Can you appeal an FAA failed checkride??

[Traumahawk]

I don't think it's that unreasonable of a question....
On my CFI ride the guy used the example of someone wanting to plant the McDonalds Golden Arches on top of his plane. Whatever the ridiculous example(which is a lot more interesting than saying..uh...I want to make my flaps 40 degrees instead of 30...)it was meant to see if I knew about STC's.

Ace, I give you the benefit of the doubt. And I have heard horror stories about ridiculous questions asked of people....

BUT, for the most part, this sounds like the straw that broke the camel's back. Students will always come back and say so and so failed me because I lost 11 degrees during my stalls....
The real story is usually, no, you spun to the left once, the right twice, and after 3 strikes you're out.

I'm not saying this is your scenario, but as genuinly crappy as your experience may have been, you're up against that norm of the situation. Take everyone's advice, deal with it. And whatever you do, don't be bitter about it when asked about it.

And if this truly was the case w/ the DPE, what goes around comes around!

Take er easy....
T-hawk

 

[JJJ]

I had a failed check ride. In 5 interview and job offers I've been asked about it ZERO times.

 

[Northern Lights]

I busted my comm/multi flight. Got low and slow when he failed the engine in the pattern. Anyway I pass the next day with no problems, and it has never been a problem since. On applications I just write what happened and have never been asked about it.

As far as the STC stuff. I think that it was a dumb, perhaps oversized question to begin with ---"What do you have to do...?"
Well you have to do a lot of stuff. I would start with the mechanic, and then when I needed to deal with the FAA I would call the FSDO and make sure I did everything right!

Like the others said, though, it's usually several things that lead up to the bust, although they can give you a pink slip for one wrong answer.

A friend of mine went up for a CFI check, and the examiner pulled out a pink and said asked if he knew what it was. My buddy said yes, and thought that he had failed, but had not. The examiner wanted to know what the instructor would do if his student was issued one.

Anyway... It's just a big game, and it doesn't always seem fair.

Good luck

 

[EOpilot]

Two failed checkrides here. I was asked about them at my ACA interview, but they hired me anyway.

By the way, I probably should have contested the one. Due to a misinterpretation of the regs on my part, and my misguided trust in my completely incompetent CFI, I didn't have the appropriate endorsement and X-C time for a Multi add on to my Comm. He walked in, looked at my logbook, and ten minutes later, without a question asked, I had a pink slip in my hand.

I just took responsibility for my own actions and moved on.

 

[dmspilot00]

I didn't have the appropriate endorsement and X-C time for a Multi add on to my Comm.

You shouldn't have needed X-C time. You shouldn't have needed any time at all for an add-on class rating.

See 61.63(c).

 

[350DRIVER]

I think you are out of luck. You could appeal this but the problem is that you are going to have an uphill battle that most likely will just be a waste of time. One bust should not hold you back as long as you can justify it down the line during some interview if you are asked. The FAA can find any reason to bust you and not much you can do about it, just "accept" it and move on. I was one of the few in my class that passed the ride first time around and it was comical to hear the reasons that the FAA busted the others on, luck does have something to do with it. Funny thing is that everyone else passed on the second time around without a problem. The further you advance in your flying career the more difficult it will become to pass on the "first" time around.

good luck

3 5 0

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I just remembered this story.

A student going for his Private, busts because there was no record of a VOR check in the 152 he was flying.

 

[JediNein]

Checkride Re-Take, Oh My!

Go for it. The only way the FAA knows of bad egg examiners is when the applicants speak up.

From the Designated Examiner's Handbook, any applicant may request a checkride re-take from the FAA for any reason. The FAA is obligated to give you a re-take. It will be a full checkride, Oral and Flight. There will not be any credit given for any successfully completed tasks from the DPE. If you pass, the failure is wiped from your record. If you fail, well, the FAA confirmed the failure by the DPE. I do not know if that counts as two failures or not.

It is possible to re-take an FAA checkride, even a "709" ride, under the "that guy was being mean to me" clause. Use different wordings of course, but know that both you and the inspector giving you the ride are thinking the same thing.

Expect the first question out of the Inspector's mouth when you ask for a re-take is, "Does this person have a history of mental problems?" Assume that the Inspector will think you are nuking futs and prepare accordingly.

