Captured British Sailors

[PimpJuice]

This is way off topic but I was curious to see what others, especially veterans, thought of the behavior of the British sailors that were captured and released by Iran. Having had the benefit of attending the Navy's SERE (survival, evasion, resistance, escape) school, I have some strong opinions about their actions or lack of but would appreciate the diverse opinions of this group.

 

[Say Again Over]

comment

I can't believe it took so long for someone to start a thread on the subject, first of all although I am a veteran, I'm not a flight crew or any other specialty that goes to things like SERE, I do however feel that if I was captured that I wouldn't let them parade me around and dress me up, and shake hands with the head "idiot". Seems ridiculous that they would cooperate to the extent they did. Once again, I have never worked near the front lines or have I ever been a POW, will be interesting to see how others feel.

 

[bssthound]

Read the post in this section titled "Does England not have Survival School?"

 

[SIG600]

Read the post in this section titled "Does England not have Survival School?"

+1

That said, PJ you should know (I've been through Brunswick as well) that anyone being forced into that situation without the training, does not have the tools to use, or know what to expect. They did what they thought they had to do to get home.

I have a bigger question than why they said what they said.... Who the hell was the skipper of their ship that let them be taken? I'm sorry, he should have blown the Iranians out of the water. The location of the sunken wreckage would further end the argument of where they were picked up.

 

[Freight Dog]

You can't just blow the Iranians out of the water. That would be such a morally and politically incorrect thing to do! <heavy sarcasm>

 

[airspeedsalive]

Admiral Nelson and Churchill must be spinning in their graves - The Royal Navy just shrugs their shoulders, and give up without a fight. What a shame.

 

[Draginass]

I'm not sure shooting it out between the kidnapped rubber boat crew and the Iranians would have been practical. Since there was no formal hostilities between the Brits and Iranians, the Brits allowed them to approach for a parle. Then the Iranians went into high aggression by surprise.

What is astonishing is the subsequent fecklessness of the UK and Royal Navy. The Iranians and Arabs only understand and respect one thing, raw power. These are not honorable people you're dealing with. They will do anything and everything to hurt you regardless of any mores of civilization. They will take advantage of your humanity and turn it against you. Only when you understand that, will you begin to come to grips on how to fight the fight. You don't try to reform them, you just kick the place over and destroy anything that can be used in the future for agression, then you WALK AWAY. Oh, and you ban any newcomers from that country from entering your country. That means ANYONE. In 10 years you might have to do it again, but the cost is a lot cheaper than what we're doing now.

Within two hours of the kidnapping of the crews, it should have been explained to the Iranian Theocracy that the Brits WILL be released in 6 hours unharmed and uninterrogated, or the Iranian Navy will cease to exist in 7 hours. And that's just for starters.

In the future, ALL approaching Iranian vessels should be considered hostile and fired upon.

 

[airspeedsalive]

I'm not sure shooting it out between the kidnapped rubber boat crew and the Iranians would have been practical. Since there was no formal hostilities between the Brits and Iranians, the Brits allowed them to approach for a parle. Then the Iranians went into high aggression by surprise.

What is astonishing is the subsequent fecklessness of the UK and Royal Navy. The Iranians and Arabs only understand and respect one thing, raw power. These are not honorable people you're dealing with. They will do anything and everything to hurt you regardless of any mores of civilization. They will take advantage of your humanity and turn it against you. Only when you understand that, will you begin to come to grips on how to fight the fight. You don't try to reform them, you just kick the place over and destroy anything that can be used in the future for agression, then you WALK AWAY. Oh, and you ban any newcomers from that country from entering your country. That means ANYONE. In 10 years you might have to do it again, but the cost is a lot cheaper than what we're doing now.

Within two hours of the kidnapping of the crews, it should have been explained to the Iranian Theocracy that the Brits WILL be released in 6 hours unharmed and uninterrogated, or the Iranian Navy will cease to exist in 7 hours. And that's just for starters.

In the future, ALL approaching Iranian vessels should be considered hostile and fired upon.

All very true, but what ever happened to: "England expects every man to do his duty"?

I just think it's a shame. Look at what's happening in Britain with them bending over to immigrants with their political correctness. They are losing their national identity. We in the US need to take notice. If we don't take a stand in this country we are headed down the same path.

 

[BushwickBill]

What would Horatio Hornbolower do?

 

[Oh-ryan]

I can almost forgive those guys for what they did if they never received any formal SERE-like training. What adds insult to injury is that there is a large percentage of the civilian population coddling these guys. They should all be insulted and embarrassed.

What really shocks me is that I have yet to see one American media outlet draw a comparision to what happened to the EP-3 crew about 6 years ago with China. The best our esteemed media could do was dig up Vietnam era footage of McCain and Stockdale. It amazes me how short our memory spans are. The EP-3/China incident was much more relevant to what happened here with the Iranians/Brits. Our crew did everything they were supposed to do when they were in captivity and they came home with honor.

 

[PimpJuice]

I can almost forgive those guys for what they did if they never received any formal SERE-like training. What adds insult to injury is that there is a large percentage of the civilian population coddling these guys. They should all be insulted and embarrassed.

What really shocks me is that I have yet to see one American media outlet draw a comparision to what happened to the EP-3 crew about 6 years ago with China. The best our esteemed media could do was dig up Vietnam era footage of McCain and Stockdale. It amazes me how short our memory spans are. The EP-3/China incident was much more relevant to what happened here with the Iranians/Brits. Our crew did everything they were supposed to do when they were in captivity and they came home with honor.

