Can Flight Simulator time count as TT?

[MarineGrunt]

Are you able to count Flight Simulator time as TT, SEL, MEL, etc???

 

[regionalcap]

no

 

[MarineGrunt]

Is there somewhere that specifically says you can't?

 

[dmspilot00]

Yes, the fact that your logbook says "Total duration of FLIGHT"

Try searching the FAR forum, this topic is beat to death regularly.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Is there somewhere that specifically says you can't?

What the logbook calls "total time" or "total duration of flight" is the entry that 61.51 calls

61.51(b)(1)(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

In turn 61.1 says:

Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

Last time I looked, whatever else it may be, a sim is not an aircraft.

 

[EngineOut]

Okay...Total Time is not the same as Total Flight Time! Total Time does include all sim/ftd time provided the equipment meets the requirements of the appropriate regulation. Furthermore, look at an 8710 form. The FAA specifically includes FTD/SIM time under Total Time on the hours breakdown. But it's not flight time.

Total Time = Flight Time + SIM/FTD time

Flight Time = PIC time + SIC time

Since it is not flight time, however, you'd be hard pressed to log the time in a category or class aircraft, regardless of the machine's emulation.

Therefore:
Total Time = YES (no place to "log" that though.
Flight time = NO.
ME = NO.
APPROACHES = YES (if approved).
SIMULATED INSTRUMENT = YES (if approved).
LANDINGS FTDs = NO
LANDINGS SIMs = Depends on the certification level of the sim.

Additionally, all FTD/SIM time must be administered by an appropriately certificated instructor.

If it cannot count for Total Time, how on earth would it be acceptable to meet 135 IFR requirements with less than 1200 hours "flight time," or Commercial 61 requirements with less than 250 hours "flight time?"

Under Part 61:

2.5 hours can apply towards the 40 TT for Private -- 61.109(i)(1)
20 hours can apply towards the IR -- 61.65 (e)(2)
50 hours applied towards the 250 TT for Commercial -- 61.129(i)(1)(i)
50 hours applied toward the ATP 1500 TT -- 61.159(a)(ii)

Keep in mind, though, the 50 hours ATP/50 hours COM/20 hours IR are total. So if you had 50 hours FTD, for example, when you got a COMM, then any future FTD time will not be credited towards the ATP, but the 50 you have will.

Yes, this has been pounded to a pulp in the past. See the most recent at http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2970

 

[de727ups]

hummmm

I had to look you your reference for being able to use a FTD for part of the private license. It's there, 2.5 hours. I'm wondering if this applies to the new approved PCATD's or just the old ATC-610's

 

[B190Captain]

As I understand FTD's cannot count as total time or even simulated for that matter. Level C and D simulators can count towards your total time and that Flight Simulator slot in your logbook.

 

[BRA]

This is a tired topic. Stop trying to cheat things and just follow the rules. It will save you embarrassment and frustration later.

-sammy sosa

 

[Flying Illini]

What about Microsoft Flight Sim?? You mean that can't count towards total time?! Sonofa... <erasing sound>

 

[MarineGrunt]

Boo hoo....

This is a tired topic. Stop trying to cheat things and just follow the rules. It will save you embarrassment and frustration later.

-sammy sosa

I never said I wanted to log the time. The reason I asked was to solve a debate between myself and another instructor. I didn't think you could and even if it was a grey area, I still wouldn't. But thanks anyway for the assumption.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

look in your logbook, I bet it has a column labeled "Simulator"
Thats the only place to put Simulator time.

Dont think too much about it...

you and that other instructor should go out and drink a few beers and scam on chiks and stop talking about airplanes.

 

[Flying Illini]

you and that other instructor should go out and drink a few beers and scam on chiks and stop talking about airplanes.

Amen!

 

[capt_zman]

Just got back from Simuflite and I asked this exact question to 5 different instructors. ALL of them log their simulator time, and that includes both the left and right seats, as well as the instructor seat.

How this is I don't know, but ALL of them said they do and that is was perfectly legal.

Anyone from Simuflite want to comment?

 

[Caveman]

I used to count sim time under total time and in the sim/FTD column. I never had a problem with the Feds or any interviewers. I was offered 4 different jobs with sim time counted in the total time column. Two 121, 1 Lear position, and 1 CFI job. I did not count any sim/FTD time as ME, SE or anything else, just total time. I've since deleted it from the total time column because it was only about 100 hours or so and now it doesn't really matter. I don't believe that it's a problem unless you try to count it as flight time. It is a part of your TOTAL flying experience but it's not flight time.

