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wingnutt
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CSY Mon said:
ah yes... G.P. is military slang for General Purpose.
CSY Mon said:
well, i guess thats the diference between you and me then. i (as well as anyone who has flown freight) have stories, but to call them horror??? unless theres loss of life or limb (a death of sorts)...i think not.
CSY Mon said:
interesting that you would post such a quote when we all know that most things in aviation are blood laws. and yet, you have brought nothing to the table except the crash of "a caravan".
without more info, for all we know you were the refueller in georgia in the mid 80's. that is, to my knowledge, the "first Caravan crash ever" recorded. or are you saying that you actually worked for Mr. Hermens in alaska some months after the georgia incident in which the pilot left the fuel selectors OFF?!?
...the wise speak when they have something to say, the fools speak when they have to say something
LN:
Not beating the accident like a dead horse.
I was asking if any of you Caravan people knew what happened, or if any of you had read the repport.
I have not, I was asking if some of you guys could shed a light on the thing and if you guys had the NTSB link.
I don't.
So here I am asking for info and you Einsteins think I am attacking the beloved Caravan.....Good job.
Wingnut:
Caravan crash in Georigia?
Did not know that.
Yes, I worked for Hermens Air in Alaska, just before the crash, not after.
Did my last flight for Hermens November 1984, and moved to the Virging Islands.
The Caravan crashed a few months later.
Don't have the tailnumber.
As for horror stories without loss of life or limb, whatever you say.
You are right, have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to Caravan flying, never flown one.
Therefore I respectfully bow out and leave this thread to the experts and true proffesionals of Caravan flying...
Not beating the accident like a dead horse.
I was asking if any of you Caravan people knew what happened, or if any of you had read the repport.
I have not, I was asking if some of you guys could shed a light on the thing and if you guys had the NTSB link.
I don't.
So here I am asking for info and you Einsteins think I am attacking the beloved Caravan.....Good job.
Wingnut:
Caravan crash in Georigia?
Did not know that.
Yes, I worked for Hermens Air in Alaska, just before the crash, not after.
Did my last flight for Hermens November 1984, and moved to the Virging Islands.
The Caravan crashed a few months later.
Don't have the tailnumber.
As for horror stories without loss of life or limb, whatever you say.
You are right, have nothing to bring to the table when it comes to Caravan flying, never flown one.
Therefore I respectfully bow out and leave this thread to the experts and true proffesionals of Caravan flying...
wingnutt
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*sigh* im all for learning new things and im sorry you feel so berated, but you sir, were the one proclaiming your vast knowledge. lets see, how did you say it...
this coming after the discussion on the safety of a caravan. thats funny because the particular crash you entice us with actually came down because the pilot took off with BOTH fuel selectors in the OFF position. and that relates to the safety of the caravan...how?!? and no, i dont have the link at the ready, but if youd like i can post it here when i get back.
well at least we got that out of you, but again i dont have the link in front of me. the first recorded crash was indeed in georgia, this one was a result of contaminated fuel that was uploaded from 55 gallon drums kept alongside the hanger.
close, but it actually crashed in Nov 1985, that much i do recall.
this was never said and im sorry you feel so violated. but the greatest caveat to message boards is their anonymity. you never know who youll run into and what experience they have had. and that experience has to be backed up with at least a little bit of accuracy, or no-one will believe you
CSY Mon said:
this coming after the discussion on the safety of a caravan. thats funny because the particular crash you entice us with actually came down because the pilot took off with BOTH fuel selectors in the OFF position. and that relates to the safety of the caravan...how?!? and no, i dont have the link at the ready, but if youd like i can post it here when i get back.
CSY Mon said:
well at least we got that out of you, but again i dont have the link in front of me. the first recorded crash was indeed in georgia, this one was a result of contaminated fuel that was uploaded from 55 gallon drums kept alongside the hanger.
CSY Mon said:
close, but it actually crashed in Nov 1985, that much i do recall.
CSY Mon said:
this was never said and im sorry you feel so violated. but the greatest caveat to message boards is their anonymity. you never know who youll run into and what experience they have had. and that experience has to be backed up with at least a little bit of accuracy, or no-one will believe you
Aye Wingnut:
As I said intiially, I thought the cause of the Alaska crash was pilot error, but did not know the details.
If I was flying the Caravan, I would sure look at previous accidents and perhaps learn something.
I try to do just that for any plane and all planes I fly.
God knows there is enough to learn out there from others mistakes.
