Career Advice?

[bizicmo]

The best time to buy is when everyone else is selling, the best to start an aviation career in when everyone says "Stay away". Check the posts from 2002, and if there was such a thing in 1992, 1982, 1974 you could check those also.

That is not necessarily the best advice. You have to look at the reason why everyone is selling and whether or not that asset, long term, can regain it's value or to a value at or above where you bought into it.

 

[AirCobra]

The best time to buy is when everyone else is selling, the best to start an aviation career in when everyone says "Stay away". Check the posts from 2002, and if there was such a thing in 1992, 1982, 1974 you could check those also.

I love you man but I couldn't disagree more. The airline part of the industry is nothing like it was back then. I remember in the 1980's you needed 4,000 hours to get on with Air Wisconsin. Last time they were hiring they would take guys with 250 hours and pay them half as much as they used to. The future belongs to the regionals meaning many fewer better paying airline jobs. Who the heck wanted to work for Southwest 20 years ago? Now they have thousands of applicants to fly domestic short haul in a 737. Former Holy Grails like FedEx are even suffering through lousy schedules and pay reductions. Most regional guys would still jump at the chance to fly for FedEx, only to find out they better like being an FE making $50,000 a year. The core of the industry has completlely changed so I don't know if young folks will have the opportunity for growth and progression like you or I did. I would say if you want to fly I would say go military and stay there, otherwise find a better career and fly on the side.

 

[pilotyip]

why selling?

That is not necessarily the best advice. You have to look at the reason why everyone is selling and whether or not that asset, long term, can regain it's value or to a value at or above where you bought into it.

They sell because they are not sure of whats going on. They listen to the so called experts then they run with the herd. Experience teaches that the experts are not always the best source of information. So much like buying stocks, the experts on this board giving advice about an aviation career may not always have the final answer.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Follow your heart. Don't listen to anything/anyone else. It's the only way you'll know if you made the right choice. These guys might as well be telling you what lottery numbers to pick.

Virtual/hypothetical reality is just that.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I found this to be a pretty good post somewhat related to your question or future.

Give it a good read:

Well, your original question was regarding pilots who has migrated from the regionals to other flying adventures... I'll bite. Here's my experience; draw from it what you will...

I always wanted to be an airline guy- I grew up around it- my father and grandfather had flown professionally. I grew up hanging on the airport fence. At age 12 I decided it was what I would do with my life. By 18 I had done my Commercial, Multi, Instrument and CFI. In college I had my own contracting company going and was content earning my CFII and MEI for college credit when luckily, my own experience in professional flying started in college when I became affiliated with a large corporation just as they were considering starting their own flight department. I was "in the right place at the right time" and rode the wave up making good money (45,000ish) while I was going to school and got my ATP and two type ratings out of the deal. We had a three man flight department that allowed me a lot of opportunity to still attend classes during my senior year. But I had always wanted to do scheduled airline flying.. some friends of mine were flying at Chautauqua (this was in 2004) and they encouraged me to turn my stuff in. I did and a few months later got an interview and was placed in the hiring pool... a few months after that I was invited for a class date and so I decided to leave both college and the corporate flying job in favor of -121 flying. That's right- I left a great job and a great education chasing the airline flying life.

I enjoyed the flying and the people I worked with at Chautauqua- it was a wonderful experience. But I missed the pay and QOL I had enjoyed flying in the corporate world. I was sitting on the Republic seniority list in mid-2005 thinking it was purgatory. I didn't see the truth, which was that I was actually pretty lucky and that there were thousands of other pilots trying to get where I was. When I saw a CE-650 taxi by us on the ramp I'd get frustrated thinking that I was typed and had a few hundred hours of PIC in that airplane and COULD be making 70-80k flying that airplane only 200-300 flight hours per year, staying in nice hotels, eating out on the company dime, etc... I also missed the opportunity to fly as PIC and not have to occasionally play "mother may I" with some of the worse Captains out there. But flying at Chautauqua was a lot of fun, I flew my legs and had fun on our overnights. Most of the people I flew with were great pilots and avid professionals. I tried to stay positive about my earning and QOL potential... but commuting on UPS all-night, barely making my bills, working 5 day trips for 20 hours credit and other things really began to burn me out. How can you be positive when PBS keeps putting your bids into denial mode? I digress...

