Can Pilots Strike after an 1113c?

[islandhopper]

Apparently Aloha Airlines CEO David Banmiller got cold feet just moments before he would have found out.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2006-03-09-aloha-usat_x.htm

Q: Your pilots didn't agree until late 2005 to your proposal of terminating their pension. How close were they to walking out?

A: In November, we walked into court at 10 a.m., and the judge says he already has a ruling. He says, "I don't think either one of you will like the ruling." So I told (the pilots' attorneys) that we've got solve the issue because something tells me he's got big plans here.

I'm not sure pilots can strike, but who wants to try to find out if you can get around it? So we walked across the street (to a lawyer's office), pulled an all-nighter and (had a deal) by next morning.

 

[TWA Dude]

The only way to truly know is for it to happen and be challenged in court. Of course if the airline liquidates a victory would be bitter.

 

[mach none]

Voided contract= No Railway Labor Act...You can strike.

 

[HalinTexas]

During my experience with ATA's bankruptcy I did some research.

While under BK protection, everything is under the judges control. He/she can reject contracts, be they labor, fuel, aircraft, etc. if no renogotiated contract exists if it is in the best interest of company and replace it with one of his own. However, this is temporary and can be appealled. Labor contracts are like any other. He can also enjoin a labor group from striking while the co. is under his protection. This means that you can't strike while under the courts protection.

However, it's anyone's guess what is legal after emergence from bankruptcy. While the RLA is largely suspended during BK, it's back in full force after emergence. No one has tested this. ALPA had the chance with ATA but caved. It would have been a lot cheaper to use us as a test case vs. DAL or NWA.

If NWA votes this TA down, then most likely it will be imposed upon the pilots by the judge anyway. However, the creditors will not sign off on any plan at the confirmation hearing without a long term labor contract agreed to. If NWA/ALPA doesn't come to terms with something, then it could result in the liquidation. They don't have to agree to this TA, but some TA will have to be agreed to.

What I've seen so far, it's a pretty cr@ppy deal.

Good luck.

 

[radarlove]

The answer is...we don't know. Spraygan, the UAL chief bankruptcy attorney swore up and down that it was illegal, other legal scholars said, "Indentured servitude is over, you can't force people to work."

In the end, nobody wanted to press-to-test, so we don't know.

It's not specifically addressed in the RLA, and since it's a fairly new part of the bankruptcy code, there is no case law dealing with it.

So we don't know. It looks like NWA blinked, and we know the UAL pilots blinked, so common thought is that a strike would be worse than any--even the worst--kind of comprimise.

My personal opinion is that striking after a contract is abrogated is 100% legal, but you might see restraining orders and back-to-work judicial orders while things are getting worked out.

 

[islandhopper]

The only way to truly know is for it to happen and be challenged in court. Of course if the airline liquidates a victory would be bitter.

the point is and the purpose of this thread is to show proof positive that even the CEO's of these (our) companies DO NOT want to test the law or see if its legal at their airline.

If the pilots go in knowing that, it can be enough to help level the playing field. Kind of like the Korean Peninsula for the past 50 years. It's whats called a LOSE/LOSE deal.

 

[FDJ2]

He can also enjoin a labor group from striking while the co. is under his protection. This means that you can't strike while under the courts protection.

Sorry, but that is just not true. The Norris-Laguardia act specifically prevents Federal Courts from enjoining a strike. Even DAL's former BK judge, specifically stated in court that she had no jurisdiction to intervene in a strike.

While the company may be under court supervised bankruptcy protection, the unions are not.

 

[FDJ2]

It's not specifically addressed in the RLA, and since it's a fairly new part of the bankruptcy code, there is no case law dealing with it.

The RLA was in existence when both EAL and CAL struck after their contracts were rejected. The 1113 process does not supercede the Norris-LaGuardia act which prevents judges from enjoining a strike.

 

[radarlove]

The RLA was in existence when both EAL and CAL struck after their contracts were rejected. The 1113 process does not supercede the Norris-LaGuardia act which prevents judges from enjoining a strike.

Well, sorta. Mostly the Norris act prohibited companies from requiring employees to sign a contract to not join a union to get hired and put some restrictions on federal courts in injunctions.

Here's a quote, and I would bet Spraygan would argue about "irreperable damage" and "breaking the law" if the pilots were to have gone on strike at UAL:

"Norris-LaGuardia only made Federal injunction relief possible if strikers broke or threatened to break the law, and were doing irreparable property damage. Even then, five days and public hearings had to come to pass before the injunction could take effect."

