Can anyone introduce me to Corp. Flying?

[Archer]

I was just wondering what is needed to become a corporate pilot.

I read in some threads that Corporate flying is not just Citation or Lear Jet flying, but can also be a Baron 58 flying...does it go all the way to single engine/HP airplanes (I'm sure businessmen wouldn't like to flyin a 150 at 80 miles an hour)

If someone could clarifly the difference between Part 91, 121 and 135...and tell me if there are any other "Parts"

To my understanding, 121 is scheduled "airline" flying. As in Regionals and Majors. 135 is air taxi and charter (scheduled I'm guessing?) as compared to 91 which is not scheduled...just flight on request type of thing...?

Plus, what is the deal with single pilot flying, second in command, co-pilot, PIC, First Officer, Captain and all these terms. I really don't know the difference sometimes...

It seems Captain/FO combination is as high as you can go, means more responsability and the fact that the airplanes requires multi-crew operation...as in 2 pilots at least?

And is Second in command the same as FO?

And is size of the airplane the determining factor on weather you need one or two pilots?

LIke, you can be PIC, sp of a B200, but you can't ever be that for a Citation X or Falcon900X or whatever?


Lastaly, what ratings are required (i.e. is ATP required?) and what are the usual number of hour minimums...?

Can one get like a low time Commercial job instead of being a CFI to make up multi hours or whatever?

thanx

Archer

 

[cvsfly]

Wow you got a lot of questions and a long way to go. No exposure to aviation before? Best bet is to start reading books of interest - say from a Sporty's catalog. Pick a title and go from there. Sounds like pure regulation/FAR reading isn't going to get you there and there isn't enough room here to answer all of your questions.

 

[Flywrite]

Phew...thats a lot of info, but I'll see what I can do here...

1. Corporate can be in any kind of airplane. When I was instructing I flew "corporate" in a new Bonanza, and had a buddy doing the same thing in a Cessna Cardinal.

2.Part 91: Relatively relaxed part covering non-air carrier and non-military operations. Corporate falls into Pt91, as does flight instruction, for-hire sightseeing trips inside a 25nm radius of the home airport, and a renting a 172 for a trip to the beach (assuming you fly it yourself, or someone else does for free)

Part 121: Scheduled air carrier ops. The majors and regionals are Pt121, as are charters in 737s 727s, etc.

Part 135 is broadly similar to 121, but slightly less structured and restrictive. It covers on-demand/charter/air taxi operators. the charter King Air or Citation at your local field operates under Pt135 (hopefully).

3. The pilots. The number of pilots required depends upon the airplance's type certificate and/or type of operation. If you look in a C172 Manual it shows the minimum crew as one pilot. If you look in a Lear/Gulfstream/737/Jetstream/CRJ, etc manual it shows two pilots. Some turbine engine aircraft like King Airs and some Citations can be flown single pilot, except under Pt135, which requires two pilots for IFR operations.
To log SIC (second in command) time the aircraft or operation must require two pilots.
PIC is Pilot in Command and applies to anyone flying Single Pilot, whether in a 172 or Citation, or anyone who is acting as Captain in a two person crew.
Captain generally is the same as PIC. SIC, FO, and co-pilot are generally interchangeable terms, though airline right seaters are usually called FOs and corporate ones are often called co-pilots.
You can go from being a PIC on a B200 one flight to PIC on a Citation X, Falcon 900x, C172, or Concorde the next flight, provided you are certified for that aircraft and have the required training for the type operation. This practice is uncommon at better operators, and prohibited by almost all union contracts at airlines.

4. Ratings. You must hold an ATP plus associated Type Rating (if required-ariplanes over 12,500lbs of turbojet) to act as PIC in 121 ops, or under 135 in a Jet or aircraft with 10+ passenger seats. To be PIC in a 135 King Air (turboprop, less than 10 seats) requires commercial, instrument, multi-engine certification, and 1200 hours (500xc, 100 night, 75 instrument) VFR 135 requires 500 hours and a commercial certificate with appropriate category/class ratings. To be SIC in any of these operations requires a commercial certificate with appropriate ratings, no hour minimum. Bear in mind that these are all FAA mins and that insurance minimums are usually much higher, particularly for PIC.
A corporate Captain is under Pt 91 and only legally requires a Commercial certificate with category/class ratings, and a type rating if required. A 250 hour commercial pilot with multi-engine rating can fly as Captain in a Citation if he/she has the type rating, though insurance would be a big problem.
An individual who owns a Citation, or any other jet/large aircraft can fly it with a Private Certificate and the appropriate category/class/type rating.

