Ca't figure out this holding instruction

[Anne]

I flew with a CFI yesterday, for some instrument brush up. He told me to track to the VOR, then hold west of the VOR on the 090° radial. I thought he messed up. But he insisted he was right, that I would physically be on the 270° radial, but heading 090° inbound. I can't make sense of this. I guess I must need more brush up than I thought!

 

[Vector4fun]

Anne,

The term "Radial" refers to: A magnetic bearing extending from a VOR/VORTAC/TACAN navigation facility. (This is straight out of the Pilot/Controller Glossary)

So if you were holding due West of the VOR, you were indeed on the 270 degree Radial . However, to hold with an inbound leg towards the VOR, you would naturally set the OBS to 90 degrees TO the VOR, so the CDI needle senses correctly. That is, a CDI needle deflected to the left means you have to correct to the left.

If you were confused because the CFI used the term "Radial" to define a course TO the VOR, then HE is confused, not you.

Is that what you wanted to hear?

 

[Neal]

messed up

Anne,

Yes that CFII is messed up. You can't hold west of the VOR and be in the 090 RADIAL. You would be on the 270 radial, but when flying inbound on the hold your vor would be tuned into 090 for the correct sensing.

If you were to hold EAST of the vor then that would be the 090 radial.

Bottom line is that your CFII made a mistake and should have told you to hold on the 270 degree radial not the 090 radial.

Mark

 

[Anne]

Thanks guys. I couldn't see how I could hold on the 090° radial west of the VOR. He was so insistent, drawing pictures and all. He said 090° radial and not course, and he said it many times. And, yes, the fix was the VOR itself.

Sometimes what seems so clear to me scares me into thinking maybe I am so dense I can't see the forest for the trees

 

[Anne]

Ok, I just talked to my CFI and he pointed out these questions from the Instrument knowledge test:

Question 4618 and 4619.

4618: "Hold west of the 15 DME fix on the 086 radial of ABC VORTAC, 5 mile legs, left turns

4619: Same except hold on the 266 radial.

The graphic is exactly the same in both, with the inbound course being 086, on the 266 radial.

I'm confused again Is that an error in the book?

 

[Neal]

funny

yes they are the same hold (or look the same) HOWEVER, one is on the west side of the Vortac and one is on the east side of the vortac.

Draw it out to help you visualize it better.

266R--------^(15DME)--------<vor>-----------^(15DME)------086R

---this is west of VOR | this is west of DME fix

Make sense?

Mark

 

[avbug]

Anne,

They might appear similiar, but the holding directions you just provided mean that one airplane would be holding fifteen miles east of ABC VORTAC, and one airplane will be holding fiteen miles west of ABC VORTAC.

This is because the 15 DME fix on the 086 radial is fifteen miles east.

The 15 DME fix on the 266 radial is fifteen miles west.

Graphically, they'll both be depicted similiarly; both will have the hold depicted on the west side of the fix (to the left, if you're drawing it with north at the top of your paper). However, if the holding directions are to hold west on the 15 DME fix, 086 radial ABC VORTAC...the hold will take place fifteen miles east of ABC VORTAC. The inbound leg to the fix will be away from the VORTAC, tracking the 086 radial outbound to the 15 DME fix.

If the holding directions are to hold west of the 15 DME fix, 266 radial ABC VORTAC, the hold will take place fifteen miles west of ABC VORTAC. The inbound leg to the fix will be toward the VORTAC, tracking the 266 radial inbound to the 15 DME fix. If the book depicts other than that, or your instructor indicates otherwise, both the book, and your instructor, are wrong.

 

[Anne]

I looked again at the graphics. There is definitely an error. The first question, holding to the west at 15 DME on the 086, shows the fix as a VOR, rather than as a triangle. The next question, holding west on the 266 at 15 DME, shows the fix as a triangle. When I looked at question 4618 and saw the VOR as the holding fix, I also "saw" the VOR as the fix in the next question. That is why it didn't make sense. Both holding fixes are 15 DME, one east of the VOR, one west. Now it makes sense. Both should be triangles.