I agree with you on their actions once they landed but not their choice to land in the first place. This has been openly debated within Naval Aviation and I know it's controversial. Nonetheless, the decision to land that in China instead of ditch in the sea (knowing full well that there may be fatalities) is one I don't agree with. That airplane is just too damn sensitive to give to the Chinese. It was some ballsy flying to get it on deck but the wrong decision. Shane Osborne's book, Born to Fly also made me a bit nauseous.

 

[Benhuntn]

What was their first question when they got home? "Can we sell our book rights and movie rights?" Yeah they were some tough dudes and dudette.

 

[BushwickBill]

Hornblower would have charmed his way out of jail, single handedly destroyed the Irainian nuclear program, used a 72 gun frigate to sink the Iranian navy, sailed to Iraq ended the insurgency and pimped the hottest Arab royal babe in the region.

Kids are so damn worthless these days.

"Just thinking of the distances we travel, yet how far we still have to sail as men" - Horatio Hornblower

 

[LeonPhelps]

This is way off topic but I was curious to see what others, especially veterans, thought of the behavior of the British sailors that were captured and released by Iran. Having had the benefit of attending the Navy's SERE (survival, evasion, resistance, escape) school, I have some strong opinions about their actions or lack of but would appreciate the diverse opinions of this group.

Anybody recall what happened with the downed Brit pilots in the first Gulf war? One of them wouldn't say a word, until they electrocuted him so hard that his teeth started popping out, and went back to his cell and cried his eyes out for "selling out". Another one beat the crap out of himself so that his "propaganda" videos would be discredited. Tell you what...those Brits have a fine tradition of hangin' tough right up to the breaking point(which we all have)...I'm not sure exactly what happened in Iran, but it seemed that the pilots from the first Gulf War might be a little bummed at their countrymen's performance on this recent one. But, again...I wasn't there, so I don't know. Just some thoughts. On the surface, it didn't seem like these British sailors did much to keep themselves from being manipulated and utilized...but, again...I wasn't there.

Now, back to my half empty bottle of courvossier...

 

[Deuce130]

Anybody recall what happened with the downed Brit pilots in the first Gulf war? One of them wouldn't say a word, until they electrocuted him so hard that his teeth started popping out, and went back to his cell and cried his eyes out for "selling out". Another one beat the crap out of himself so that his "propaganda" videos would be discredited. Tell you what...those Brits have a fine tradition of hangin' tough right up to the breaking point(which we all have)...I'm not sure exactly what happened in Iran, but it seemed that the pilots from the first Gulf War might be a little bummed at their countrymen's performance on this recent one. But, again...I wasn't there, so I don't know. Just some thoughts. On the surface, it didn't seem like these British sailors did much to keep themselves from being manipulated and utilized...but, again...I wasn't there.

Now, back to my half empty bottle of courvossier...

I think it's because 98% of the British population has gone soft. They're ancestors are probably rolling in their graves. The Brits are more concerned with not offending anyone, taxing everything that moves, promoting diversity, and allowing Muslims to infect their society to be concerned about anything else. If anything, the idea of a strong military or loyalty to their country probably scares the crap out of most Brits. Too "nationalistic" or some such crap. Take it easy on the ladies, Leon...

 

[Oh-ryan]

I agree with you on their actions once they landed but not their choice to land in the first place. This has been openly debated within Naval Aviation and I know it's controversial. Nonetheless, the decision to land that in China instead of ditch in the sea (knowing full well that there may be fatalities) is one I don't agree with. That airplane is just too dang sensitive to give to the Chinese. It was some ballsy flying to get it on deck but the wrong decision. Shane Osborne's book, Born to Fly also made me a bit nauseous.

I agree with you. That is why in my original post I carefully stated that they did everything right when in captivity. The debate continues about whether or not they should have allowed themselves to become captives in the first place. Many navy squadrons involved in those missions today are specifically directed to "put her in the drink" if ever placed in a similar situation.

Also agree about Shane's book though I don't blame him one bit for doing it. Some publishing company threw a bunch of money at him and probably had someone else write the majority of it for him. I would do the same thing, but the "gayest" thing about the book was that hokey photo on the cover with him wearing a command ball cap and the pig taking off in the background.

 

[Oh-ryan]

Anybody recall what happened with the downed Brit pilots in the first Gulf war? One of them wouldn't say a word, until they electrocuted him so hard that his teeth started popping out, and went back to his cell and cried his eyes out for "selling out". Another one beat the crap out of himself so that his "propaganda" videos would be discredited. Tell you what...those Brits have a fine tradition of hangin' tough right up to the breaking point(which we all have)...I'm not sure exactly what happened in Iran, but it seemed that the pilots from the first Gulf War might be a little bummed at their countrymen's performance on this recent one. But, again...I wasn't there, so I don't know. Just some thoughts. On the surface, it didn't seem like these British sailors did much to keep themselves from being manipulated and utilized...but, again...I wasn't there.

Now, back to my half empty bottle of courvossier...

I prefer to see it has half full.

 

[Say Again Over]

What was their first question when they got home? "Can we sell our book rights and movie rights?" Yeah they were some tough dudes and dudette.

Exactly, who in their right mind would want to buy it? uke: