Captains please teach etiquette

[Gr82Aviate]

Other than common courtesy (picking up after yourself, etc), are these new FO's supposed to magically know these nit-picky things at birth? They don't teach this stuff in ground school, so they aren't going to know or do any of it until they are either taught or are on the line long enough to figure it out. If there's a new rash of young punk FO's who don't have any courtesy, it's only because there hasn't been any captains who've cared enough to get them in line. I'm not saying this as any defense to some idiot FOs' out there, but think about it next time you are walking away from the airplane, shaking your head and just itching to post something about it on flightinfo. How about taking a couple extra seconds to give some guidance...?

For what it's worth, I try to teach every FO I fly with by example...sadly very few care to pull themselves away from their cell phones and IPODS to take the minute or two that would be required to accomplish this. I appreciate the very few that seem to give a sh!t. It used to be a rare day we would takeover an A/C that wasn't set up, cleaned up and ready to go...now, not so much!

 

[bailey3083]

For what it's worth, I try to teach every FO I fly with by example...sadly very few care to pull themselves away from their cell phones and IPODS to take the minute or two that would be required to accomplish this. I appreciate the very few that seem to give a sh!t. It used to be a rare day we would takeover an A/C that wasn't set up, cleaned up and ready to go...now, not so much!

I use to do that with every FO but if they did not want to setup I would do it as there is nothing mroe uplifting then getting into a new A/C during a long day and seeing some one took just alittle time to make your job just that little easier.
I think the reason the FO's are how they are today is because Mom and Dad are not teaching the basic etiquette as are parents did.

Bailey

 

[BigPappa]

I am not too picky, just take your trash out and leave it clean!

 

[Kream926]

maybe im just the best fo ever or i had a really good ioe capt but i set up for the next crew...theres not much to do in the saab

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Why are IOE captains putting up with letting new hire FO's talk on their cellphones and listen to their IPODs?

That's the biggest thing I've gotten from this thread so far.

 

[DX Rick]

Why are IOE captains putting up with letting new hire FO's talk on their cellphones and listen to their IPODs?

That's the biggest thing I've gotten from this thread so far.

IOE captains should be the ones teaching this behavior, not regular line captains.

IOE Captain will make the new hire feel as if he HAS to do it. Where a line captain will come across as a "d*ck" to the new hire who knows it all.

It also just creates a bad setting between the two pilots while they're on a trip together. The captain will feel as if he's baby sitting, while teaching proper etiquette.

Take it to the training department. IOE isn't teaching how to fly the airplane...all that much. It's more of how it's done "On the line" ....so let the IOE guys teach them proper etiquette. Everything from how to dress while nonreving, how to act, allowing all paying pax off the airplane before you, how to talk within ear shot of passengers, how to set up the cockpit for the next guy....basically, how to be a professional pilot.

 

[FmrFreightDog]

IOE captains should be the ones teaching this behavior, not regular line captains.

IOE Captain will make the new hire feel as if he HAS to do it. Where a line captain will come across as a "d*ck" to the new hire who knows it all.

It also just creates a bad setting between the two pilots while they're on a trip together. The captain will feel as if he's baby sitting, while teaching proper etiquette.

Take it to the training department. IOE isn't teaching how to fly the airplane...all that much. It's more of how it's done "On the line" ....so let the IOE guys teach them proper etiquette. Everything from how to dress while nonreving, how to act, allowing all paying pax off the airplane before you, how to talk within ear shot of passengers, how to set up the cockpit for the next guy....basically, how to be a professional pilot.

That is an excellent post. Unfortunately, IOE has become more about pushing guys through ASAP and moving on to the next one. This is not a reflection on the line check guys who do IOE, rather it is an unfortunate fact that comes with hiring 40 250 hour pilots a month. It's all an IOE guy can do to get them close to the point that they are not an abject menace out on the line. In a perfect world, IOE would include lessons on "how it's done on line", an international destination or two, pointers on how to work the operational side of the airline, etc. etc. etc. Unfortunately, there's just no time. More and more, it falls on the line captains to teach etiquette and "the right way to do things". Unfortuately, too many line captains are more than willing to let this stuff slide in order to avoid seeming like a "dick".

Of course, there's the whole "Generation Me" argument also, but that's a different rant for a different night.

Bottom line.. Captains.. step up. Guide your FOs.... nicely. Teach them how it's done on line. Don't be afraid to teach technique. Above all, if one of your new FOs thinks it's acceptable to leave the cockpit a mess, then by all means, make them clean up after themselves. It's in the FOM (ASA's anyway) as an FO duty. If your kind guidance doesn't yield acceptable results, there's always the Professional Standards committee.