Getting a coporate job insted of instructing to build time is possible, but its hard. Getting the CFI is a better wayto prepare for a career in a two-person airplane. Plus as a CFI you learn and improve your skills on every flight. Much better than vegging away in a Seneca or Bonanza.


Hope this info helps.

 

[SpiderMan]

Yes.

Corporate flying this is Archer. Archer this is Corporate flying.

 

[English]

Just a correction to flywrite's post...

Citationjets can be flown single pilot under 135 regulations, depending on the FSDO. Our ops specs allow us to as long as we have an operative autopilot (autopilot in lieu of second in command).

 

[Archer]

cvsfly, I'm a student pilot and have been exposed to aviation as much as the typical student pilot. I could books about this stuff, but I don't have the time right now, and this board is made to share aviation information, which is why I'm using it.

There is room in here, in fact Flywrite has answered basically every single question I asked in my opening post.

I'm just trying to getting a head start, and figuring out what it takes to become a professional pilot (corporate, air-taxi/charter mainly)

flywrite, sometimes they have minimum hour requirements for some HP pistons, where they will want for example X hours total, Y hours multi, Z hours complex/hp and B hours type

the hours of type, you don't need a type rating right? Type in this case just means that "type" of airplane? as in, a Seneca "type" or Arrow "type" or King Air B200 type? as in that particular model of airplane?

thanx for your post btw, it was very informative...

Archer

 

[Rick1128]

Archer,

To log flight time in an aircraft you only need to be required and qualified. You don't need a type rating except when you are acting as PIC in an aircraft that requires a type rating.

For insurance requirements, most insurance companies want time in type and they may require a break down of the flight time.

As for the CFI, there are other types of flying that do not require a CFI. Things like forest fire patrol, pipeline patrol, traffic reporting, banner towing, skydivers, scenic tours, etc. If you hit the right operator or the right year you could build up a reasonable amount of time.

 

[banned username 2]

Archer...

Think of it like this...

Airline Flying = City bus driving - generally fly the same routes at the same times carrying lots of people you don't know.

Charter Flying = Taxi driving - generally flying to anywhere, anytime people who you may or may not know, in relatively older equipment. Typically the pay isn't great and the equipment isn't state-of-the-art. The goal is to make money, and having a lot of extra fancy equipment on board doesn't help the bottom line... Typically Charter operators have fairly low hiring minimums. (1500 hours or so)

Corporate Flying = Limosine Driving - generally flying people you know to pre-scheduled destinations but can be called upon for shorter notice trips. Typically the pay is much greater than Charter and the equipment is generally much newer and better equipped. Typically the good Corporate jobs have much higher hiring minimums than Charter operators. (Typically 3000+ hours)

These are very GENERAL descriptions and things can vary greatly from company to company.... Typically there aren't any good Corporate jobs that fly piston equipment... Generally to make any reasonable money you need to fly Turbine equipment, and to narrow it further, Jet equipment...

My guess is the guy who was flying "Corporate" in a Bonanza was flying some guys airplane who happens to own a small company... and uses the airplane as a business write-off... not "Corporate" in the traditional sense of the word... I know our executives can't get on anything unless it has 2 engines and they are both turbine powered (and yes this includes helicopters, they must be twins)....

Hope this helps...

 

[Archer]

Are the flight hour requirements really that high?

3000 for corporate and 1500 for charter...so what, 5000 for Regionals and 8000 for Majors?

It seems so tedious...I would want to get a job at say 800 hours or 1000 max. I understand experience is important for safety of passengers, but isn't this a little too much abuse of the profession "pilot"?

So you can't fly anything with say 300 or so hours? Say a Seneca?

I think that's what I would love to do, rather than teach as a CFI, get some multi in a Seneca or Baron or any light twin...that will give me precious multi time and make it fun...

that's if I ever decide to go pro in the aviation career...

Archer

 

[Flywrite]

FalconCapt, The "Corporate" job in the Bonanza was just as you described. Still, it was a nice occasional break from touch & gos for an 800 hour CFI.

Archer, Sorry to burst your bubble, but if instructing sounds tedious to you when you have twenty-something hours I doubt you will be going "pro". Stick to flying on the weekends for fun.

The hour requirements stated above are usually driven by two things-insurance and the job market. Right now a buzillion hours and every type rating in the book wont get you a job at Delta, United, American, etc. Two years ago people were getting these jobs with less than 3000 hours. The same kind of thing goes across the board. If there are few pilots looking for jobs you may find a corporate dream job with 1500 hours or get on with a top of the line regional with under 1,000. When the market is flooded with very experienced pilots the minimums go up, and even then competition is tight.

I'm sorry if the thought of having to build experience beyond 800 or so hours gets you down, or if you cringe at the thought of having to be a CFI, but that is how this profession works.
If you do choose to pursue aviation as a profession, PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that once you have a few hundered hours and a commercial certificate you are ready for anything.
The best pilots are the ones who know they are not the best yet, no matter how fat the logbook is.

Good Luck

 

[banned username 2]

Archer... first of all... the progression doesn't typically go CFI, Charter, Corporate, Regional, Major...

Typically after being a CFI you decide which way you are leaning...

Then you decide if the Majors are your ultimate goal, you try to start at the Regionals...

If Corporate is your ultimate goal you start at Charter...

My company (a very large Fortune 100 Corporation) has hiring minimums right at 5,000 hours which must include at least 2,500 multi engine, 1,500 turbine of which 1,000 is jet... Our starting pay is right at $80,000 per year

The Charter company I used to fly for had minimums around 1,500-2,000 hours with 500+ multi engine... Starting pay was around $30,000-$35,000 per year for a First Officer (Co-Pilot)

Most Regional airlines now have a minimums of somewhere around 1,200-1,500 hours with 300-500 multi engine. Remember these are MINIMUMS, just because you meet the minimums in no way guarantees you will get hired... There are always guys with more competitive times than you. Competitive minimums are probably more around 2,500 with 1,000 multi engine. I think the day of the 600-800 hour new hire are long gone... Starting pay at the regionals is somewhere around $20,000 per year

Most Major airlines have minimums around 4,000-5,000 hours with usually 2,000+ multi and 1,000 turbine.... Starting pay (first year) is generally $35,000-$45,000 depending on company... Now keep in mind that the big majors ALL have MANY pilots on Furlough ie. Laid-off. (Delta has about 1,000 and is heading for 1,400, UAL has about 1,000 and American is close to 1,000) and it will probably be many years until they are recalled... this stagnation will slow hiring throughout the industry... and even when recalls start, it will take a couple years to complete the recalls and get everyone retrained.... and then they will need more demand before they start hiring additional pilots... UAL, Delta and AA are all talking about the possiblity of Bankruptcy... if this happens unfortunately you will see even more highly qualified pilots out on the street... Time are not good right now...

In short the days of getting 600 hours and getting a job with the regionals are LONG gone... That era that you are so familiar with (1996-2000) was the exception and not the rule... That type of hiring will probably never return to the industry... So if you are getting into the industry, you'd better be prepared for a much slower progression than you may have seen in the past... Many pilots on this board Flight Instructed until they had 2,500-3,000+ hours... flew at the Regionals until they had 6,000-7,000+ hours before ever getting to the Majors... and now at the majors, they are unemployed... There are also A LOT of pilots now making careers at the Regionals.... Some by their own choosing, some not...

When I would help people decide on if they should take a particular job or not, I always asked then "Would you be happy staying there for 10 years?" and they would say "well I only plan to stay 2 years to build experience" Well my point was, no one can predict the future... and you never know what might happen to stop everything in its tracks (ie. September 11, Bad Economy, etc...) You always have to try to plan ahead for the unknown...

This isn't an easy industry... it may look like cake and glamour from the outside, it is anything but... Just ask the guys who have worked their a$$es of for many years as a CFI and Regional pilot only to reach their goal at a Major and now find themselves in the unemployment line... It just isn't fair.... but then again, life isn't fair...

If I were you, I would plan the following progression, if it happens faster, great... if not at least you knew in advance...

If your goal is Corporate:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours minimum)
Fly Charter for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 3,500+ hours min.)
Then you will be marketable for a decent Corporate job....

If your goal is the Majors:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours)
Fly at the Regionals for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 4,000-5,000 hours min)
And hopefully by that time (7-8 years Minimum) the Majors will starting to be hiring with some regularity that will cause some movement in the industry... if not... You will see MANY pilots making careers at the Regionals...

I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but just want you to have more realistic expectations....

I hope this helps...

Good Luck!

Falcon Capt.

 

[banned username 2]

FalconCapt, The "Corporate" job in the Bonanza was just as you described. Still, it was a nice occasional break from touch & gos for an 800 hour CFI.

Archer, Sorry to burst your bubble, but if instructing sounds tedious to you when you have twenty-something hours I doubt you will be going "pro". Stick to flying on the weekends for fun.

The hour requirements stated above are usually driven by two things-insurance and the job market. Right now a buzillion hours and every type rating in the book wont get you a job at Delta, United, American, etc. Two years ago people were getting these jobs with less than 3000 hours. The same kind of thing goes across the board. If there are few pilots looking for jobs you may find a corporate dream job with 1500 hours or get on with a top of the line regional with under 1,000. When the market is flooded with very experienced pilots the minimums go up, and even then competition is tight.

I'm sorry if the thought of having to build experience beyond 800 or so hours gets you down, or if you cringe at the thought of having to be a CFI, but that is how this profession works.
If you do choose to pursue aviation as a profession, PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that once you have a few hundered hours and a commercial certificate you are ready for anything.
The best pilots are the ones who know they are not the best yet, no matter how fat the logbook is.

Good Luck

FlyWrite... Excellent post, and I couldn't agree more....

I agree, if Archer is already "dreading" the steps to an Aviation Career the you are dead on saying he might be happier in another field and fly for fun on the weekends...

Archer... again I don't mean to discourage... but just because you love to go up and fly doesn't mean you'll love an Aviation Career... Flying around in your Archer for fun is TOTALLY different than flying the line at an airline or flying Corporate...

Good Luck!

 

[airbaker]

Falcon Capt,

You couldn't have laid it out more succinctly; I wholeheartedly agreed with your assessment of the industry at present. I think the "irrational exuberance" of the tech-boom has manifested in the aspirations of some newcomers.
*Archer, this isn't meant to be a put-down to you. But it would be unfair to you, or anyone else new to the industry, to try to paint it with a different brush.

Things will get better... it's just a question of time.

Good Luck to all of us!

 

[TAG2]

Paying your dues

Archer,

It is called "paying your dues", like it or not, that is the way it is. That is what 99% of us have had to do. Instructing is just the start of it besides the tremendous benefits you would recieve while doing it. You need to get some good PIC time. By putting you into the right seat of anything at 800 hours will not be doing you any favors. You will most likely sit there for longer than you care to think and become discouraged.

If this is what you really want to do for a living, you will most likely have to take the same path that most of us had to. That is just the way it is.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Archer]

I see your points. And the more I read about this, the more I start to understand how things work in professional aviation.

I just don't really see myself as a CFI. I would rather not be a CFI at all, and go the "unconventional" way, be it harder or not, than be a bad CFI, waste student's money and risk theirs and others' lives.

I have no experience at all (30 hours, many of the people on this board don't even bother counting below 100 hour increments), yet, from logic, and what I experience during my flight lessons, I cad deduce that being a CFI is good for a while, and it helps in many ways to improve a pilot, especially in the basics, but after a while, I think it become redundant, and the pilot stops advancing in many ways.

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

So all I'm saying is, to me, a CFI is a master pilot, an almost perfect pilot. That's how a CFI should be in my eyes at least. And it takes a lot of character, and I think not everyone is born to be a CFI. And it saddens me that going through the "CFI job" is an "hour-building obligation" for regional/major/corporate pilots...because I doubt all of these people who have CFIs like being CFIs...they probably can't wait to get out of there and go fly the "real job" and thus do a bad job instructing...

