Can you switch to tower at the marker?

[Buschpilot]

Someone once told me that you can automatically switch frequencies at the FAF if the controller has not instructed you to do so, but I can't find reference to this anywhere.

Anyone know if this is true, or if it once was true?

 

[Rick1128]

If approach or center has not handed you off to the tower by the marker, I would and have on numerous occasions just switched over to the tower. I would first attempt to ask approach if they want me on tower. Sometimes they just forgot. but what usually happens is that they get busy with someone else and you just fell through the cracks. If approach is busy, I just switch over. The tower is expecting you. At a large number of airports the approach controller sits right next to the local (tower) controller and hands the strip off early.

I don't believe it is written down any where, but common sense indicates that you need to take the inititive when appropiate. And that situation it appears to be appropriate.

 

[ksu_aviator]

I would switch only if the controller is really busy, other wise just ask. If you are at a small airport where center is the approach control and the tower is VFR only you might cause a moment of confusion by leaving when you aren't instructed to do so. Just ask, they'll clear you. But don't automatically switch.

 

[172driver]

No, you can't and...yes, you should. Definitely try to tell approach first but if they're too busy, you better switch. It is technically against the rules but the controllers and common sense would prefer it if you switch rather than not. It becomes a safety issue if you don't.

ksu...you must fly somewhere less busy than I. Often, my aircraft could be passing the middle marker or even the airport before I can get a word in to approach. This does not please the tower very much, let me tell you. I agree that if you can tell approach, you should. If not, you can't come bombing in to a controlled field without talking to them. If the controllers forgot the handoff, let them pick up the landline and figure out where you went for themselves.

 

[avbug]

Just like imminent course passage when intercepting the localizer...if you haven't got word, then ask. In this case, if you haven't been advised to switch over to tower, ask, then switch over.

It's possible that someone is tying up the controller or causing other problems, and for y ou, this is a lost communication system. If you can't talk to the controller because he or she is busy or the frequency is tied, then this is no different than being unable to talk at all.

What will you do in the event you can't talk to the controller at all? You'll switch to the next controller, right? Before trying other options, this is only prudent. Switch to tower, and if tower asks if you were handed off, then advise that you were unable to talk, and at the marker. At the worst, you'll only have to explain yourself, and the approach controller will probably be grateful that you took the initiative to make the switch.

 

[LR25]

I found if you switch to tower without being handed off becuase of frequency congestion, I just say real quick without alot of talk "FLT # with you for 9R" 99% of the time they say clear to land or your #2 for the runway, they know your coming.

One time going into PDK in a Learjet, ATL APP switches us to tower, we check on with them, they say "continue".

So here we are with about 30 other airplanes on the freq. (couldnt get a word in egdewise) and right about the time we are about to have to go around, we finally were able to get a word in " is Lear xxx cleared to land" she says in a annoyed voice "YES" like we were allready suppost to know.

Im sure it happens everyday, but it lets you know that they are not perfect and can make mistakes.

Bottom line, you have to go with your instinct, make sure you are doing the right thing.

 

[avbug]

You know, I once did the very same thing...except that I did go around. I was just climbing on the go-around when the tower finally comes up and asks what I'm doing, and the nature of my emergency.

I advised that I had no emergency, but didn't have a clearance to land. Tower told me they expected me to land. The runway was clear, the weather was clear, and here am I going around for no good reason than I lacked the clearance.

My concern then was being violated for landing without a clearance. In retrospect, were I placed in that situation again, I'd land. The question always exists as to weather some situation my be that would make the landing inadvisable...traffic not clear, crossing traffic, intersecting runway, whatever. A valid reason, aside from frequency congestion or sleeping controllers (had it happen) might be applicable.

All the same, if it's visual, I'm more interested in what I see out of the cockpit than what I hear on the radio, and a clear runway ahead is likely a better scenario in the interest of safety than an unnecessary go-around. One must consider all the circumstances, and I'm not advocating any one course of action. However, given the same situation again, based on hindsight, I'd land, and then talk to ground.

 

[Humblepilot]

Disagree

Avbug,

I disagree with your hindsight. You made the correct decision. Without a landing clearance you did exactly the right thing.

I have gone around in perfect cavu weather and I have gone around with 1800 RVR. But what if I developed the mindset that I am going to make the decision or not on landing without a clearance. The safest thing is without a landing clearance, go around.

I would have told the tower controller if you wanted (expected)me to land, a landing clearance would have been nice.

