Caravan Ice?

[Grumman guy]

I know there are alot of Van drivers on this board so I thought I would ask some advice on what to do/avoid/look for in regards to icing in the van.

Winter will be here soon and it will be my first in the Van so I would really appreciate some "Real World" advice.

Thanks in advance

 

[Flying Illini]

I'm sure there are plenty of folks who browse this section with experience in the van, but I know you will get some great info from the guys in the cargo section.
have fun and be safe this winter.

 

[CaravanMan]

The vans I flew were freight planes and looked every bit of it. Their boots were not kept in great shape so they didn't shed ice too well. I usually ended up blowing the boots in the descent to shed any residual ice. One time that really stuck in my mind was getting into some light freezing drizzle/rain...and then having the prop anti-ice fail. Trying to get out of that was fun.

Check out www.caravanpilots.com - it's a great site and there're some smart people on there.

Have fun in the Caravan! It's an awesome plane; I miss it! It does fine in ice as long as your brain isn't INOP.

 

[GravityHater]

Didn't the FAA in concert with Cessna come up with (new, special) icing encounter recommendations for Caravans recently?

 

[FN FAL]

I spent about 35 minutes in icing on Wed just to get current again. 6,000 feet was IMC and -2C. 4000 would have put me under it at plus freezing temps, so I thought I'd take the opportunity to turn on the igniters and pull out the inertial separator for a while.

I got down to 135 indicated with some mixed/clear icing and used the opportunity to remind myself to not get too comfortable with being in it.

If think of anything between now and tomorrow, I'll post it...don't have time right now.

 

[mar]

My advice: Avoid it like the plague

Here's my experience.

I flew C207s around VFR in icing conditions. Basically my plan was to either climb up through it or descend down through it but there was no way in hell I would loiter in icing conditions in a C207.

Then I got checked out in a C208. Same plan. I don't care if it had boots, a hot prop/windscreen.

It's only good enough to climb through or descend through. You cannot loiter in icing conditions in the Caravan.

If you find yourself stuck in icing conditions be especially aware for ice forming aft of the boot. This is an emergency. You need to get out of that crap right now.

War story: One day I pushed it too far. I stalled in the flare. I count myself as one of the lucky ones.

Fly smart.

 

[CaravanMan]

I'll add a bit to what Mar posted... I agree with ice forming aft of the boot; that requires immediate attention. What you also want to keep in mind is that the wing is a very fat airfoil and won't accumulate ice as quickly as the thinner horizontal stab.; it can be deceiving. Keep an eye on the wing strut and OAT probe for accumulation. I think the strut is pretty close in width to the horizontal stab, so that should give you an idea of what's forming behind you; ice on the back end can be really dangerous (tail stall). If you haven't seen NASA's icing video you ought to hunt down a copy because it's a great video and covers a lot on tail stalls and recovery. I had enough ice on the plane once while I was landing that it was incredibly mushy, but thankfully never stalled it. I flew the ILS with no flaps and a lot of airspeed, but in the flare it felt like there was nothing there. The normally very responsive controls felt like mush. And, like Mar also said, get out of ice as soon as you can. That is your best protection.

 

[mar]

Excellent point

What you also want to keep in mind is that the wing is a very fat airfoil and won't accumulate ice as quickly as the thinner horizontal stab.; it can be deceiving.

I should've mentioned this. It's a very important point.

 

[FN FAL]

I had enough ice on the plane once while I was landing that it was incredibly mushy, but thankfully never stalled it. I flew the ILS with no flaps and a lot of airspeed, but in the flare it felt like there was nothing there. The normally very responsive controls felt like mush. And, like Mar also said, get out of ice as soon as you can. That is your best protection.

Yea, the no flaps in icing is good policy...in addition, you might want to consider not making abrupt power changes until you got your wheels on the ground. When I have significant ice on the airframe, I usually fly it on, no flare. The stall will come on way before the bottom of the green arc, so if you are 10 feet up when you attempt a flare, you might be surprised.

Here's a test question: What's the speed limit on Caravan tires?