Expect the meanest SOB in the FSDO to be assigned to give you the re-ride. If you are 11 degrees off on heading during a maneuver and the standards are 10 degrees, you will fail.

Believe me, you will know a h*ck of a lot more by appealing the failure than just walking away.

A good way to approach this is to call up your local Safety Program Manager and ask for advice. They love giving advice. Tell this person the whole story and ask what you should do. They're Safety, unless there is an imminent threat to life and limb, they can not do anything enforcement- or certificate-wise. But they can tell you which Inspector to discuss your situation with and what to have with you when that occurs.

Sleep on it. Talk with your instructor in the morning. And call the FAA when you are done with the CFI. You don't want to wait for months then have to re-train for the checkride. You may even be able to take the re-ride with a "I want to get the checkride over with, then I will consider a complaint against the examiner."

I know of someone that wrote a textbook, almost, while asking for a checkride re-take and got it granted. I know of another fellow that called up his Fed, said his checkride bust was bullhockey and got the re-ride the next day. Both persons passed their re-ride easily.

Good luck!
Jedi Nein

 

[Ace757]

After I told him that the aircraft was not airworthey without the supplemental type certificate, he got me on the you have to buy the rights to use it from the original person who came up with the idea. I answered the main question dealing with safety and airwortheness, the 2nd one was to bust my balls. I told him I would call the FAA and ask. He said they were closed. Then I said I will wait for them to open, and he said you called and they dont know the answer, and then I questioned him about the FAA not knowing about it since they issued the original STC. And your right, thats not the only reason why I failed. that feather acumulator had a lot to do with it to, even though I read line by line in the POH to try to prove my point. We did spend about 30 minutes on the STC question, and 15 on the feather acumulator, I tried telling him that I didnt know, and if we could move on but he wouldnt hear anything of it. But for the information I had I gave pretty good answers.

Thanks for all the advice though. It looks like I would be fighting a loosing battle

 

[JediNein]

What loosing battle?

You ask the FAA for a checkride retake, they MUST give you one.

Period.

No arguments.

What you do have to do is consider the costs. How much will it cost you financially and emotionally to take a re-take with the FAA? How much will it cost you financially and emotionally if you take an unfair failure? How much will you gain if you shut up and put up? How much will you gain if you fight it?

If you accept the failure, then walk away completely and accept the fact that you didn't meet standards and need more training. No complaining. Take your retraining and pass. When the Interview Boards ask you about the checkride failures, answer honestly that you were unprepared for the ride, got more training, and passed it. Don't breathe a word about unfair, invalid, or not my fault.

Make your decision knowing the true costs and benefits. Only you can make that decision.

Good luck!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

Jedi,

Go back and read what was said for starters. IF he so chooses to take the re-test with the FAA and he does pass, then guess what.?? He will still have a bust from the first ride unless he could get the FAA to side with him and wipe the first check off his record completely and pretend that this flight was his first "attempt", highly unlikely unless he has overwhelming evidence to prove his case. Just because one "busts" a ride with a DPE and does the re-take with the FAA, it really means nothing at all...It is not nearly as easy as you make it out to be. keep in mind that these "DPE's" are picked by the FAA and I find it highly unlikely that they will wipe the slate clean if you cannot show a "trend" of unfair treatment and testing on things outside of what was in the PTS. It is much easier to re-test with the guy that busted him. It would be nothing more than a very steep uphill battle that likely would not be won. Is it "fair"? no, but who said life was fair all the time.

3 5 0

 

[JediNein]

I did read what he said very carefully. I am quite familar with the process for having the FAA do a checkride re-take to replace a DPE's checkride. The words I used probably were too close together in meaning, but what I meant is a world apart.

With no further training and no further endorsement (endorsement requirement may vary with FSDO), but a new 8710, he can take a checkride with the FAA to dispute the result of the DPE's ride. If that ride with the FAA is a pass, the DPE's failure is wiped from the record. The FAA's guidance is very clear on this matter that the applicant can take the FAA ride to replace the DPE ride WITHOUT cause. There is no "highly unlikely" about it.

He doesn't have to complain about the examiner to take a checkride with the FAA that wipes the slate clean. The inspector is going to be awfully d*mn curious about why this person wants to take the ride, but it is the applicant's right to do so.