That was the true meaning of my message, sorry if it came out wrong.
As for the Georgia crash...
Well, I heard of a Caravan that crashed with a bunch of skydivers onboard, but thought that was in Florida.
Perhaps the same accident..?
November 1985?
Hm, my memory is not that good, got a news paper clip in the mail about the accident, and thought that was shortly after I left Alaska, but uh, my memory is teflon coated..
Still have the clip, but it does not have a date.
Here is the last few sentences:
"Troopers said the Hermans Air flight left Bethel at 0945 a.m. bound for Scammon Bay and Hooper Bay and Chevak.
Spokesman Paul Edscorn said an estimated 50 planes flew over the brown Cessna Caravan as it lay on the tundra."
As for the tail-end of yer post:
He, I don't feel violated at all, thought I put a smiley behind that sentence.
So, yes, on a forum like this one have to be pretty precise when one speaks, and no drunk typing......
The reason I looked at Caravans around here is that I am currently out of work, but see quite a few 208s at the local airport.
Pax and cargo I belive.
Would sure like to fly 'em if an offer came along.
Have enough PT-6 time from Twin Otters that I wouldn't hesitate to fly SE over water.
Now, you said the Alaska accident was caused by taking off with both fuel selectors off???
Hmm there must be pleny fuel in the lines to start up, taxi out and get airborne before the engine quits?
A big sump or some other reservoir between the fuel selectors and the fuel control unit?
No fuel low pressure light?
At any rate, thanks for setting me straight......
As I said intiially, I thought the cause of the Alaska crash was pilot error, but did not know the details.
If I was flying the Caravan, I would sure look at previous accidents and perhaps learn something.
I try to do just that for any plane and all planes I fly.
God knows there is enough to learn out there from others mistakes.
That was the true meaning of my message, sorry if it came out wrong.
As for the Georgia crash...
Well, I heard of a Caravan that crashed with a bunch of skydivers onboard, but thought that was in Florida.
Perhaps the same accident..?
November 1985?
Hm, my memory is not that good, got a news paper clip in the mail about the accident, and thought that was shortly after I left Alaska, but uh, my memory is teflon coated..
Still have the clip, but it does not have a date.
Here is the last few sentences:
"Troopers said the Hermans Air flight left Bethel at 0945 a.m. bound for Scammon Bay and Hooper Bay and Chevak.
Spokesman Paul Edscorn said an estimated 50 planes flew over the brown Cessna Caravan as it lay on the tundra."
As for the tail-end of yer post:
He, I don't feel violated at all, thought I put a smiley behind that sentence.
So, yes, on a forum like this one have to be pretty precise when one speaks, and no drunk typing......
The reason I looked at Caravans around here is that I am currently out of work, but see quite a few 208s at the local airport.
Pax and cargo I belive.
Would sure like to fly 'em if an offer came along.
Have enough PT-6 time from Twin Otters that I wouldn't hesitate to fly SE over water.
Now, you said the Alaska accident was caused by taking off with both fuel selectors off???
Hmm there must be pleny fuel in the lines to start up, taxi out and get airborne before the engine quits?
A big sump or some other reservoir between the fuel selectors and the fuel control unit?
No fuel low pressure light?
At any rate, thanks for setting me straight......
Hose A. Jiminez
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 600
Get a job flying a real airplane. Flying a caravan more than a couple hundred hours will do absolutly nothing for your resume.
Caravans are ugly. They get in your way on STARs and make you wait five minnutes to depart behind them because they are so painfully slow.
You probably have some 152 time so you probably wont get much from the Caravan.
Caravans are ugly. They get in your way on STARs and make you wait five minnutes to depart behind them because they are so painfully slow.
You probably have some 152 time so you probably wont get much from the Caravan.
wingnutt
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no worries here CSY 
it was...see below
and i did just that when i was flying the van. as a matter of fact it was a kind of requirement in order to gain your initial check airman status you had to kind of "dazzle" the POI with some little known info about your airplane...not to mention a certain paper i had to write as a degree requirement just happens to have been on the caravan itself
nah, dont worry about it. although it may seem our friend FN FAL took it a bit personal, i understand where hes coming from with the anti-van driver attitude, even though we used to fly em 160 to the fence and still make the first (if not the second) available taxiway
17 souls on board...yup thats the one, but it was a local smallville in Georgia, perhaps on the border, im unsure
me either
im still going off memory here, but if i recall correctly the "official cause" of the alaska accident was "pilot overconfidence" and he did indeed startup, taxi out, and takeoff...it was just enough fuel for those aspects of flight
...as soon as i get back to my desk, ill post the link to the NTSB reports...cheers!