By mid 2007 I could have upgraded to the CRJ fleet but stayed as an FO because I was a commuter and wanted the schedule. I was waiting for a PIC slot on the E-170 fleet in my home-town. When that initial vacancy for that base/seat was awarded, guys that has been with Republic for 6-7 years were too junior to get in on it. It made me really think that I'd have to be at Chautauqua another 4-5 years to make the E170 CA position in my home-town... a dismal thought. Then I got a phone call one day while laying over in Texas.

I got an offer from a charter company in my hometown to interview for a Captain position flying the CE-650. I interviewed and was offered a job starting in the 80k range. Although I wanted to stay in the -121 world and around the -121 environment, I couldn't pass up the opportunity to jump-ahead 5-6 years in relative pay. Not to mention that there would be no more commuting, benefits were going to be significantly better, etc. I made the decision to fly out the remainder of my monthly schedule and then resigned from Republic. This was July 2007. At the time I was #6 F/O in STL out of about 75 First Officers.

At the charter company I immediately liked the pay and benefits. I paid off all my bills, put some money away and started feeling better about my life. The benefits also gave me some piece-of-mind. But the schedule was only marginally improved. Although I didn't have to commute and spend 2 nights away from home in a crash-pad or on my own dime to make 6am reports or midnight block-ins; I did have to answer my phone 16 hours a day "on-call" and pop-up trips were frequent. Out to dinner with the girlfriend? too bad- you've got to come in for an undefined trip. Have plans tomorrow? Oh too bad there too. "get out here as quick as you can for a pop-up trip to Guatemala". No preparation, no packing, no ability to modify your schedule. When they called you had to answer and when they said jump-you asked "how high". A totally different dynamic from the determined schedule and work-rules of the -121 world.

It wasn't much later that they pulled a fast-one on me by displacing me to different equipment.. still as a Captain- still making the same money- but to an airplane I had little to no interest in flying. Again, the people I worked with and flew with were all fun, interesting and avid professionals. We still flew 50-60 hours a month on average (not all that different) and were gone away from home 8-10 nights a month (quite a bit better).

Eventually though- without warning- the charter market took a dive and the charter company one day called me into the office for a meeting. Here I was the lead Captain on the airplane, flying 12-15 days per month and 50-60 hours per month. I felt extremely secure. We were the busiest airplane in the fleet and I was the guy in charge of the airplane on the certificate. But in that meeting they informed me that they were going to have me laid-off because they had lost other aircraft in the fleet and had to find a place for their more senior staff. (i understood the seniority argument). I reluctantly now found myself on the street with no recourse. (couldnt have happened at an airline- they would have had to furlough everyone below me FIRST). But without a union or a contract companies are free to do whatever they need to do without constraint. Whatever their reasoning...

I was sitting on top of several years of -121 and -135 experience, solid flight time, several types and some money in the bank. I felt relatively secure and thought my prospects were good... that was October 2008.

Now here we are in February 2010. The only (professional) flying I've done since my lay-off has been a three month gig with an operator in South Florida. It didn't pan out... after making me pay for my own recurrent (should have never done it), paying all of the companies expenses on my own credit card (don't ever do it) and spending months of my own personal time (trust me- be selfish with your time) they ended up p*ssing off the aircraft owner and the owner instead broke their management agreement with the charter company and sold their jet. It put me back on the street and in an even worse financial position- but I was current/qualified for PIC in the -135 world again. (That doesnt mean D*CK!) Not to mention I had no recourse with these people (who also refused to pay me as agreed) because they threatened to bad-mouth me to any future operator (not good) or hinted at having worse done to me. <gulp!>