I don't know yet if I could ever be a CFI, a real one that is. I could probably get the Certificate...but that doesn't mean much. It's just a piece of paper...the CFI has to "feel" like being a CFI, be enthusiastic.

I think sightseeing tours of some kind would be better for me, though hopefully they won't be restricted to 25nm...

or any type of low time charter job...just to get started, be happy and build those hours for something bigger and greater...

Archer

 

[Flywrite]

Archer, I'm a big advocate of instructing. It builds skills beyond simple stick & rudder flying which will be invaluable the first time you find yourself in a simulator with another pilot, who you MUST work with to succeed. However, having said this, I have no time whatosever for CFIs who care about nothing more than filling logbook pages. I enjoyed doing it, but I understand that it isnt for everyone. If you dont think it fits your personality, then you have my admiration for choosing NOT to do it. It is definately something that should be done well or not at all (as are all jobs in our field).

If you choose to be a professional pilot without instructing try to get as much time as you can flying with another pilot. Perhaps along the way pick up a book or two on crew operations and try to include some of the basic procedures in your flying.

As for getting a "low time charter job", dont count on it. You will more than likely spend your first thousand hours flying banners around the same patch of sky or flying circles around traffic accidents. You may get lucky and find yourself in a Seneca at 500 hours or a King Air at 1000, but if you do you will be the exception, rather than the rule.

Whichever route you take, it will be tough-it is for everyone. Each pilot in the profession pays his or her dues in some way or another, be it through hours of touch and gos, towing banners, hauling checks, patroling the skies of Iraq, or flying skydivers (this may be an option for you, though the jobs are no where near as numerous as instructor positions). It's just the nature of the business. You must understand this before you embark on the professional pilot path. Your current plan of getting a low time charter job is just not realistic enough to sustain you through the frustration and hardship that will be a frequent visitor if you pursue this careeer path.

Just so I dont sound too discouraging, remember that flying is not like any other job. I mean how many accountants or managers do you think spend hours on accounting or managing message boards? It's a great way to make a living once you get a decent job, and even before then it can be immensely rewarding.

Good Luck!

 

[cvsfly]

And who said you can't be a good CFI just because you think you would not enjoy it? I don't admire those who CFI and watch the hour meter turn. But why not accept that it is an honorable way to build time and at the same time try to be the best CFI possible? It is a shame that the majority of the CFI industry has become some rite of passage and a time-building stepping stone. In a perfect socialistic world, your teachers would be 10,000 hour B-747 experienced captains who are paid $200,000 salaries and the young new and eager pilots would be flying the automated well equipped airliners getting paid $20,000/yr. Then again, nah.

 

[banned username 2]

I just don't really see myself as a CFI. I would rather not be a CFI at all, and go the "unconventional" way, be it harder or not, than be a bad CFI, waste student's money and risk theirs and others' lives.

I have no experience at all (30 hours, many of the people on this board don't even bother counting below 100 hour increments), yet, from logic, and what I experience during my flight lessons, I cad deduce that being a CFI is good for a while, and it helps in many ways to improve a pilot, especially in the basics, but after a while, I think it become redundant, and the pilot stops advancing in many ways.

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

I learned more about flying BEING a Flight Instructor than I did during my private, Instrument, Multi-engine, Commercial and CFI, CFI-I and CFI-ME training combined... Being a CFI isn't to build hours, it is to build experience... and very valuable experience at that...

Do you really think flying right seat in a King Air or a Citation at 600 hours is going to teach you anything? It will teach you how to operate the Gear handle and the radios... You will not be PIC and thus will not be able to learn from your own mistakes (decisions)... and learning from your mistakes (without killing yourself) is what experience is... it isn't some Captain telling you "You'd better not do that", it is doing it and saying "HOLY $HIT, what the he!l did I do THAT for?!?!?!". I can tell you not to cross-control your stalls until I am blue in the face, but all I have to do is let you do it once and have the airplane snap inverted and I guarantee you'll never do it again!

