Captain Moak's Nov. 8 letter...

[Flopgut]

I'm certainly no Moak supporter, but his letter is absolutely accurate. I don't like it, but it's the truth.

The "internal national survey" he is speaking to didn't conclude before Prater changed ALPA's policy. How can a survey find anything when it doesn't conclude? Especially when the first two surveys very clearly sent a mandate opposite what John acted on and they nearly overlapped...

The worst part is I think this letter will have the opposite effect and fewer dollars will go to PAC. I know that after I read how he characterized the age change I'm not going to send any money. And if something came across my desk for an independent union, I'd be more interested.

Additionally, what is this "the past is the past stuff"? Those are the words we all have to hear after some crappy mgt team has made a billion dollar error and your company has gone BK and the CEO doesn't wants to avoid the responsibility. You expect that out of CEOs. That phrase is basically an admission of guilt and almost a request (of sorts) that you accept being betrayed again....

 

[jynxyjericho]

I'm certainly no Moak supporter, but his letter is absolutely accurate. I don't like it, but it's the truth.

How do you respond to the links above then?

 

[Neubyfly]

I'm certainly no Moak supporter, but his letter is absolutely accurate. I don't like it, but it's the truth.

Didn't you pay for training and, just to sit in the right seat at Gulfstream???

That was some anti-union activity, no?

 

[PCL_128]

No, it is not 'absolutely accurate'.

Look at the survey results I linked to up thread.

"Do you favor changing the Age 60 rule?" was a clear and resounding NO by membership.

Moak and ALPA National only gets to a "majority of the membership supported raising Age 60 to the ICAO standard" by combining "Drop Opposition" and "Modify Policy" answers to their second (leading) question. Which actually didn't mention the ICAO standard.

While 'truth' is written by the victors, Moak and ALPA National's version of the truth regarding the wishes of ALPA membership toward Age 60 is little more than facts spun and manipulated to meet their desires.

I didn't like the modified question, but the results were pretty clear. The pilots who voted supported a change to policy in the event that it looked like the age was going to change anyway. And the truth is, the age was going to change anyway. We weren't going to be able to stop it. Someone with real political savvy like Captain Woerth probably could have held it off for another year or two, but it was coming eventually.

The worst part is I think this letter will have the opposite effect and fewer dollars will go to PAC.

I'm not sure if that's true, but I do think it probably would have been better to simply not discuss it at all in the letter. No reason to open old wounds.

I know that after I read how he characterized the age change I'm not going to send any money.

Yes, cut off your nose to spite your face. Sounds like a great idea.

Additionally, what is this "the past is the past stuff"? Those are the words we all have to hear after some crappy mgt team has made a billion dollar error and your company has gone BK and the CEO doesn't wants to avoid the responsibility. You expect that out of CEOs. That phrase is basically an admission of guilt and almost a request (of sorts) that you accept being betrayed again....

The past is the past, and frankly, there's nothing we can do to change it. Just like this crappy seniority deal that just got shoved down my throat at AirTran, there's nothing that can be done, so it doesn't do any good to keep complaining and being pissed off about it. All you can do is move on and try to make the best of it. You being angry about Age 65 isn't going to change it, and you not contributing to the PAC isn't going to change it or get back at Captain Prater. He'll be retiring in a few years, and whether you contribute a dime to the PAC or not, he won't be affected. Let it go.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Didn't you pay for training and, just to sit in the right seat at Gulfstream???

That was some anti-union activity, no?

Bumped again to show how PCL_128 is a hypocritical d0uche.

 

[Double Shot]

Hey pcl...
You don't want to be here...then please leave.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Hey pcl...
You don't want to be here...then please leave.

Agreed.

PCL there is not a snowballs chance in hell that you are going to be able to work inside of SWAPA. You might as well interview with Delta so you can keep sucking off the ALPA tit for as long as they stick around.

However after the TWA pilots have their way with ALPA I am thinking their days are numbered.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Hateful responses for $500 Alex.

 

[flyboyike]

The past is the past, and frankly, there's nothing we can do to change it. Just like this crappy seniority deal that just got shoved down my throat at AirTran, there's nothing that can be done, so it doesn't do any good to keep complaining and being pissed off about it. All you can do is move on and try to make the best of it. You being angry about Age 65 isn't going to change it, and you not contributing to the PAC isn't going to change it or get back at Captain Prater. He'll be retiring in a few years, and whether you contribute a dime to the PAC or not, he won't be affected. Let it go.

You may be right, but I'm sort of hopeful that if there is enough being pissed and complaining out there, maybe the next hosejob (age 75) might get derailed.

And yes, things can be done, the US can't be less restrictive than ICAO, but we can be more restrictive all we want.

 

[vetrider]

ICAO wears the pants nowdays. I just did my distance learning and more things are going the ICAO way as we speak. What happened to the world famous American(not the airline) arrogance?

 

[Guppiedriver]

Moak is a joke... plain and simple. He was a tool here at DAL and now a larger tool at ALPA.

Three words - Delta Pilots Association - DAL pulls out of ALPA, 98% chance ALPA implodes and Mr. Moak will be the one who gets the credit for destroying ALPA. Lets see him talk his way out that... freaking jackass.

If I were you I wouldn't trust the founders of DPA as far as you could throw them. Look at the attorneys that they have retained:

Who are the DPA attorneys, why were they chosen and is DPA in a contract with them?

Seham, Seham, Meltz and Peterson (SSMP Law) was selected to assist us with this phase of our organizing process for two major reasons. First and foremost, they have successfully assisted two major ALPA carriers (American and USAir) with the process of exiting ALPA. The circumstances at USAir are completely different from Delta in that they exited ALPA without a contract in force and deliberately divided the group, using superior numbers to remove a problem created by ALPA representation.

Seham, Seham, Meltz and Peterson facilitated the division between the east and west.

 

[Draginass]

ALPA is a lapdog union to the ATA. They've given up scope, pay, EVERTHING and then this dolt Moak has the nerve to write BS like that?

The major airlines and the commuters, both associated to ALPA, do NOT work for the same interests. ALPA has consistently given away larger and larger airplanes to badly compensated commuter airlines.

It's time that DALPA and UAL ALPA rid themselves of the stink of ALPA and Moak and start fighting to take back the profession.

 

[Mamma]

I didn't like the modified question, but the results were pretty clear. The pilots who voted supported a change to policy in the event that it looked like the age was going to change anyway. And the truth is, the age was going to change anyway. We weren't going to be able to stop it. Someone with real political savvy like Captain Woerth probably could have held it off for another year or two, but it was coming eventually.

Here is the crux of the problem. Who said it was going to change anyway? If Prater had a set of balls and we had a real union (which we don't) then it would have been politically impossible for anyone to enact the age 65 law. I'm not as concerned with age 65 than I am with ALPA being huge defeatists and saying "it was going to happen anyway." NEWS FLASH....THIS IS WHY YOU HAVE A UNION SO THINGS LIKE THIS JUST DON'T HAPPEN! Prater and a few captains go on "The View" and "Oprah" and the "Today Show" and "Good Morning America" and tell all the soccer moms why this is a bad idea. Be it true or not. Just say we as a 60,000 pilot group think its unsafe and unnecessary to change this law. See how far Oberstar or any politician for that matter get. People trust pilots with their lives and their family's. All we have to do is engage them in the proper mediums.

 

[Mamma]

Anyone....does ICAO have age 65 as the maximum but let each individual airline determine when they want their pilots to retire?