Now here is what I've got to show for my jump to where the "grass was greener". I'm absolutely bankrupt, I've lost all my investments, my car, my house, my credit is wrecked and the costs of all the associated hardships is incalculable. There is no outlook for positive recovery anytime soon... I've struggled with significant damage to my self-image and self-worth. I always thought it would be fun to be furloughed/laid-off with recall rights- able to just have 100% time-off for a few years. Reality is a much more sobering situation than what I always dreamed it would be like to be "on the street". I know I am not alone however, and that I am not suffering my fate alone. Thousands of our brother/sister pilots are facing the same -or worse- hardships at the same time. Some find other outlets of their time and are able to lead productive and successful times away from the cockpit- but for those of us who truly belong in the cockpit; no amount of success in sales, professional endeavors or "desk jockey" jobs will suffice.

However, if I had stayed at Republic my seniority would now hold a 17 day ON, 80 hour a month schedule as captain on the e170 in my hometown. I'd be relatively secure, probably financially sound and have good free time and a sense of solid self worth and accomplishment.

My suggestion? Look around you. In this environment don't even attempt a move to another airline or -135/corporate. It is very volatile in this industry now (and always), the smart move is to dig-in and be vigilant to protect what you DO have. I am lucky in that I am still single and do not have to carry the additional burdens of a family and children through this uncertain and trying time of unemployment. I imagine that for those in that situation, the decision to leave aviation behind for good is a much clearer one.

I for one am still hopeful- and if I had the chance today- I'd gladly start somewhere, anywhere at the bottom of the -121 world. Just my .02

I'm not sure if you have the appreciation for what you've built in aviation. I just started another of my own businesses, begrudgingly, and am having to completely renew my development of knowledge in another industry, seek its accreditation and its licenses, build my list of contacts and network within that industry, etc. It's a daunting task and one that is easier said than done!

Alright- flame away!

 

[satpak77]

The best time to buy is when everyone else is selling, the best to start an aviation career in when everyone says "Stay away". Check the posts from 2002, and if there was such a thing in 1992, 1982, 1974 you could check those also.

I am not sure I see your logic here. Unless of course it is "don't listen to everyone" (who by your statement such people are wrong in their advice) and instead listen to your own internal compass.

Mine (the hindsight-compass that is...) would have chosen a field that allowed aviation as a hobby versus as a career. I mean, its been fun, been there, done that, my pilot buddies are good guys, but in the next life? Nah.

But thats just me.

 

[pilotyip]

Logic - Aviation, in hte same sentence?

I am not sure I see your logic here.
But thats just me.

The logic is that in 2002, all the posts match what we see today, "Their will never be any hiring again", "Spending money on pilot training is a bad idea", and "Anyone who enters this career needs their head examined". Now comes 2004, the majors start recalling, opening pilot jobs at places like USA Jet, Kalitta, etc, who have vacancies due to pilots going back to DAL, NWA, etc. Pilots who remained current, got additional ratings and flight time now get jobs at places like ours. Now comes 2006 and 2007, those pilots hired by us in 2004 are getting jobs a DAL, NWA, Net Jets, Jet Blue and SWA. If you drop out of flying during the "Career is dead years" you are not ready for the first wave of the next hiring boom. In this business being first to get the seniority counts for a lot. BTW I predicted the 2007-hiring boom back in Sept of 2003, every one thought I was out of my mind. Now that may be true I am a pilot, but it does not effect a repeat of historic trends.

 

[satpak77]

The logic is that in 2002, all the posts match what we see today, "Their will never be any hiring again", "Spending money on pilot training is a bad idea", and "Anyone who enters this career needs their head examined". Now comes 2004, the majors start recalling, opening pilot jobs at places like USA Jet, Kalitta, etc, who have vacancies due to pilots going back to DAL, NWA, etc. Pilots who remained current, got additional ratings and flight time now get jobs at places like ours. Now comes 2006 and 2007, those pilots hired by us in 2004 are getting jobs a DAL, NWA, Net Jets, Jet Blue and SWA. If you drop out of flying during the "Career is dead years" you are not ready for the first wave of the next hiring boom. In this business being first to get the seniority counts for a lot. BTW I predicted the 2007-hiring boom back in Sept of 2003, every one thought I was out of my mind. Now that may be true I am a pilot, but it does not effect a repeat of historic trends.