Yeah, yeah... everyone wants to be a 747 Captain right after they get their ratings... well it just doesn't work that way... never has and never will... Life is tough and you gotta pay your dues... and there are a lot of dues to pay... Typically I tell new people in the industry plan to work about 7 years before you get into a decent job (making good money, on good equipment with a decent schedule) anything short of that plan to work your a$$ off and not make squat... But you know, Ramen noodles aren't that bad.... and after a while you can even afford some chicken to put in the noodles.... The first 5-7 years, the money stinks, the hours stink, the equipment sticks and the money stinks (did I mention the money stinks?)...

Experience is king... flying straight and level day VFR will build your hours but what does it do for you? Not a heck of a lot... but going out everyday doing steep turns, stalls, MCA, emergencies, ground reference maneuvers and such will make you very sharp... even though your hands aren't on the controls...

I agree... in the "perfect world" the CFI's would be the "Master Pilots", the guys who have 30+ years experience, etc... It would be the final job you strive for... But the world isn't perfect and neither is this industry... As you probably have seen, flying isn't that hard... but it takes a very disciplined person to make a career out of it...

Keep your expectations realistic... and in focus... and if you are already "getting bored" of the trusty Cessna 172... then you are probably heading in the wrong direction (Career wise)... This coming from someone with over 1,600 hours of C-172 time... not to mention nearly 1,700 hours of Dual Given...

Pay your dues and get as much "good" experience as possible... It will pay you back in spades later... and you will be a much better pilot for it... Trust me, I've been there, done that... You have a crap load to learn yet.... and even after you have your CFI you will merely be at the "Infancy" of your Aviation Career.... At that point you know enough to get by, but there is a whole world left to learn... and you should never stop learning... everyday I learn something new when flying, some days it's something big, other days its tiny... but the day you stop learning is the day you should stop flying...

Good Luck!

 

[Archer]

I don't think I will ever get tired of single engine 4 seater piston airplanes. I think they are more fun (IMHO) than a 777 or 747 could ever be.

If someone told me they would give me for free an Archer or a 777, and that I would have to choose one, and that I wouldn't be able to re-sell it, I would definitely, without question, go with the Archer.

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I have flown as a passenger in 200+ airline flights, 20+ of them Transatlantics. And I get bored as you wouldn't believe at FL390.

It's just not the type of flying I would like to do. Flying at 5000ft or 10000ft is much more like it for me.

So my goal right now, is to figure out, if there is a type of job, as a pilot, that suites the type of flying that I like. That is my quest. And if there isn't, I'll just go and work as an Engineer and fly for pleasure or fly for hire as a sightseeing pilot. Or even one day, open my own sightseeing/charter flight business and be one of the pilots.

But it seems, the only other serious jobs besides Majors, Regionals and Cargo are Corporate and air-taxi/charter...and I yet have to figure out if these types of job are for me.

And one of the means I try to figure this out, is through this board...and hopefullly, I'll find the right path in my life...

Archer

 

[puddlejumper]

Networking

Archer,

You may want to consider the networking opportunities of being a flight instructor at any busy FBO, especially one with a decent sales department. If an instructor is doing his or her job well at all, (s)he'll be out promoting aviation and learning how to fly. You have to think about the demographics of who you would be marketing to. If you can get up with a successful individual with a genuine need for owning an airplane, you may be setting yourself up for that ideal corporate gig you're out to find.

When I started in professional aviation in late '98, I was introduced to a student who wound up buying a brand new Archer III with a partnership with his brother. Since then, I've flown the non-pilot brother on personal and business trips for over 600 hours. We have discussed many times about getting me on a salary and also upgrading aircraft. We've looked at Barons, King Airs and I even test-flew a Citation for him. Unfortunately, after 3 years of part-timing, I had to bail for a full-time job flying a Cheyenne II. I still fly the Archer on occasion and I've found a couple pilots who are available during the week to fill in.

While building your student base as a CFI, you can make a huge impact on decisions made by your students. You can discuss the time and tax benefits of owning their own plane and also the option of leasing it back for the flight school or for CHARTER. Referral bonuses are pretty good for a starving CFI if your lead results in the sale of a new airplane. Just a bit of advice though... document everything and make sure you are involved with the interaction with the salespeople.