The one that gets me is I have over 400 hours sitting as a CFII in a Frasca two place sim giving dual instrument instruction. That's 400 plus hours on the gauges that as far as I can tell is unloggable. I learned a lot and developed a decent scan so I guess it was valuable time but I don't have any way to document it.

 

[Smiliner]

Caveman,

I know that FTD time can't count towards any SEL or MEL time. But as a CFII, can't you count it as dual given (if nothing else)?

Thanks

 

[capt_zman]

Just got back from Simuflite and I asked this exact question to 5 different instructors. ALL of them log their simulator time, and that includes both the left and right seats, as well as the instructor seat.

How this is I don't know, but ALL of them said they do and that is was perfectly legal.

Anyone from Simuflite want to comment?

 

[EngineOut]

Bottom line I suppose is this:

The student should do whatever they feel comfortable with. Everyone on this board has their own reasons for doing what they do with the time. In some situations, not only is logging FTD/SIM time as Total Time reasonable, it is necessary to meet experience requirements for a certificate or rating.

I have noticed from comments in threads like these that the overwhelming majority of people that suggest "don't" or "NO" are higher time. One could assume that they view those few hours in an FTD or SIM as unimportant. Most people who ask this question, however, are attempting to account for each hour to either reduce training costs or qualify for employment.

I think 14 CFR Part 61 makes it very clear that SIM/FTD time is loggable as Total Time.

 

[de727ups]

From the FAR part 61 FAQ's

QUESTION: Don't have a specific example, but can you give me the low down on how flight simulator and flight training device time can be logged (flight time, pic, sic, night, x-c, etc.) in a persons log book.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(b)(1)(iv), (b)(3)(iii), (g)(4), and (h)(1) and §61.51(a)(1) and (2); Keep in mind that logging time is only required for the purposes stated in §61.51(a)(1) and (2), i.e., experience used to meet the requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review and meeting the recent flight experience requirements. I also direct you to the definition of “flight training” as per §61.1(b)(6) which states: “Flight training means that training, other than ground training, received from an authorized instructor in flight in an aircraft.” (Emphasis added). Furthermore, §61.51(h)(1) addresses logging of training time as “A person may log training time when that person receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.” However, time in a flight simulator or flight training device CANNOT be logged as “flight time” or as “PIC time” or as “SIC time” or as “night time” or as “daytime” or as “cross-country time” or as time in an “aircraft category, class, or type.” Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time. And in most logbooks, the person has to write in the notation “FS/FTD” as a heading on one of the extra columns. And in some logbooks they do have a column noted as “Synthetic Trainer.” The FARs specifically permit time in a flight simulator or flight training device can be credited in lieu of the required flight time towards meeting the total aeronautical experience or recency of experience. [See §61.57(c)(1) and (d)(1)(ii), §61.58(e), §61.65(e), §61.109(i), §61.129(i), §61.157(i), §61.187(c)(2), etc.] However, this is NOT flight time and CANNOT be logged as flight time. For example, an ATP applicant with 1,475 hours total time as a pilot in aircraft that includes at least 500 hours cross-country and 100 hours night, but only 50 hours instrument flight time would meet minimum aeronautical experience using 25 hours instrument training in a flight simulator or flight training device (FTD) in accordance with §61.156(a)(3)(iii). Though the 25 hours in the sim/FTD can not logged as flight time, it may be used in lieu of flight time for the minimum aeronautical experience requirement of 1,500 hours total time. But, this is only because it is allowed under §61.156(a)(3)(iii). Now, the way it would be interpreted and should be logged on the FAA Form 8710-1 application is to list the time in the “Instruction Received” and “Instrument” columns and in the line for “Training Device” or “Simulator” in the appropriate boxes. When the time is computed to insure the applicant meets the appropriate aeronautical experience requirements for the airman certificate and rating sought, the time listed in the “Instruction Received” column and “Training Device” or “Simulator” boxes, as appropriate, would be accepted in lieu of the required flight time experience required to the limit allowed, as in the example above.

 

[Smiliner]

UGH!!!

GEEEEZZZ...