Maybe a more logical take-from this that an aviation job is unstable and has severe good times and severe bad times.

 

[ualdriver]

The logic is that in 2002, all the posts match what we see today, "Their will never be any hiring again", "Spending money on pilot training is a bad idea", and "Anyone who enters this career needs their head examined". Now comes 2004, the majors start recalling, opening pilot jobs at places like USA Jet, Kalitta, etc, who have vacancies due to pilots going back to DAL, NWA, etc. Pilots who remained current, got additional ratings and flight time now get jobs at places like ours. Now comes 2006 and 2007, those pilots hired by us in 2004 are getting jobs a DAL, NWA, Net Jets, Jet Blue and SWA. If you drop out of flying during the "Career is dead years" you are not ready for the first wave of the next hiring boom. In this business being first to get the seniority counts for a lot. BTW I predicted the 2007-hiring boom back in Sept of 2003, every one thought I was out of my mind. Now that may be true I am a pilot, but it does not effect a repeat of historic trends.

Yip-

I don't think anyone can honestly say that there will never be any hiring again. But like the poster above me wrote, there are severe swings in this highly cyclical industry, and the OP should understand that.

Look at the OP. He's 33, probably has a solid decade in the IT world, and must be at least a decent IT guy or he likely wouldn't hold a job that pays 6 figures. Likely in his profession, he could normally leave his job and go somewhere else and expect to make something resembling what he makes now. The "normal-ness" of being able to do that in just about every other profession EXCEPT the pilot profession for us would be considered a "hiring boom." For him, that's just "normal."

So to imply to this guy that there is going to be some sort of hiring boom in a few years, without also explaining what a "hiring boom" is in aviation vs a "hiring boom" in his profession isn't giving the complete picture. Further, even if there was a boom in 2012, 2011, 2013, whatever, it is likely that many who would enjoy such a boom could be back on the streets on the following down cycle just like the last cycle in 2007. The streets of Anyairport, USA, is littered with the bodies of the "Great Boom of 2007." I think that's a pretty important piece of information that you need to include if you're going give people hopes of some sort of upcoming "boom" in this industry.

Further, the PERPETUAL OVERSUPPLY of pilots that exists in this industry, whether we're booming or busting, makes it extremely difficult to earn a living as a professional pilot. Pilots constantly undercut each other and management teams take advantage of the perpetual oversupply, which has a tendency to drive down average wages, especially for lower tier jobs. That's another thing the OP needs to understand, which is completely different than his world.

 

[pilotyip]

ditto

Maybe a more logical take-from this that an aviation job is unstable and has severe good times and severe bad times.

and timing and seniority are everything, be in front when hiring starts makes hte career much better, of course you have to pick the right airline

 

[satpak77]

and timing and seniority are everything, be in front when hiring starts makes hte career much better, of course you have to pick the right airline

yes like Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Eastern

remember, get that seniority started.

 

[pilotyip]

good guessing also

yes like Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Eastern

remember, get that seniority started.

Combined with foresight that the airline you pick will not go out of business or donwsize. Remember the guys who jumped from SWA, FedEx, etc to get the great jobs at UAL, AAL, and DAL back in 2000 and 2001.

 

[retired guy]

Go take a really cold shower.....

 

[acaTerry]

Keep your IT job. Buy a plane of your own and fly for YOU. That will keep flying enjoyable.

 

[SWA GUY]

Who the heck wanted to work for Southwest 20 years ago? Now they have thousands of applicants to fly domestic short haul in a 737.

Well....I guess I would have loved to fly for the Luvline 20 years ago. I've only been at SWA for 10 years.