Fly safe,

Humble

 

[avbug]

There are times when extreme frequency congestion, a stuck mic, or a radio failure occur in such a circumstance. Rather than try to go around at a busy location with a potential lost comm situation, landing may very well be the safest thing to do. Based on hindsight and seeing the total picture, I would have landed, and will do so if placed in the same situation again.

 

[Saabslime]

I had this exact same thing happen in Detroit. Handed off by approach late and couldn't get a word in to tower. We went around and got a good verbal lashing by the controller. What he said was "In DTW when approach hands you off to us, you're automatically cleared to land. We know you're coming." Personally if this ever happens again, I'll go around again. After all the money and years spent working my way up the ranks in this industry, I'm not going to risk a violation based on some controllers verbal assurance.

 

[The FNG]

Here's a novel idea:

Check in with tower on the other radio!

Give up company to talk to tower.

So what if you haven't checked out with approach before checking in with tower, you're still up if they want to talk.

Then if you're feeling really crazy, try scratching your nuts at the same time.

 

[avbug]

I believe that's the general idea that everybody has been putting across. Don't wait: go to tower. However, the thread also shifted from the idea of weather or not to call (call: that's a given), to what to do if unable to get the clearance from the tower (stuck mic, fequency congestion, NoRad, etc).

If you're getting close and haven't heard, you're required to query ATC. If that doesn't work, then try tower directly, and if unable to raise them there, you need to be looking for a light signal (got one, last year...first time in a very long time), and considering contact on 121.5 as a final alternate soloution.

 

[AVI8V1]

I like the FNG's style.

 

[Eric]

Ahhh.....what it actually takes for this stuff to sink in!

I read this thread in December, and experienced it today. Late handoff from approach- we called 1 mile final. Tower was upset and told us to switch at the FAF if not handed off.

Having experienced the rote, I can correlate that I was an idiot

 

[nosehair]

aaahhh...what to do? The never-ending question about what to do when....the existing situation is not defined in writing.
Here's the deal: Land with no clearance, and no one is hurt or surprised (99% of the time), and tower pats you on the back for doing "what they expect." Land with no clearance, and run into a crossing vehicle or make the 747 behind you go-around, or land on top of you, and it is YOUR fault. You Decide. Be situationaly aware. Any movement on or around the runway / taxiway entrance?...was anybody else on the approach? If you are sure enough, land...if you have any doubt, go-around and take the tounge lashing from the cretins behind the controller's mike. You decide.

 

[Vector4fun]

FWIW, my opinion as a controller:

I appreciate the folks that check with approach before just switching over. But I can see switching if you can't get an answer. A lot of the time we get distracted and busy. Often, tower is calling us to switch somebody.

As for landing without clearance, that actually happens with some regularity. If no safety problem, and because of communications foul-up, usually no big deal. But let me make plain that there is NO rule saying you're automaticaly cleared to land because you have an approach clearance, either in the FARs or in the 7110.65, 7210.3 etc. You may be "expected to" by the controller at the time, but it's no rule. The rule is you should have a landing clearance.

If you DO go around though, remember this: Your missed approach may NOT be clear of traffic! Unless the WX is IFR, we don't routinely protect the missed approach path. If we did, we'd never move traffic. The tower now has to QUICKLY make a plan for your miss, execute it, coordinate it with the approach control or Center. The "attitude" you may have gotten from the tower controller is just frustration. Don't worry about it.

I would just say try to maintain some situational awareness and do what you think is MOST SAFE at that moment and in that situation. It may be go-around, it may be land. Can't make a "rule" that fits every situation. Even though FAA and Lawyers try.....

 

[Bernoulli]

I have had a tounge lashing from a class D tower controller for not switching to tower sooner. I think the best rule of thumb is to definetly switch to tower after the FAF if Approach has not handed you off. I really like the idea of calling on the other radio if you feel approach is real busy.

 

[AceCrackshot]

Vector4fun-
I was under the impression that at the FAF you could automatically switch to tower...that is, there is a regulatory basis for it...I remember reading it somewhere, but I am too lazy to look it up.

This has happened to me multiple times in DEN, but no where else. Even DCA and LGA manage to clear people to land...sometimes even in the flare...FWIW.