Now I am questioning my own logbook. I have been logging my student's time in the FTD as "dual given" in my logbook. But wouldn't it stand to reason that if the student can log it as "dual received", I can log it as "dual given"?

Believe me, I am in NO way trying to pad my logbook. I am just trying to get a straight answer should I ever need to apply at another flight school for a job.

 

[de727ups]

The real question is...

In everyone's logbook where is says "total duration of flight" in the far right column. Is that assumed to be what we are calling "total time", or is it total flight time? I've always assumed it to be "total flight time" and so never put FTD time there. I only log FTD time in the flight sim/ground trainer column and in the dual received column.

On an airline application, does it say "total time" or "total flight time"? I think the airline is assuming you are giving total flight time when you fill out the total time column.

 

[Saabslime]

Way back when...I logged sim time towards total time, about 40 hours or so. Never had anyone question it during interviews, additional ratings, etc.. Since then, I probably have over 100 hours in level D sims and haven't logged a minute of it. Never really saw a need to. Do whatever your little heart tells you to do. You could ask 50 different FSDO's this question and half will say you can......half will say you can't. If you have a good reason such as qualifying for a rating, position or such, go ahead and log it.

 

[de727ups]

Smiliner

If your problem is with this statement:

Time in a flight simulator or flight training device can only be logged in the columns noted as “Flight Simulator or Flight Training Device” time and “Dual Received” time.

Then I'd say it's safe to draw the conclusion that if it's okay for the time to go in the students "Dual Received" column....then it's okay for you to log it as "Dual given". Dude....I think your fine, don't worry about it....

I don't think you should log it as total time, whatever that is, and certainly not as total flight time, which would be illegal.

 

[Smiliner]

de727ups

De727ups,

Thanks!!! I appreciate the help. The only heading I log FTD time under is dual given. Nothing else.

Thanks again.

 

[vclean]

This subject surfaces its head every few months or so. I don't log sim at all as it is not flight time (level C, D, fixed base sim, ftd, etc).

Bottom line, log what ever you want, just be able to explain/defend the time to an interviewer.

 

[dmspilot00]

de727ups: "I don't think you should log it as total time, whatever that is"

"Whatever that is" is right. What is total time? Total time doing what, watching TV? Eating donuts?

Most logbooks have the word "flight" in the grand total column, so that should be total flight time and shouldn't include sim/FTD.

The FARs distinguish between flight time and pilot time. The definition of flight time is obvious and is in FAR 1.1. It must be in an aircraft. Pilot time, in FAR 61.1, is the time during which you serve as a required pilot flight crewmember, receive training from an instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or FTD, or give training as an instructor in an aicraft, FS, or FTD.

In my logbook (ASA), the dual received and PIC headings are under "Type of Piloting Time." Since piloting time can include sim/FTD, I would say its OK to log sim/FTD as dual received or given. In order to log PIC, it has to be in an aircraft, though.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Re: UGH!!!

Now I am questioning my own logbook. I have been logging my student's time in the FTD as "dual given" in my logbook. But wouldn't it stand to reason that if the student can log it as "dual received", I can log it as "dual given"?

The difference is that your student can include it in certain totals for certain purposes. What are you counting it for?

From the CFI standpoint, dual given in a sim/FTD is essentially ground instruction time.

Unless I've missed something, there's nothing in the FAR that requires =any= logging of Dual Given anyway.

For a CFI, logging "training given" for a sim/FTD might have value for tracking purposes. For example, if you're looking for a job with a 141 or 142 operation, they might be interested in this.

The "dual given" column isn't regulatory. So what you put in it is entirely your business. So long as you don't put the time in some other column and can separate it so that when asked how much training you've given, you can say X hours in singles, Y hours in twins, and Z hours in sims.

 

[Hose A. Jiminez]

you and that other instructor should go out and drink a few beers and scam on chiks and stop talking about airplanes.

Excellent advice for about 90% of the JackBones that blither on about usless nonsense on this board.

 

[midlifeflyer]

For those who didn't notice that there's a parallel thread on this issue. the answer to the Teach in flight sim = total time issue is here:

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=169673#post169673

 

[El Duderino]

Only if it is MS Flight Sim, "PROFESSIONAL EDITION"
Then you have to devide the amount of time you played, I mean trained by 4. This is the time that is allowed to be logged. 91.112(a)-bbte. You should read the regs more dude.
dude