Can ATC Instruct, "Cross IAF, AOB on ILS" ?

[westwind driver]

Here is the situation,

Final is busy, and due to merging of the streams, has to have aircraft join the LOC, then Descend maintain 5k before clearing for the approach.

Several times I have heard the instruction given, "10 miles from ABC (FAF), Cross XYZ (IAF) At or Above 5000, cleared ILS Runway XX Approach."

I thought ATC couldn't clear you for an ILS above the glideslope?

Someone please clarify this for me. I can't find anything in the 7110.65 as far as phraseology goes.

 

[mynameisjim]

They can do it because you don't have to join the glideslope at that point. You could dive to the next altitude and catch the GS from there.

 

[avbug]

I thought ATC couldn't clear you for an ILS above the glideslope?

You may be getting confused with being vectored, and being cleared.

Of course one can be cleared for an approach when one is above the published GSIA. One may need to fly an arc or course reversal as part of the procedure, always above the GSIA, and one is still cleared for the procedure at that point.

 

[westwind driver]

You may be getting confused with being vectored, and being cleared.

Of course one can be cleared for an approach when one is above the published GSIA. One may need to fly an arc or course reversal as part of the procedure, always above the GSIA, and one is still cleared for the procedure at that point.

Actually this is being vectored onto the localiser. This happens to us shooting ILS PRM at a large domestic airport.

 

[avbug]

Correct....you're being vectored, but may not be on the approach yet when you receive your clearance. Your clearance becomes effective when you're on the approach. This is very common. It's very rare that I ever hear a controller wait until I'm actually on the approach to clear me for the approach.

The controller issues the clearance before you do something. You're not already at FL310 when you're cleared to climb and maintain FL310. You're not actually on the approach when the controller says "Turn left heading 310, 3 miles from SNOWL, Cleared the ILS 30C." You haven't actually landed when you're told "cleared to land." It should come as no surprise then that you're issued a clearance while being vectored.

 

[b707guy]

It's very rare that I ever hear a controller wait until I'm actually on the approach to clear me for the approach.

It happens quite frequently to receive a clearance to "fly such and such heading, intercept the localizer" without receiving approach clearance, and eventually receive the actual approach clearance well after established on the localizer, many times from a higher altitude. Sometimes, I would imagine, the controller has either forgotten to issue the clearance, or some other event precluded it's issuance. Either way, if I'm getting anywhere near the FAF or GS, I'll always ask in those cases to confirm approach clearance.

Not sure I understand westwind's situation correctly: the IAF altitude is frequently higher than the FAF/GS intercept altitude. You can be instructed to stay at, say, 5000', but you have to be cleared for the approach to descend below 5000' in this case, and, if cleared the approach, you don't have to wait until the published fix (a bit of a misnomer for a pure ILS without a marker or crossing radial to locate the "fix") to follow the glide slope.

You may be thinking of non-precision approaches regarding the requirement to be at FAF altitude, whether it's through controller clearance for by a cleared approach profile. For ILS, though, (and I'm sure there are a few exceptions out there...), you can generally be vectored to intercept the glide slope from any altitude at or above either the published intercept and then descend via the glide slope, assuming you've gotten the approach clearance.

 

[Goffer]

"Turn left heading 310, 3 miles from SNOWL, Cleared the ILS 30C."

Have you been flying around KIWA lately? I just got my commercial multi add-on this week in the area.

 

[Whydoitry]

I

All I want to know is where are u flying a 707 and how can I? Really I'm serious. I have about 8000 hrs, and love 707s.

 

[Toobdrvr]

"Cleared for the approach" is an authorization to fly the routes and altitudes as published. It can be issued any time the aircraft is in a position to fly the approach as published (ie on an airway which leads to an IAF). Glideslope has nothing to do with it. You may be confused with the policy that ATC is not supposed to make you intercept the GS from above. Sorry I can't provide the chapter and verse. Hope this helps.

 

[b707guy]

All I want to know is where are u flying a 707 and how can I? Really I'm serious. I have about 8000 hrs, and love 707s.

Well, I wish I could help you, since if I could, it'd mean I was still flying them myself. Haven't had the pleasure since 1996. And I do miss them!