CSY Mon said:
it was...see below
CSY Mon said:
and i did just that when i was flying the van. as a matter of fact it was a kind of requirement in order to gain your initial check airman status you had to kind of "dazzle" the POI with some little known info about your airplane...not to mention a certain paper i had to write as a degree requirement just happens to have been on the caravan itself
CSY Mon said:
nah, dont worry about it. although it may seem our friend FN FAL took it a bit personal, i understand where hes coming from with the anti-van driver attitude, even though we used to fly em 160 to the fence and still make the first (if not the second) available taxiway
CSY Mon said:
17 souls on board...yup thats the one, but it was a local smallville in Georgia, perhaps on the border, im unsure
CSY Mon said:
me either
CSY Mon said:
im still going off memory here, but if i recall correctly the "official cause" of the alaska accident was "pilot overconfidence" and he did indeed startup, taxi out, and takeoff...it was just enough fuel for those aspects of flight
...as soon as i get back to my desk, ill post the link to the NTSB reports...cheers!
Hose A. Jiminez
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 20, 2003
- Posts
- 600
Wingnuts:
"and he did indeed startup"
SHE, not he.
E-mail or send PM, will fill in the back ground..Sad story.
Roger on the rest of yer post.
Yup, if ya find the link, I would like to read it.
Not too clever searching Government sites, therefore never took the time looking up stuff like the old Caravan accident.
Aha, so there is some anti-Caravan sentiment going on out there, and that makes some guys defensive and looking for any and all attacks on Caravans and their pilots.??
Had no idea.....Shoot, I have almost 3000 hours in SE planes and never thought that was an issue compared to the ME guys...
If anyting, when I jumpseated the big jets, I got respect from the pilots 'cause I flew SE....They knew their job was actually easier.
Same when I was flying the big birds, I would welcome any jumpseater that was doing the down to earth flying and would pick his brain...Did not think anybody was more or less important/skilled/brave/clever, etc. than the other...
Jees, perhaps I have been naive...is there a rank or caste system out there..?
Have not seen much of it in 26 years of flying....A few guys here and there perhaps think they are better than the other guy, but those guys ain't the ones ya want to share a cockpit with, and many a times they end up falling behind....Too good to pay the dues, or whatever.
My favorite airplane was the C-185, and if I could fly it again for a reasonable salary, I would retire on it...And my buddies hauling the big, push-button planes would still respect me in the morning, then some...
"and he did indeed startup"
SHE, not he.
E-mail or send PM, will fill in the back ground..Sad story.
Roger on the rest of yer post.
Yup, if ya find the link, I would like to read it.
Not too clever searching Government sites, therefore never took the time looking up stuff like the old Caravan accident.
Aha, so there is some anti-Caravan sentiment going on out there, and that makes some guys defensive and looking for any and all attacks on Caravans and their pilots.??
Had no idea.....Shoot, I have almost 3000 hours in SE planes and never thought that was an issue compared to the ME guys...
If anyting, when I jumpseated the big jets, I got respect from the pilots 'cause I flew SE....They knew their job was actually easier.
Same when I was flying the big birds, I would welcome any jumpseater that was doing the down to earth flying and would pick his brain...Did not think anybody was more or less important/skilled/brave/clever, etc. than the other...
Jees, perhaps I have been naive...is there a rank or caste system out there..?
Have not seen much of it in 26 years of flying....A few guys here and there perhaps think they are better than the other guy, but those guys ain't the ones ya want to share a cockpit with, and many a times they end up falling behind....Too good to pay the dues, or whatever.
My favorite airplane was the C-185, and if I could fly it again for a reasonable salary, I would retire on it...And my buddies hauling the big, push-button planes would still respect me in the morning, then some...
wingnutt
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CSY Mon said:
well ya got me there, but i never bothered to check
CSY Mon said:
NTSB Identification: ANC86FA007 . The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 29851.
Scheduled 14 CFR Part 135: Air Taxi & Commuter
Accident occurred Friday, November 01, 1985 in BETHEL, AK
Aircraft: CESSNA 208, registration: N9241F
Injuries: 2 Fatal, 2 Serious.