Is it easy? Only the person taking the re-ride can be the judge of that. After the checkride from h*ll with questions outside the PTS, there's really nothing that the FAA can throw at you that you shouldn't already be able to handle.

Another possibility is he could also have the FAA do the next checkride after retraining and another instructor endorsement. Yes there will be a bust on the record.

Or, he could reward the DPE with another examination fee and take the next checkride with the DPE. I recommend against using the same examiner for the next checkride from the way the applicant felt he was treated.

I have a problem with this DPE acting like a DME (Designated Mechanic Examiner) and forcing the applicant to accept the DPE's incorrect information.

However, it is still ACE757's decision and life. He asked for advice and got it.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

With no further training and no further endorsement (endorsement requirement may vary with FSDO), but a new 8710, he can take a checkride with the FAA to dispute the result of the DPE's ride. If that ride with the FAA is a pass, the DPE's failure is wiped from the record. The FAA's guidance is very clear on this matter that the applicant can take the FAA ride to replace the DPE ride WITHOUT cause. There is no "highly unlikely" about it.

Where does it state that a "dis-satisfied" applicant who fails the ride with a dpe can then go to the local FSDO without any further endorsement, do the oral, take a flight, pass it, and in return the "initial" bust from the dpe is then wiped clean from the slate.? I will patiently await your answer.

He doesn't have to complain about the examiner to take a checkride with the FAA that wipes the slate clean. The inspector is going to be awfully d*mn curious about why this person wants to take the ride, but it is the applicant's right to do so.

Ok, so the FSDO inspector I am sure will not be "curious" on "why" this applicant has come to the fsdo versus taking a re-check with the examiner.?

I am rather curious on where you are getting this information from since I have found nothing at all relating to this in the FAR's and other reference material.


3 5 0

 

[JediNein]

This is difficult to find on purpose. Have you ever met a student that was happy they failed a ride?

DPE's Handbook, Chapter 5, Section 1:

45. REVIEW OF AN EXAMINER'S DECISION. An applicant who is not satisfied with an examiner's decision may obtain another practical test or appropriate reevaluation from an inspector without prejudice. In such cases, the applicant will be given the complete test, including any phases already approved by the examiner. The applicant will prepare a new FAA Form 8710-1 and the inspector will complete a new certification file. Following the retest, both the examiner's and the inspector's certification files are forwarded to AFS-760. The inspector's report determines if a certificate is issued. The inspector will discuss the test results with the applicant and answer any questions relevant to the evaluation. The inspector may also discuss the test results with the examiner separately.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

I'll quote the source as soon as I relocate it. It's difficult to find on purpose. Have you ever met a student that was happy they failed a ride?

I have never met a "happy" student after they have failed a ride. I just find it somewhat "odd" that you are saying that a student who fails a ride with a dpe can then go to the FAA with just the 8710 (without any further training or endorsement), re-test, pass, then have the initial bust removed from the student's file in OKC. I would and have always thought that "proper justification" would be needed to make this work out in the applicant's favor. Once again I will patiently await your response on where to locate this information.

c h e e r s

3 5 0

 

[JediNein]

I editted my post instead of making a new one, sorry. I just immediately put my hands on the paper.

When I say no endorsement, it really does vary by FSDO. I am aware of cases where the person did an FAA ride the day after failing a DPE ride without getting an instructor endorsement. I'm also aware of a FSDO that requires an instructor endorsement. Finally, I know of an Inspector that flat out did not know if an endorsement was required.

It has not been important to get a final answer on the endorsment issue, especially as you don't want to be in the position of having proven the Inspector wrong right before you get your checkride from them.

I always thought that proper justification was needed, too, but just being dissatisfied with the checkride result is enough. Probably has something to do with the 'user fees' arguments.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[350DRIVER]

When I say no endorsement, it really does vary by FSDO. I am aware of cases where the person did an FAA ride the day after failing a DPE ride without getting an instructor endorsement. I'm also aware of a FSDO that requires an instructor endorsement. Finally, I know of an Inspector that flat out did not know if an endorsement was required.

