Can ATC Instruct, "Cross IAF, AOB on ILS" ?

[westwind driver]

From FAA Order 7110.65, Chapter 5, Section 9. (Radar Arrivals) Subsection 1, part b.
(http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/ATC.pdf)

"...5-9-1. VECTORS TO FINAL APPROACH COURSE

Except as provided in para 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual
Approach, vector arriving aircraft to intercept the
final approach course:...

b. For a precision approach, at an altitude not
above the glideslope/glidepath or below the
minimum glideslope intercept altitude specified on
the approach procedure chart..."

Perhaps I misread this.

 

[AvroGuy]

Here is the situation,

Final is busy, and due to merging of the streams, has to have aircraft join the LOC, then Descend maintain 5k before clearing for the approach.

Several times I have heard the instruction given, "10 miles from ABC (FAF), Cross XYZ (IAF) At or Above 5000, cleared ILS Runway XX Approach."

I thought ATC couldn't clear you for an ILS above the glideslope?

Someone please clarify this for me. I can't find anything in the 7110.65 as far as phraseology goes.

this is extreamly common in ORD. ATC has started issueing such clearences. Such as 04R, they will clear you to 8000 then say maintain 8000 till DEGAN cleared ILS 04R. Now at 8000 at DEGAN puts you above the glide slope. Now you have to dive for the glide slope. Company sends out atleast 1 email a month reminding pilots to comply with the instruction. If you fly the glide slope, it puts you 200-300 below 8000 at DEGAN

IAP plate http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00166IL4R.PDF

 

[westwind driver]

Answer from A80 controller:

In the case of A80 (ATL), and when running Simultaneous Triple ILS approachs (w/PRM) the final controller has to ensure 3 miles or 1000 feet of separation between aircraft on adjacent final approach courses until BOTH are established on the LOC. This is why north final joins to 26R at 5k, center final joins to 27L at 7k or sometimes 6k, and south final joins to 28 at 4k. You hear the same thing here, "Maintain 5000 till FREAL..." The altitudes may vary at times. Due to this restriction, during IMC and heavy arrival demand, the final may wind up being 20-25 miles, as aircraft on each final approach course are vectored to intercept the LOC at around 20-25 miles to ensure the 1000' separation during the turn on to the LOC.

I thought this to very interesting.

 

[b707guy]

If you fly the glide slope, it puts you 200-300 below 8000 at DEGANhttp://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0910/00166IL4R.PDF

That used to be the case with some of the R25L/R arrivals at LAX. If you crossed CIVET on the glide slope and followed the GS all the way down, you would put yourself a few hundred feet below the minimum altitude for one or two of the many fixes on the way down. I believe that is no longer the case with any of the arrival/approach profiles there anymore. I don't know how closely the controllers watch your descent, nor do I know anyone who was violated or even called out on it, but I certainly could see a checkride bust from inside if you did that. Pretty frustrating being set up like that.

 

[vtwo]

That used to be the case with some of the R25L/R arrivals at LAX. If you crossed CIVET on the glide slope and followed the GS all the way down, you would put yourself a few hundred feet below the minimum altitude for one or two of the many fixes on the way down. I believe that is no longer the case with any of the arrival/approach profiles there anymore. I don't know how closely the controllers watch your descent, nor do I know anyone who was violated or even called out on it, but I certainly could see a checkride bust from inside if you did that. Pretty frustrating being set up like that.

Lnav Vnav baby till the FAF. That is what will keep you out of trouble if you can spin, push, twist, pull fast enough.

 

[tomgoodman]

Close, but not reliable

That used to be the case with some of the R25L/R arrivals at LAX. If you crossed CIVET on the glide slope and followed the GS all the way down, you would put yourself a few hundred feet below the minimum altitude for one or two of the many fixes on the way down.

Yes, that was a well-known "gotcha" approach, because sometimes it looked like the GS was going to comply with a stepdown restriction --- and at the last minute you saw that it was going to be too low. We were told that while the localizer was indeed certified for guidance a long way out, the glide slope was not.