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Capt below mins question

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<Head Shaking>

Here is how I answer it. First before I even start each leg I am evaluating my partner and listening very closely to him/her and always looking for distractors (ie personal issues that create distraction or get homeitis). When I check the ATIS or weather for the airport (weather marginal or at minimums) I start discussing where we are going if we can't get in if the destination goes below minimums and how long we are going to be able to hold. The plants the correct seeds for both of us.

So ultimately at the moment when you call minimums and he or she continues below, first thing and foremost look over and make sure your flying partner is conscious and not having a medical emergency. After that there is a great debate about announcing the go around on the radio or reaching up behind his or her hands and pushing up the power. Fighting for controls down low is just as dangerous as someone ducking under. Just my two cents.

Fly safe,
Humble
 
In the part of the world that I fly, an f.o. would unfortunately NEVER question or challange the cpt. Also, the f.o. will probably be targeted as the cause if there is an incident/accident. Acft Cpts. are revered, they can do no wrong in the public and political eye. You can imagine some of the egos. It happens more often than one would think.

Here, nothing would get done if we never went below published mins. You must know the enviroment intimitely. You also need to make sure that your f.o. knows that he is there to work with you and not for you. Capts. that are from the region are real good pilots but they treat their crews like they are there to serve, do nothing unless told to.

Fortunately, up north, people are held acountable for their f.up's.
I'm not sure, but I don't think that it is very common for a 121 CREW to bust mins intentionally unless they have a believeable reason that can be explained to the man.

Fly safe.
 
One Star Disappointment

I espied the one star rating on this thread and clicked on it with the same guilty enthusiasm one has when rubbernecking past a car accident.

To my dismay, however, I found in IAHERJ's post one of the most insightful and complex thoughts I've read. Being overbearing may be okay. Being wrong may be okay. But put the two together and we got problems.

Things ain't always as they seem. Or rather, things ain't always as we perceive. Our perception of things is often skewed by a bunch of things: lack of experience, or too much experience, or mother issues (in my case, I don't think I was breast fed long enough), or fatigue, or whatever.

Taking the pipes from the aircraft commander is a pretty big deal. Not to say it's inconceivable, but many of the people with more militant responses to this question have probably themselves gone Decision Height Two Potato before in their career. (not me. I've never once come close to deviating from any FAR or SOP. For example, to be on the safe side, I never fly faster than 200 knots below 10,000'.)

There's a difference between how you'd react when the aircraft is in or is definitely headed for extremis and how you'd participate in a testosterone fueled conflict about who's right.

And if I ever say anything just to get my voice on the CVR, I'll know it's really time to get the number for that truck driving school.
 
a-v-8er said:
Just curious... What would you do if the Capt went below minimums during an approach? and what if he/she said "don't worry about it" if you challange him/her?
Click to expand...

Bring the gear up as I said "Gear UP, GO AROUND at the Top of my LUNGS" of course pushing the throttles to the wall would also occur if they did not respond to the Crew Call: Go-Around!!!........

Next Issue????
 
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SafetyTheSeat,

I hope your minimums are pretty high because pulling the gear up at 100 feet or even 50 feet in my airplane and many others would cause contact with the runway even if the guy executed a perfect go-around from the time he noticed your raising of the gear. Heck, we touch the wheels on a go-around from a cat II or high cat III and consider that normal and expected. I think the yelling might be in order however I'd think about raising the gear on my own while the captain is flying.

IAHERJ
 
From 200 feet to touchdown you have about 8 seconds, no real time for a discussion. The reality is that as long as you stay on the glideslope to the ground you should be O.K. I say should as aircraft, snow, and many other factors can affect the glideslope indicator. Once you get on the ground it is for sure time for a cup of coffee together, if caffiene doesn't work go the other route for a beer after the day. I wouldn't get too excited about one time on an ILS, on a non-precision I would get real excited real quick. If the attitude seems to be an habitual pattern I would discuss it with him with another captain that he respects. If that doesn't work I would go to professional standards committee. If that does't work then it is really out of your hands. Remember on an ILS approach the minimums are vis. DH is just that an altitude to make a decision. The standards are all over Part 91, Part 121, Part 135 and your FOM. Know the lights well, study them, they are your logical progression to the end of the runway and a safe landing. If the weather is really low a good captain will brief this progression so you know exactly what to look for.

P.S. I am talking real life on the line, we all know the proper interview question answer.
 
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TurboS7 said:
The reality is that as long as you stay on the glideslope to the ground you should be O.K.

I wouldn't get too excited about one time on an ILS, on a non-precision I would get real excited real quick.

If the attitude seems to be an habitual pattern I would discuss it with him with another captain that he respects.

If that doesn't work I would go to professional standards committee.

If that does't work then it is really out of your hands.

Know the lights well, study them, they are your logical progression to the end of the runway and a safe landing.
Click to expand...
Well, shucks. I reckon we should dispense with the complicated CAT II and CAT III procedures, and just fly the ILS down to the ground every time. Dispense with minimums altogether, make standardization a breeze. Flare on the radio altimeter if you need to break the descent rate, just for comfort, of course.

::: Shaking head in disbelief :::


Is there a limit to the number of "if that doesn't work"s that you can tolerate?

My kids get mad at their Daddy from time to time, but I don't think they'd be thrilled to attend his funeral because he was being "patient" with a Captain with a complete disregard for safety.
 

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