Can you Buy a 135 Certificate?

[knelson]

Sorry for the duplicate thread, thought it would get more reads here:


I have some folks that are interested in buying a Citation 550 and would like to put it on 135. Just curious if you can purchase an existing certificate or if every operator must develop their own with the wonderful support and customer service of inspector friendly down at the local FSDO. Thanks for any info.

Kevin

 

[C601]

Kevin,

It could cost you more than what your C-550 is worth with buying a 135cert and then adding a Citation on a to it.

Yes you can buy them, then only way to keep the cost down is finding a 135cert that already has a Citation 550 on it. And that will be hard.

Most FAA 135certs that I have been offered to buy are part of a package deal, meaning the flight charter company lock,stock and barrel come with purchasing it. And normally its the CEO trying to flee the sinking ship.

The best way I have found is get a Part 91cert and 1 or 2 yrs later start the process for a Cert135, with a Local FAA office. Build up a good relationship with them can turn out to be usefull in the long run.

Good luck ...

 

[avbug]

Put the airplane on someone else's certificate, and operate it under that certificate. Typically you'll be charged something in the order of a 2,000 fee, and naturally you'll be subject to that firm as though you are an employee (technically, you are, even if you pay your own wages).

Become established, develop a clientele, and develop your own certificate over the next year and a half.

I worked with a company earlier this year as they tried to put a Lear on. They are in the final stages of completing the process right now. Presently I'm doing the same with a company attempting to get an initial 135, in a King Air. They have been operating the airplane under an operators certificate, and are attempting to obtain their own. I anticipate that this one will be done within the next two to three months (hopefully).

In this manner, you can get on line, fly, and have the time to develop your own certificate with operational knowledge of your airplane, your desired policies, and proceedures.

Several commercial companies are available to help set up all the paperwork, if you wish. This can greatly reduce your time in the process, and streamline your effort.

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Put the airplane on someone else's certificate, and operate it under that certificate. Typically you'll be charged something in the order of a 2,000 fee, and naturally you'll be subject to that firm as though you are an employee (technically, you are, even if you pay your own wages).

Is $2,000.00 per month a pretty standard management fee to put a jet (C-550, B400, Lear) on someone else's 135 certificate? If not, what would be a typical range for management fees per month?

The reason I ask is the company I am working for now has been approached by an individual that would like to put his jet on our certificate. He told me he has one monthly management quote as low as a couple hundred dollars per month. We can't justify putting this aircraft on our certificate for a couple hundred dollars per month unless ther are additional fees added elsewhere in the operational cost. Why would a company be willing to increase their liability and manage an aircraft this cheap? We will have to hire additional pilots and pass on all fixed costs to the aircraft owner (insurance, crew costs, training fees, hangar costs, etc.).

We could make some money if we charter this aircraft out in addition to the agreed upon flight time for the owner but that is a big IF. What are others doing?

 

[avbug]

I'd be hesitant to say it's an average, because I just don't know. Two to three thousand seems to be a common number for including an airplane on the certificate.

That doesn't include providing anything, however. That's simply to list the aircraft on the certificate. Additional fees may apply for training the crewmembers provided by the owner, etc.

If someone wants to put an airplane on your certificate and have you fly it, it becomes more of a dry lease arrangement on your part; no owner will pay you to use their airpalne and fly it. I think here we're talking about a situation in which a company doesn't have authorization for a specific aircraft type under their own certificate (or perhaps they don't have a certificate),and they want it on yours. In such a case, they typically provide the pilots, maintenance, etc.

To do this, they need their maintenance approved under your program; there are certain costs associated with this, and they'll vary with the type of maintenance program, the type of work required, the aircraft, etc.

The crew must be trained under your certificate and must have checkrides and currency under your certificate, and must abide by your operations specifications. Your certificate will need approval to operate that aircraft. Generally when this kind of arrangement is made, it's done when you already hold this authorization; that's why the interested party is coming to you in the first place.

The interested party should be paying for the cost of training the crewmembers, the checkrides, etc. The 2,000 dollar fee is for the privilege of using your name, and operating under your certificate. The amount will vary according to the type of operation and aircraft involved, of course. A two grand fee to operate a Cessna 172 might be a bit much, but might be quite appropriate for a light jet.

Essentially, the two grand is for your liability and for your good name. The aircraft being operated in this manner is being operated as one of your company aircraft, and accordingly you can only extend yourself as far as you are comfortable. A couple hundred dollars wouldn't make me very comfortable. Having said that, even if the management fee is five thousand, you still need to recognize that you hold operational control over this aircraft. You may not be paying the pilot wages, or you might. It doesn't matter; it's still you that holds operational control...and that's a lot of weight for a few hundred dollars.

Additionally, you become responsible for managing maintenance personnel and flight personnel on a drug program, and you are responsible for the facilities and practices to be used at the operating location for this aircraft. Again, all expenses to you, and liabilities...as well as adherence to all practices, operations specifications, etc. This can be a bit of a sticky position. The operator of the other aircraft is sometimes likely to feel autonomous, and feel as though they've paid for the privilege to do so, when it's not the case. If you both get on well together, then fine, but if not...it can provide for a sticky environment in which to work.

If the jet provider can really find someone to manage their airplane for two hundred dollars, let it go. You can't compete with such a ridiculous amount. However, I surmise that this person is going far overboard in trying to lowball you; not a good sign of things to come. Getting aircraft to put on your certificate is easy; getting good partners isn't. If this person is pulling this before you're even connected financially, I'd flush them. My opinion only.

 

[BradG]

On the question as to whether or not you can buy a certificate from its current holder, the answer is no. A 135 operating certificate is not transferable from company to company. What would have to happen is you would have to purchase the company which holds the certificate. Hope this helps....

 

[350DRIVER]

We have a C90B and a 350 that is on our certificate and I believe the fee that we get per month is in upwards of $1,000 per month that is charged for them to be on. The owner of these two airplanes has found that he has had the FAA very "curious" about certain things so if you do this make sure that no short cuts are being taken and you use and know the company's ops specs and you abide by them to the utmost. Even though this person has incorporated his own company name in which he markets the company, advertises, etc, etc, this can cause trouble since in reality he is not operating on his own certificate and the certificate holders sticker needs to be clearly visible on aircraft, etc, etc, ... Small things like this has caused the FAA to be not completely happy with the situation. I know many people who have done this and it surely cuts down on the hassle, paperwork, etc, etc, just make sure you are not taking any short cuts or doing something that the local fsdo may not approve of.

There is a company in Denver that will get you a certificate, write it up, etc, etc, for a fee of somewhere between $4,000-$6,000 dollars. You do have other options out there and it really comes down to what your owners personal preference is or may be.

I personally would just put the aircraft on an existing 135 ticket since it is cheaper this way ( in most cases) and it really cuts down on the hassle and time.


good luck

3 5 0

 

[RichardFitzwell]

Thanks again avbug.

You are correct in your assumption that the current aircraft owner doesn't have a 135 certificate. They want to put their aircraft on our certificate and have us crew it, which they will indirectly pay for. They also want most of the aircraft maintenance (A through D checks) to be performed through our facility at a discounted rate.

I agree with you, this might be an attempt to low ball us. We were in the two to three thousand dollar range after figuring in all our operating costs and putting a value on our certificate that we have maintained in good standing for the past ten plus years. I guess all we can do is give our best price and see what happens.