 

[Vector4fun]

Vector4fun-
I was under the impression that at the FAF you could automatically switch to tower...that is, there is a regulatory basis for it...I remember reading it somewhere,

Ace, the only thing "regulatory" I find in the Controller's Handbook, 7110.65 is:

5-9-4. ARRIVAL INSTRUCTIONS

Issue all of the following to an aircraft before it reaches the approach gate:


yada, yada, yada,


d. Instructions to do one of the following:

NOTE-
The principal purpose of this paragraph is to ensure that frequency changes are made prior to passing the final approach fix. However, at times it will be desirable to retain an aircraft on the approach control frequency to provide a single-frequency approach or other radar services. When this occurs, it will be necessary to relay tower clearances or instructions to preclude changing frequencies prior to landing or approach termination.

1. Monitor local control frequency, reporting to the tower when over the approach fix.

2. Contact the tower on local control frequency.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Communications Release, Para 4-8-8.

3. Contact the final controller on the appropriate frequency if radar service will be provided on final on a different frequency.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Final Controller Changeover, Para 5-10-8.

4. When radar is used to establish the final approach fix, inform the pilot that after being advised that he/she is over the fix he/she is to contact the tower on local control frequency.


Point of info, Para 4-8-8 simply says:





4-8-8. COMMUNICATIONS RELEASE

If an IFR aircraft intends to land at an airport not served by a tower or FSS, approve a change to the advisory service frequency when you no longer require direct communications.

It is also true that most facility manuals state that arrivals

should be changed to the Tower Freq somewhere between fifteen miles and the FAF.

However, I've never found anything that says the pilot should just go ahead and do it. Now, having said that, I again say that I completely understand a pilot doing it if unable to communicate with the approach controller. Happens every week. My main concern is that somebody assumes they're supposed to land without a landing clearance. That happens too. Usually totaly safe and expected, but not necessarily legal.

 

[CaSyndrm]

It aint rocket science. Change over at the marker even if you can't talk to aproach, but make an attempt shortly before if you haven't been instructed. NO CLEARANCE TO LAND, DON'T LAND...

To many stories and experiences to tell but, it aint brain surgery...

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There are times when extreme frequency congestion, a stuck mic, or a radio failure occur in such a circumstance. Rather than try to go around at a busy location with a potential lost comm situation, landing may very well be the safest thing to do. Based on hindsight and seeing the total picture, I would have landed, and will do so if placed in the same situation again.

Avbug,

You will NEVER be violated for going around. You will be if you land without a clearance. The Feds are out for blood on runway incursions. Too many things going on at a large airport that you may not be aware of to risk a landing without a clearance.

 

[bobbysamd]

Contacting tower

I learned that you contact the tower when instructed to do so by Approach or whoever. Also, I certainly would not land unless the Tower clears me to land. My $0.02 is that Avbug did the right thing by going around. The controller might be irate but it is your pilot certificate. A situation like that is worth the postage and time for a NASA report.

 

[wickedpilot]

I have a story that somewhat fits this scenario.

I was shooting the ILS 20L into PDK. ATL appch was not extremely busy and handed me off to twr. When I transmitted to let twr know i was w/ them, the pust to talk failed. I quickly switched from COMM 1 to COMM 2 to see if that would help. Still could not transmit. I could however still hear the twr.

Because I had not yet checked in, and twr was expecting me, they made the call: Duchess XXX are you on this freq.
I replied: Affirmative XXX, but the transmission did not go through.
I had not been cleared to land, and was on a very short final. Just a I began to apply go-around pwr, the twr controller cleared me to land on the assumption I either A: forgot to check in or B: had partial radio failure.

After landing and clearing the active rwy, I squawked 7600. The twr cleared me for taxi to the ramp as a result. No light Gun. I guess that b/c I landed (ie. heard the clearance) they figured I was receiving but could not transmit.

 

[POKEY]

A similar situation that I see with some regularity is not being handed off to dep., particularly during a big push when they are trying to get as many planes out as possible. I often swith to dep. on my own and I have never heard anything from the controllers about it.

 

[ArmyPilot]

This happens a lot...

I have been "forgotten" on approach many times and also have been told to "continue" by tower and had to query for a landing clearance real close to the flare. My two sense is this, if you where not given a landing clearance then why would you even think about landing? You are making all kinds of assumptions when you take it upon yourself to land without the clearance. Rules are rules and it's simple, get a landing clearance or go around. It's your ticket not the tower controllers.

Just my 2 cents...

 

[Gulfstream 200]

anyone ever LAND while still on approach freq?

..not that it happened to me, but I know someone who it did....

 

[DitchDriver]

anyone ever LAND while still on approach freq?

..not that it happened to me, but I know someone who it did....

Plenty of times, but only when the same controller worked approach, tower, ground and clearance at the same time.