 

[DX Rick]

That is an excellent post.

Thanks, I try for one good one a year. That was it, so I better print it out and frame it.

Of course, there's the whole "Generation Me" argument also, but that's a different rant for a different night.

Bottom line.. Captains.. step up. Guide your FOs.... nicely. Teach them how it's done on line. Don't be afraid to teach technique. Above all, if one of your new FOs thinks it's acceptable to leave the cockpit a mess, then by all means, make them clean up after themselves. It's in the FOM (ASA's anyway) as an FO duty. If your kind guidance doesn't yield acceptable results, there's always the Professional Standards committee.

I was going to say. If that FO isn't able to accept constructive criticism, you can always talk to Pro Stands.

Some guys, new or old, have to be able to drop the ego. It's not a game of "I'm better than you". It's bad enough we have to share each others germs, and get each other sick. I don't care if you didn't set the cockpit up for me. But haul your garbage and garbage bags away.
I don't mind you leaving a magazine in there, but my luck has sucked lately. All this year, it's "People" and "Us" magazines. I'm sick of reading about Hillary, Paris, Rosie and Lindsey. Leave me some "Guns and Ammo" or "Drunk Chicks"

 

[SBD-2U3]

New ASA F/O's:

1) Put your seat back all the way up.

2) Move your seat all the way back (easier for the next guy to heave that 35
pound flight case into its home).

3) Remove your water bottles from the "flight case holder". (Refer to reason
above).

4) Throw all of your trash away.

5) If you are low on fuel slips/load manifests and you have time then please
refill them.

6) If you are on the last page of the flight log then make a note in the
remarks section. If you have time then please get another; if you do not
know then ask where they are. Someone will be glad to help.

7) Wipe your cookie/cracker crumbs off of the seat.

8) Dial in ATIS/CD on your RTU. Place a load manifest on the chart holder.
Hang the hand mic on that pen in that fancy leather pen holder.


I know your busy with calling in the times and finding the ship and gate of
your next flight, but with more experience you will learn to incorporate this
into your routine and the next guy will be just as thankful as you were.

Seriously,
I can dial my own freqs and I don't need the cockpit "SET UP". The whole seat thing...ABSOLUTLY. It really is a pain in the a$$ to get that darn bag around the seat and in the bin. The radio and load manifest is a little bit OCD. :laugh:

 

[FmrFreightDog]

I don't mind you leaving a magazine in there, but my luck has sucked lately. All this year, it's "People" and "Us" magazines. I'm sick of reading about Hillary, Paris, Rosie and Lindsey. Leave me some "Guns and Ammo" or "Drunk Chicks"

It's a disturbing trend, no doubt. I do remember the days, not so long ago, when the FAs would bring that stuff to the cockpit and the pilots would actually say, "No thanks."

 

[Midnight Flyer]

IOE captains should be the ones teaching this behavior, not regular line captains.

IOE Captain will make the new hire feel as if he HAS to do it. Where a line captain will come across as a "d*ck" to the new hire who knows it all.

It also just creates a bad setting between the two pilots while they're on a trip together. The captain will feel as if he's baby sitting, while teaching proper etiquette.

Take it to the training department. IOE isn't teaching how to fly the airplane...all that much. It's more of how it's done "On the line" ....so let the IOE guys teach them proper etiquette. Everything from how to dress while nonreving, how to act, allowing all paying pax off the airplane before you, how to talk within ear shot of passengers, how to set up the cockpit for the next guy....basically, how to be a professional pilot.

I agree, unfortunately, IOE capts are stuck teaching this etiquette to young fo's and even how to clean up after oneself.

But really, having to teach a grown adult that sort of thing is utterly ridiculous. Parents should instill these basic behaviors, and also values and responsibility in their kids.

What have things come to? Just analyze how ridiculous this is: A person's place of employment is teaching employees the basic skills of how to clean up after themselves?

This "me" generation of cellphone talking, ipod lis'nin, backpack wearin' Ritilin kids is embarrassing. Seems like they don't take responsibility for anything. What some of these punks needed in school were 3 or 4 cracks across the @$$ for discipline, but thanks to the liberals, public schools can't do that anymore.
Like somebody else said, what's the deal with these punks wearing sunglasses backwards on the back of their heads? Am I missing something or just getting old. :erm:

 

[BoilerUP]

...so basically folks want to be compensated like a professional without acting like one?

 

[FmrFreightDog]

What some of these punks needed in school were 3 or 4 cracks across the @$$ for discipline, but thanks to the liberals, public schools can't do that anymore.

Oh crap. This just turned into a 10 page thread...

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Oh crap. This just turned into a 10 page thread...