Also, when you're planning your approach, you might want to consider whether or not you'll have to do a circling approach. Our company prohibits circling approaches if you have airframe icing, but I would imagine a trace is not going to be a limiting factor if vis is up and the ceiling alows for a wider circling manuver.

 

[minitour]

Here's a test question: What's the speed limit on Caravan tires?

ooh ooh...I read this once...it's in the high 160s isn't it? 168?

Am I even close?

-mini

 

[FN FAL]

ooh ooh...I read this once...it's in the high 160s isn't it? 168?

Am I even close?

-mini

I bet avbug knows imp:

One thing is for sure, you won't exceed that tire speed with any significant airframe icing, even with power on in the downhill slide of an approach, unless you've stalled.

 

[T-REX]

Ditto what was said above. Avoid icing at all costs, but if that is not possible set your limits and stick to them. I used to use "if i lose 10 kts of airspeed I would start selecting airports I could land at; if i lose 20 kts I'm going there."

Be sure to check PIREPs for tops/icing and familiarize yourself with SKEW-T charts. It graphs temp. and dew point with altitude and will give you a good idea of where the tops will be.

Have fun!! Caravans are a blast to fly.

 

[Hand Commander]

If you're new to the van, I'd recommend attending a caravan safety seminar. Cessna puts them on for free every year around the country. You can find info at www.caravanpilots.com. Steve McNew is the guy who puts them on and does a good job of explaining icing scenarios in the van. I think he was involved in all the initial flight testing in icing conditions up in Alaska. Anyway its a lot of good information, some of which you've heard before, but never hurts to hear again. They also give out caravan cd's and the NASA tail stall DVD. They provide free food and drinks as well. Really no excuse not to go if there is one near you.

 

[minitour]

I bet avbug knows imp:

One thing is for sure, you won't exceed that tire speed with any significant airframe icing, even with power on in the downhill slide of an approach, unless you've stalled.

hmm...I think I'm high by 20 kts...I'll go with 148...final ansa!

-mini

 

[EatSleepFly]

If you're new to the van, I'd recommend attending a caravan safety seminar. Cessna puts them on for free every year around the country. You can find info at www.caravanpilots.com. Steve McNew is the guy who puts them on and does a good job of explaining icing scenarios in the van. I think he was involved in all the initial flight testing in icing conditions up in Alaska. Anyway its a lot of good information, some of which you've heard before, but never hurts to hear again. They also give out caravan cd's and the NASA tail stall DVD. They provide free food and drinks as well. Really no excuse not to go if there is one near you.

I hear they are good. I'm going to one Monday night. Free food! :nuts:

Didn't really want to since I've only got a few more weeks left in the 'Van, but I didn't really want to give my notice yet either, so I'm going anyways.

 

[flyboyzii]

I've been flying the van for 5 long years now and will tell you what I do. Climb at 115 knots. What you get for climb rate is what you get. Don't mingle around in the ice and on the approach it is a no flap landing. I have never had much problem with it. As far as the FAA and Cessna getting together for "mods". They just cut the icing weight back to 8000 lbs on the "b" model and 7600 lbs gross on the "a" model. Good luck and that vibration you feel is just the prop NOT shedding anything!!!!

 

[GravityHater]

familiarize yourself with SKEW-T charts. It graphs temp. and dew point with altitude and will give you a good idea of where the tops will be.

EXAMPLE!! please.

 

[cforst513]

i have never flown in icing conditions, so i have a question: how quickly does the ice melt/fall off after you leave the visible moisture you're in by either climbing or descending? if you descend into warmer air, does it take a while or does it really just depend on the thickness and type of ice?

 

[Dickensheets]

I used to wax the boots during winter to make them real slippery. I forget the name of the stuff but I think it's in Sporty's catalog. I recall that it helped quite a bit.

Ryan

 

[flyboyzii]

As far as how long it takes to melt??? It depends on how much you have on and the outside ambient temperature.