I believe there then would be a double standard in place. I am familiar with quite a few different FSDO's haven't delt directly with them while doing my captain initial and they all have been very clear on the 8710's. I am unsure who told you that this can "vary" depending on what fsdo is in charge.? I have always thought that every fsdo went by the same rules with regards to failed rides, etc, etc, . . . . I believe the cases that you have mentioned are not the "norm" with regards to check rides.

It has not been important to get a final answer on the endorsment issue, especially as you don't want to be in the position of having proven the Inspector wrong right before you get your checkride from them.

I think this issue is somewhat "important" since many CFI's would like a definitive answer regarding this issue. Once again, I have found in no document or text from the FAA site that would elaborate or go into detail on the previous discussed issue. I have a very hard time buying into what has been said but who knows.

I always thought that proper justification was needed, too, but just being dissatisfied with the checkride result is enough. Probably has something to do with the 'user fees' arguments.

I still have a hard time believing that sending a student to a local fsdo after a dpe has busted him without any further training and endorsement is not a good idea and may raise a red flag. When you find the material that states that a "bust" will be removed from the applicant's file I would appreciate you posting where you found it.


3 5 0

 

[bobbysamd]

Stupid Examiner Questions

Well, since you ask, Northern Air Cargo Has an STC for trimming a few inches off the wings of their DC-6's for precisely that reason.

Alright. But is it fair for a new Commercial applicant to know of a DC-6 STC?? No! The examiner was busting balls.

Jedi (welcome back! ) brings up extremely interesting information. However, as a practical matter, there are a couple of compelling and tangible reasons not to bother with an appeal, aside from the ol' boy rationale. (1) It might take a while to schedule a recheck with FSDO, and (2) you might get an inspector who is far tougher and/or a bigger asshole than the designee. What if you bust with the ASI? Is one going to appeal a FSDO bust??

Ace is still better off sucking it up and taking the recheck. Or, he could start over with another DE.

 

[JediNein]

Hi Bobbysamd! (Congrats on 4000+ posts)
There are times when the FSDO moves quite fast, and rechecks, especially with a potential DPE complaint, are one of those times. The bigger the aircraft, the faster the FAA moves.

The ASI might be a bigger jerk than the DPE but the test will be within the practical test standards. It may be a very valuable learning experience to ask the ASI to go through the entire practical test, even if the failure occurs on the second question in the oral, just to have an idea of any multiple areas that may need work before retaking an FAA ride. Except on "709" rides, I have found ASI's to go out of their way to put an applicant at ease before a checkride.

I've also found the attitude of the applicants to be quite different when going for a new FAA ride than on a 709 or initial CFI ride. The applicant's attitude sets the ASI's attitude. For 709 rides, 'it's not my fault' and 'they're being mean to me' attitudes generally prevail. For initial CFI rides, attitudes are all over the place. For FAA rides to replace a DPE ride, the four I've encountered have been "I know I will pass with a fair test and I don't care how many ASIs ride along. Give me the meanest SOB/ASI in the FSDO and let's go fly."

350DRIVER, those cases I mentioned were from people that had failed rides with a DPE, thought the PTS was not met by the DPE, successfully took a new checkride ride with the FAA, and had the DPE failure removed from their records. The only definitive answer on an endorsement would come from the FAA's National Legal Counsel after writing a request for clarification.

Probably most of the cases where this has or might occur, the instructor that sent the applicant to the DPE checkride still thinks the person is qualified to take the checkride and just signs the 8710 without hesitation. In one case, the instructor of a quickie course and the examiner were working together and the instructor refused to endorse the person again without further retraining. That person took his FAA ride and passed without a second instructor endorsement on the 8710, retraining, or more than 2 days from initial DPE ride to FAA ride. It was also in a turbine aircraft.

In the four cases I am familiar with, the "has been retrained after a failed checkride' endorsement in the logbook was not required and in one case was specifically not recommended (do not have this endorsement in your logbook when you come in).

Again, the only final answer will come from FAA's National Legal Counsel. Even with Legal's answer, if the instructor is willing to sign the 8710 and the ASI wants the 8710 signed, get it signed.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[mizzouguy]

Talk to your FSDO. This is a BS question, and i cant imagine asking that in a checkride. He has to answer to his FSDO like I do and they will investigate it. I wouldnt go back to him for a recheck if I were you