I will point this out to my CFI. He believes that if told to hold north on the 180 radial, that it only makes sense that you are on the 360 radial with the 180 radial tuned in.

Which got us discussing this even further. If he tells me to track to the VOR from due west, I center the needle on 090 "to" and track it in, even though I am on the 270 radial from the station. He says it is no different from his first example: hold west on the 090 radial--tune in the 090 radial "to".

But when I hear holding instructions, the first thing I hear is the radial I will be on inbound. If he says hold on the 090 radial, in my mind I will be on the 090 radial inbound to the VOR on a course of 270. If I hear hold west on the 090 radial I will be asking for clarification. He says that doesn't make any sense because if I hear hold west on the 090, I will west of the VOR with a 090 course inbound, that ATC will describe the hold as the inbound course. I say baloney.

 

[Neal]

controller

Anne,

No controller will ever tell you to "hold north on the 180 radial if the holding fix is the vor"

They will say "hold north of the vor on the 360 radial"


BTW, if your instructor says this ......"If he tells me to track to the VOR from due west, I center the needle on 090 "to" and track it in, even though I am on the 270 radial from the station. He says it is no different from his first example: hold west on the 090 radial--tune in the 090 radial "to". "

He is wrong and it is time to get a new instructor!

Mark

 

[avbug]

But when I hear holding instructions, the first thing I hear is the radial I will be on inbound. If he says hold on the 090 radial, in my mind I will be on the 090 radial inbound to the VOR on a course of 270.

Anne,

That thinking will only confuse you when you do need to execute a hold. If you listen only to the radial and then try to visualize that as being in bound to the VOR, you'll confuse yourself.

In your example above, you use the 090 radial. However, you could be holding inbound to the VOR, or away from it. For example, if you're told to hold at ABC VORTAC and hold east on the 090 radial, left hand turns...you'll be inbound to the VOR on a course of 270 on your inbound leg...just as you suggested.

However, if you are told to hold west on the ABC VORTAC 090 radial, 15 DME fix, left hand turns...your inbound leg to the fix will be away from the VOR, heading 090.

Your inbound leg is not always toward the navaid, but toward the fix. When holding at a fix, you may be inbound toward, or away from the navaid, depending on the holding instructions.

 

[Anne]

Avbug, once again, you are right

Thanks you guys for helping me sort this out.

 

[acaTerry]

Anne,

I wish you were here right now in front of me. With a paper and pencil, I could draw it out quick and make it EASY for you. Maybe your CFI needs a little instruction himself

 

[bobbysamd]

Holding clearances

I flew with a CFI yesterday, for some instrument brush up. He told me to track to the VOR, then hold west of the VOR on the 090° radial. I thought he messed up. But he insisted he was right, that I would physically be on the 270° radial, but heading 090° inbound. I can't make sense of this. I guess I must need more brush up than I thought!

No, your instructor gave you a bum clearance.

Take apart each part of it:

Hold WEST means just that. The 270º radial means just that. VORs have radials upon which you hold. Your inbound course is not a radial but the no-wind heading you will fly to reach the VOR, and, of course, is the reciprocal of the radial in question. So, your airplane will be placed west of the station, flying east toward it. 090º is the reciprocal of 270º.

Hope that helps. Be sure to tune and identify your station and ask "ATC" for an EFC time for lost comm if it is not provided.

 

[labbats]

Excellent advice all around. Drop that bum instructor. A good instructor is always learning and listening. Yours isn't doing either.

 

[flx757]

Drop that bum instructor. A good instructor is always learning and listening. Yours isn't doing either.

Without going into holding instruction...you have gotten plenty of that on this thread, I WILL agree with labbats and his advice.

 

[350DRIVER]

Avbug, once again, you are right

Isn't this man always right? I am waiting to hear his writings in the gospel at church, no joy to date though.

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