My company is gracious enough to put 1 can of "ice X" in each of our aircraft just in case we feel the need to appy for extra protection. The mechanics apply this stuff once a month anyway but it seems to lose it's effectiveness after about two or three de-icings. The onlt thing with "ice X" is that it needs 24 hours to cure on the boots. But it IS expensive (about $180) last time I bought a can. It is the best stuff around though. Think of it as life insurance. We fly in the ice every day for about 4 months at a time. Just my .02

 

[Dickensheets]

Thinking back, some of the guys were using Rain - X and Armor all too. Lord only knows if this stuff is compatable with boot material. We were desperate young men. Check with your mech before applying anything to the aircraft.

Ryan

 

[T-REX]

EXAMPLE!! please.

no prob.

help page:
http://weather.unisys.com/upper_air/skew/details.html

See in the image the point where temp. and dew point lines diverge? That's the tops. This particular sounding was probably taken on a day with low clouds/overcast. It isn't the original purpose of the Skew-T but it works well for flight planning.

Here is a great site that shows the data and automatically computes altitudes w/ freezing levels from pressures.
http://www-frd.fsl.noaa.gov/mab/soundings/java/

Fly safe!

 

[FN FAL]

Also, you might want to figure out alternatives, like MOCA.

 

[minitour]

i have never flown in icing conditions, so i have a question: how quickly does the ice melt/fall off after you leave the visible moisture you're in by either climbing or descending? if you descend into warmer air, does it take a while or does it really just depend on the thickness and type of ice?

My experience was pretty tame once we got out of the freezing level.

I'd say once we dropped 500' it was melting off. Once I was on final 1400' lower than I was holding it was completely gone from the wing struts. I'm hoping (not that it matters now) that it was off of the horizontal/vertical stab in the back too...I'd assume it was.

It's going to depend though....that's the thing about ice. It's unpredictable.

-mini

 

[wingnutt]

all good advice, perhaps a condensed version...

first, get yourself into one of the cold weather seminars...GREAT info to be had there, and a chance to win a recurrent at FSI. this is also where they will teach you that the van is NOT meant to loiter in icing conditions. i forget the formula now, but in that class, he will teach you that the van (based on its blistering speed) was CERTIFIED to fly in sustained icing conditions for something like TWO minutes...no more.

next...prep the boots. ask the mechs what to use, but Ice-X is what we used, and every other day if you KNOW youre gonna be in it.

then...watching the wing strut will tell you whats going on in the back. tail stalls require the complete opposite reaction in order to survive, you have to pull BACK on the yoke.

finally...be mindful of icing speeds. trying to recall, but i believe 120 knots was when you start trading altitude for airspeed (i think its actually like 108, but we added 10 knots to it for safety). anything less than that, and you WILL become a smoking hole in the ground.

and of course...flight plan. more than once we cancelled a trip because the freezing level was from the ground to the mid teens, and we all know the van is certified higher, but you aint gonna make it if you have to climb thru ice to get there.

dont let all this scare ya off...the van is a great aircraft and you will remember these times fondly for the rest of your career

 

[TurboS7]

If I am picking up ice I just accelerate to 320KTS, works great. I don't hang around in ice and I have it all.(738)I also have 10000 hours banging around Alaska and the Midwest in piston airplanes from 182's to BE-18's. When you are in ice you have to get out of it. Playing with it even with warm air below is nothing to mess with. If you are in ice go fast, and keep going fast. If you have ice shoot the approach fast, land fast. Don't let ice build on the bottom of the wing, the weight of the ice alone will pull you right out of the sky. It is nothing to mess with in a piston or light turboprop airplane. When you transiton to jets things change, ice in the air is no big deal, the runway and stopping distance becomes the major concern and limiting factor.

 

[Hand Commander]

As far as prepping deice boots, I've used this stuff, www.jetstreamproducts.com/deice.htm. Its a two step process, but if you do it right, it works amazingly well (one of the few products I've ever used that backs up its claims). The boots come out super shiney and are ready to shed ice as good as a pneumatic rubber boot can, not that its any reason to stay in icing conditions any longer than necessary, especially in a caravan.

 

[FN FAL]

Playing with it even with warm air below is nothing to mess with.

Yea, it's always best to get your first dose of ice for the season on a dark nicht, when the hanger is rattling from the wind off of Lake Superior and there is a half mile visibilty from snow falling out of the 100 foot vv.