wrong somewhere if their carefully screened and highly trained candidates experience a failure rate of 40%.

I have done a similar training course in Japan some years ago and those guys are also trying to pump up the "difficult level" to the point of us having to memorize the check lists.
(Sort of defeats the purpose of the check lists if ya have to do it from memory.. )

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Indeed the training is very hard abroad (or too easy here in the States, depending of how you look at it) but the argument of "it is the training departments fault" in CX or companies in Japan is simply not a viable argument (not saying right or wrong, just stating the way it is) because companies like CX, NH, JA for example. They are convinced because of their safety records that their system is correct and that it produces results further down the line. They do interview a lot of folks and very few make it to training and once there the failure rate is high, seems that on average the folks that go through training in Japan for example two-thirds make it to the line. Again, right or wrong is on the eyes of the beholder because to them their system works and is at the core of their safety record.

 

[Bjammin]

Attention!!

Starting Jan 08 there will be no more frighter DEFO's!

All new FO joiners will be able to fly PAX and freight.

The new pay scale is combined, but provides the same compensation over a 10 year period as the old freight to PAX conversion. Basically alot more money up front compared to the old scale, but not the big jump going from the freighter FO to PAX FO as it is now.

No one currently hired will be required to change to the unified pay scale.

The retirement age is also raised to 65 across the board.

All good stuff from my point of view, but i'm sure someone will find something wrong with the new agreement.

 

[FreightGod]

"it is the training departments fault" in CX or companies in Japan is simply not a viable argument

Well, I am not really saying IT IS the training departments fault, rather I am asking if the failure rate is due to a flaw in the training or the hireing?

Train to proffeciency seems to be the norm in most airlines, but of course if a candidate keeps flunking the check rides he is in the wrong job, which is why screening is part of the process.

Not saying CX is doing the wrong thing, just wondering where the problem lies..?

 

[ERJdca]

All good stuff from my point of view, but i'm sure someone will find something wrong with the new agreement.

I would say the Majority finds something wrong with it. If the G.C. doesn't recommend it for a vote and the company imposes it anyway its not exactly all good stuff.

 

[Little Bubba]

Bjammin,

Do you think you are goin to upgrade quicker with COS 08 than COS 99. (what bjammin failed to mention is that retirement went up from age 55 to age 65)

 

[Dumb Pilot]

Not saying CX is doing the wrong thing, just wondering where the problem lies..?

I work in Japan, not in CX. But for what I have seen here, they don't believe that there is a problem, little alone the cause of it

 

[rhinodriver]

Absolutely there are things wrong with it!!!!

No you will not even out if you join on the new scales. The new unified first officer scale tops out at year ten (as does the freighter) but the passenger scale continues to year 14. That relieves the company of having to pay 4 of the highest earning years on the scale. By the way... with 65 here now upgrade will not happen until likely year 11-13. Unless you want to take an early freighter command....

By my math (which is always a challenge) if I switch over to the new scale I'll be down about $61K over ten years. That means anybody who is hired on CoS 08 is going to be hired on less conditions than we already enjoy as the company enjoys record profits.

A load of crap is what it is!!!!

 

[rhinodriver]

Now that I've vented....

Let me just say that I like the job and this is still a good place to be. Every company has its issues....

 

[highflyer7]

what is the new starting pay starting in January?

 

[Bjammin]

The new starting pay is $73,440 a year, plus $13 an hour for flight hours between 70 an 84. 82 hours is the norm for me. Also add the per diem and the 15.5% base pay retirement you can get in CASH.

This means more money in your pocket earlier rather then later.

If you figure both the old and new scales out over a 10 year period they equal.

If someone was stupid and changed over to the new scale just before going over to the PAX fleet then they would be out huge amounts of money.




Rhino,
About half way down the Unified pay scale paragraph in the notice it states that current FO's will not be asked to accept the new pay scale.

 

[Little Bubba]

Bjammin,

Do you think you are goin to upgrade quicker with COS 08 than COS 99. (what bjammin failed to mention is that retirement went up from age 55 to age 65)

 

[FreightGod]

I work in Japan, not in CX. But for what I have seen here, they don't believe that there is a problem, little alone the cause of it

Is there a similar 40% failure rate on upgrades over there as well?

 

[rhinodriver]

still pessimistic...

Rhino,
About half way down the Unified pay scale paragraph in the notice it states that current FO's will not be asked to accept the new pay scale.

Oh I read it... But what it failed to say anything about was if they will require all first officers to take the unified scale once the bases go onshore. If you remember, the proposed contract that the union didn't put to the members included that provision. So now the company imposes what they want on us but fail to mention if the scenario I raise will happen even though it was clearly a part of the first CoS 08.

Not sure when you will make the jump to the passenger fleet Bjammin, but for guys like me that are still 2 years away this could have serious consequenses.

The part in the contract that talks about how the unified first officer pay will be in line with freighter to passenger pay may be true for some regions of the world but certainly not USAB. Either way the guys that join now will make less than you in the long run. That seems wrong.

Good luck on your RT/PC!

 

[Bjammin]

Bjammin,

Do you think you are goin to upgrade quicker with COS 08 than COS 99. (what bjammin failed to mention is that retirement went up from age 55 to age 65)

It had to be increased at some point. Better now with the airline expanding then just about any other time.

Lots of guys are flying now past 55 and many more will not want to fly past age 60.



Rhino,

Can you explain how a guy joining now will make less money? I've done the math and it all looks OK.

I truly don't think any of us going from freighter to PAX have anything to worry about, our scales are set. I for one might seriously consider going to another carrier if they screw me that bad.