A TOTAL LOSS OF PWR WAS EXPERIENCED ON TAKEOFF DUE TO THE FUEL SELECTORS BEING IN THE OFF POSITION. THE PLT ATTEMPTED TO RESTART THE ENG DURING WHICH TIME THE ACFT ENTERED A STALL AND COLLIDED WITH THE TERRAIN. ACCORDING TO PASSENGERS THE PLT DID NOT USE A CHECKLIST NOR WHERE THE PASSENGERS BRIEFED BEFORE THE FLT. THE WRECKAGE WAS VISIBLE FROM THE ARPT CONTROL TWR BUT WAS NOT LOCATED UNTIL SEVERAL HOURS AFTER THE ACCIDENT BY AIR SEARCH.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
IN-FLIGHT PLANNING/DECISION..POOR..PILOT IN COMMAND
FUEL TANK SELECTOR POSITION..IMPROPER..PILOT IN COMMAND
AIRSPEED..NOT MAINTAINED..PILOT IN COMMAND
DIVERTED ATTENTION..PILOT IN COMMAND
CHECKLIST..NOT FOLLOWED..PILOT IN COMMAND
Contributing Factors
OVERCONFIDENCE IN PERSONAL ABILITY..PILOT IN COMMAND
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NTSB Identification: ATL85MA286 . The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 29687.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, September 29, 1985 in JENKINSBURG, GA
Aircraft: CESSNA 208, registration: N551CC
Injuries: 17 Fatal.
AS THE PLT & 16 JUMPERS DEPTD ON A SKYDIVING FLT, THE ENG LOST PWR AT APRX 300' AGL. THE ACFT THEN BANKED STEEPLY LEFT, SPIRALED IN A STEEP NOSE DWN ATTITUDE & CRASHED. AN EXAM REVEALED FUEL IN THE TANKS WAS CONTAMINATED WITH WTR & FOREIGN MATERIAL WITH THE APPEARANCE OF BROWN ALGAE. MILKY FLUID (APRX 65% JET FUEL & 34% WTR) WAS FND IN THE ENG FUEL CONTROL, AS WELL AS IRON CONTAMINANTS. DARK STRINGY MATERIAL WAS FND IN THE FUEL FILTERS. THE ACFT HAD BEEN REFUELED FM 55 GAL DRUMS WHICH CONTAINED CONTAMINATED FUEL. THE DRUMS WERE STORED UPRIGHT & RAIN WATER COULD LEAK THRU THE FILLER CAPS. N551CC HAD A HISTORY OF FUEL CONTAMINATION WHICH ON OCCASIONS CAUSED THE FUEL BYPASS INDICATOR TO DISPLAY. RPRTDLY, THE STALL WARNING CIRCUIT BRKR HAD BEEN DISENGAGED ON OTHER OCCASIONS, SO AS NOT TO STARTLE THE JUMPERS; HOWEVER, DUE TO DMG, ITS PREIMPACT PSN COULD NOT BE VERIFIED. ACFT WAS ESTD TO BE 370 LBS OVR ITS MAX WT LMT & 1' FWD OF THE CG LMT. THE9 PAX SEATS HAD BEEN RMVD TO HAUL UP TO 18 JUMPERS. PAX SEAT BELTS WERE NOT USED. LACK OF FAA SURVEILLANCE WAS NOTED.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
MAINTENANCE,SERVICE OF AIRCRAFT/EQUIPMENT..IMPROPER..COMPANY/OPERATOR MANAGEMENT
OPERATION WITH KNOWN DEFICIENCIES IN EQUIPMENT..PERFORMED..COMPANY/OPERATOR MANAGEMENT
AIRSPEED..NOT MAINTAINED..PILOT IN COMMAND
STALL..INADVERTENT..PILOT IN COMMAND
FLUID,FUEL..CONTAMINATION
SPIRAL..INADVERTENT..PILOT IN COMMAND
FLUID,FUEL..WATER
Contributing Factors
ELECTRICAL SYSTEM,CIRCUIT BREAKER..NOT ENGAGED
FUEL SYSTEM..CONTAMINATION
WARNING SYSTEM(OTHER)..DISABLED
IMPROPER USE OF PROCEDURE..PILOT IN COMMAND
INADEQUATE SURVEILLANCE OF OPERATION..FAA(ORGANIZATION)
FN FAL
Freight Dawgs Rule
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- 8,573
If I had to fly a real plane for a living, I would have to work more than the 12 days a month I work now...the bigger the plane, the bigger the suit case! 140 knots means I doody time out and can't fly scheduled the next day...I think for now I'll stick with the van...It might fly at the speed of body odor, but that has its advantages also.
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