Yeah, I'm bored today. I figured I'd stir the pot a little by getting some of these uptight ninnies going.

 

[DX Rick]

Oh crap. This just turned into a 10 page thread...

Woo hoo! I'm always up for an old fashion a$$ whoppin!

The problem with some of these guys, is that they have never had to earn their keep. Some of them even paid their way to that seat. You don't understand how good you have it, until you have worked to earn it. Until then, we will have to keep cleaning up after these pigs, just like their mommys still do at home.

"Mommy, can you do my laundry and make me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich!? I have to go fly my jet today!"

 

[Sig]

What some of these punks needed in school were 3 or 4 cracks across the @$$ for discipline, but thanks to the liberals, public schools can't do that anymore.

You can thank my mom for part of that- because she stepped into the line of fire from a Bible-thumping redneck renegade that loved kicking the $hit out of kids at the school she was a nurse at.

The story made it (pictures and all) to 60 minutes when I was in 6th grade. The principal was later fired, but not before he "visited" my 6th grade math class and gleefully showed us the tool he used to blacken some backsides.

Two of the children were tied by their hands to a pipe in the janitor's closet and beaten until they passed out. It was atrocious what this sadistic puke did to these kids. For what, you ask? THEY HAD THE GALL TO SHOW UP LATE FOR SCHOOL, TWICE. Why? They had to walk. Sometimes, when the weather was crap, it took longer.

I tell you this- any human being that lays a hand on my 5 year old daughter in the name of "discipline" will very shortly find themselves at the wrong end of 215 pounds of fury doing his best to make them "perished." I'll be the one to tan her butt when she needs it, not some self-righteous perv whose Viagra is meting out corporal punishment on children.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Sig,
That is a horrific story, and that is not even close to what I am talking about when I say "corporal punishment". That is abuse, in every sense of the word. We can all agree that abuse and corporal punishment are 2 separate things.

Back when corporal punishment was in "full swing", I can remember smarting off to a teacher in grade school. I can tell you that I did this once..and only once. After I got spanked by the assistant principal, I went home with a note, the school called my parents and I got my butt spanked again by my dad. Needless to say, I didn't smart off to a teacher again.
Remember too, parents had to sign a release to allow the school to spank your child. My dad (military background) certainly signed it.

Nowadays, it's illegal for anybody (teacher) to spank a child. I've even seen it where parents have gotten in trouble for spanking their own children in the privacy of their own homes and CPS has been called to investigate a simple 'spanking'.

I'm certainly not suggesting that corporal punishment is the answer, and I would be very upset if the principal spanked my child, however, some of these kids nowadays (ie the Paris Hilton types) have probably never had punishment in their lives, and look how they act. Not responsible for jack $hit and no accountability all wrapped up in a cute package with a smart mouth.

 

[Sig]

My emotions run hot on that one.

The younger of the two kids was my buddy. He couldn't sleep for a week for the pain, and I bet that he (what, now some 25 years later) still has nightmares.

I make the mistake all too often of jumping from a butt swat to all out butt kicking. Maybe it was the way I was raised... not many swats, tons of kicking- dad was pretty severe. I have a very low regard for hitting children because of it.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

yeah, I agree.

spanking is totally different from kicking, hitting with a closed fist or even hitting at all. It is obvious that unfortunately, what your describing is just abuse.
Honestly speaking, I spank my children, in conjunction with time outs, removing privileges, and other techniques. When I say spank, I mean on the butt and only on the butt and no more than one or two.

 

[acaTerry]

You can thank my mom for part of that- because she stepped into the line of fire from a Bible-thumping redneck renegade that loved kicking the $hit out of kids at the school she was a nurse at.

The story made it (pictures and all) to 60 minutes when I was in 6th grade. The principal was later fired, but not before he "visited" my 6th grade math class and gleefully showed us the tool he used to blacken some backsides.

Two of the children were tied by their hands to a pipe in the janitor's closet and beaten until they passed out. It was atrocious what this sadistic puke did to these kids. For what, you ask? THEY HAD THE GALL TO SHOW UP LATE FOR SCHOOL, TWICE. Why? They had to walk. Sometimes, when the weather was crap, it took longer.

I tell you this- any human being that lays a hand on my 5 year old daughter in the name of "discipline" will very shortly find themselves at the wrong end of 215 pounds of fury doing his best to make them "perished." I'll be the one to tan her butt when she needs it, not some self-righteous perv whose Viagra is meting out corporal punishment on children.

You're taking a severe case and making it look as if it were the definition of discipline. We're talking about punishment, not abuse, which is clearly the case of your example.

The problem is that these extreme cases have been beaten (no pun intended) to death and now the pendulum has flung far, far too much in the other direction.