But I'm not arguing that you're wrong, just that it's not a clear-case and there's a reason all of the judges and attorney's have backed away from the brink--it could come out either way.

Maybe the unions could use the act to keep from getting an injuction, maybe the judge could say that the very real possibility of liquidation of the corporation equaled irreparable property damage.

And yes, 1113 is a fairly new part of the bankruptcy code, especially compared with the 1930s vintage stuff that defined labor law.

 

[pipejockey]

Please vote this down! When will a pilot group finally take a stand and be willing to risk liquidation to stop this madness. That is all it would take. Does everyone realise what a laughing stock we as pilots are during management and major shareholder get togethers?

 

[radarlove]

Please vote this down! When will a pilot group finally take a stand and be willing to risk liquidation to stop this madness. That is all it would take. Does everyone realise what a laughing stock we as pilots are during management and major shareholder get togethers?

Ok. You first, though.

 

[HalinTexas]

Yellow-dog contracts have nothing to do with bankruptcy code. Even the N-L act gave provisions for enjoining in specific cases, i.e. bankruptcy.

Bankruptcy law protects the creditors and stockholders before it protects labor rights. I'll say it again. The judge will do whatever is necessary to protect the creditors, secured first, before anything else. A legal or illegal labor action threatens the rights of the creditor(s), therefore, the judge is within his right to enjoin the unions from striking, just as it can enjoin Boeing (or Airbus, or ILFC) from confiscating airplanes while under his protection.

Once out of BK, all bets are off. There is no law nor precedent.

My advice to DAL and NWA pilots: Dont' agree to long term agreements. Make sure there is some kind of snap-back agreement at the end of it.

 

[HalinTexas]

The RLA was in existence when both EAL and CAL struck after their contracts were rejected. The 1113 process does not supercede the Norris-LaGuardia act which prevents judges from enjoining a strike.

Oh yes it does. See above post. There is something called due diligence that the Co. has to prove, however.

 

[pipejockey]

Ok. You first, though.

No problem! If you are with NWA, my condolences. But I assure you I would STFD when it came to it! This needs to stop. I mean come on, an NWA 747 Capt maxing out at 168 an hour? That is over 20 dollars an hour less than an SWA pilot flying a 180 seater around compared to a 400 seater....Criquey!! Plus they want to cut that even more?? Oh the humanity!! This is the worst catastrophy in the world!! And I'm not being fecitious.

 

[radarlove]

just as it can enjoin Boeing (or Airbus, or ILFC) from confiscating airplanes while under his protection.

You know what's interesting? That was the other Spraygan argument--that the lessors couldn't repo the planes. He was wrong (in my view) on that as well.

If you actually read the bankruptcy code, there is a special section devoted to equipment like railway engines and airplanes. Where a company can't come in and take back their copier machine once you've filed for bankruptcy protection, the same is NOT true about airplanes and train engines--those are specifically allowed to be re-po'd, no questions asked. UAL kept it from happening by claiming anti-trust collusion by the lessors and actually got a court stay (which they shouldn't have).

In the end, they came to an agreement, but the judge that granted the motion to keep from getting the airplanes taken away from UAL was clearly and obviously in the wrong in terms of the law.

DAL was smarter. They just took the engines off and put them in a different building. "Come and get 'em!"

 

[XJohXJ]

Please vote this down! When will a pilot group finally take a stand and be willing to risk liquidation to stop this madness. That is all it would take. Does everyone realise what a laughing stock we as pilots are during management and major shareholder get togethers?

Keep your eyes on Mesaba.

Also: 5 days of striking is plenty long enough.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Ok. You first, though.

Hey great, we found the EXACT spinless reason, and continued drive to the bottom.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

And while we're at it, you sure have the answers for everything. You're just another slick willy, trying to dazzle the masses. Preaching devistation, unless YOU come up with the plan. From your sideline brilliance, I'd say you are the exact definition of a SCAB. Pathetic

 

[Hvy]

Please vote this down! When will a pilot group finally take a stand and be willing to risk liquidation to stop this madness. That is all it would take. Does everyone realise what a laughing stock we as pilots are during management and major shareholder get togethers?

What airline do YOU work for? I'll bet when you're faced with the same situation you'll do no differently than those before you. Talk is cheap, especially when it doesn't affect you!