I flew an Aztec part 135 once I had instructed about 1 1/2 years and managed to build 100 hrs multi. The Aztec was leased back to the FBO and a majority of my time in that thing was providing part 91 pilot services in it for the owner. When it came time to overhaul the Aztec, we wound up selling the owner a new 206. I flew the 206 for the owner for about 200 hours.

Once you have some high performance time, flying skydivers is an excellent way to build time. Fly a season in a Cessna and you'll be able to work your way into some turbine equipment in no time. It's all about being reliable, available and profitable. Knowing the right people helps a lot too.

Once you get some turbine time under your belt, you may find yourself being called by some of the corporate and charter operators to be a right-seat warmer/ballast guy in a King Air. On the part 91 legs you'll be able to fly and log more PIC! Once your name is out there (of course, this whole time you should have about 50 resumes out circulating and being updated every month or so) you'll get a call for an entry level full time corporate job. The money may not be all that, but the experience will be good! After a while, you can get a reputation around the FBO and when a decent full-time jet SIC or turbine PIC job comes up, you'll get a call.

For me this process took just under 4 years. Now, finally, I can keep the fridge stocked with plenty of food other than Ramen noodles, go out when I want and start living a comfortable life! For your reference, I got my pvt in '89, joined the Navy in '90 and got all my CFI certificates with the GI Bill in '98.

Don't let the idea of being a flight instructor discourage you. It's your opportunity to learn lots about flying, yourself and other pilots. It's also an excellent chance to begin the process of NETWORKING!

-PJ

 

[banned username 2]

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I have flown as a passenger in 200+ airline flights, 20+ of them Transatlantics. And I get bored as you wouldn't believe at FL390.

It's just not the type of flying I would like to do. Flying at 5000ft or 10000ft is much more like it for me.

So my goal right now, is to figure out, if there is a type of job, as a pilot, that suites the type of flying that I like.

Well you won't make much money flying slow and low... The money just isn't there... You might like crop-dusting... I hear you can make a pretty decent buck and it is definately flying low and slow... all seat-of-the-pants flying...

Unfortunately you aren't going to find someone to pay you $50,000-$60,000 flying a twin Cessna... You sound like you would probably more enjoy a career in another field and flying for fun on the weekends... I honestly don't think you are going to find the job you are looking for at a salary you can live (long term) on...

Good Luck!

 

[puddlejumper]

To reiterate my previous post, with proper networking you may wind up in some more advanced equipment. I personally know of an instructor who started with a guy, he bought a new Saratoga, then a Seneca, then a King Air C90B, then a CitationJet and finally a Citation Bravo. Unfortunately, after the Bravo, the pilot bailed, but hey this guy may wind up in a Falcon or Gulfstream some day.

Treat every student like a multi-millionaire. It may lead to bigger and better things!

-PJ

 

[Archer]

So puddlejumper, this "networking" you talk about, you say a CFI has a chance to meet many student pilots, and make many connections through them, to perhaps rich people, that own light twins or singles, and need pilots to fly them? And that they upgrade to turbine airplanes?

So you say, it's a little by chance. You meet the right person who offers you the right job, just some rich guy that wants you to fly him around in a pistion at first?


Falcon, professional pilots start with piston singles, then move on to twin pistons and so on.

I think I would enjoy this type of flying and would not be in any hurry to move on to turbine. That's what I'm trying to get across. I wouldn't mind flying say 2 or 3 years or more (if the pay is not horrible) and building multi time, and then moving on to turbine and jet.

I think I should correct myself. I wouldn't like to fly at FL390 with a big jet airliner. But I would love to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear at that or even FL 510

But I think some people might not like (just like the case of CFI) the time they have to spend in piston airplanes, wanting to go to jet planes right away. I'm saying I have no such urge, and would not mind building up quite some time in Senecas and Barons, and then later on in King Airs for a slow transition to business jets.

ARcher

 

[banned username 2]

Falcon, professional pilots start with piston singles, then move on to twin pistons and so on.

I think I would enjoy this type of flying and would not be in any hurry to move on to turbine. That's what I'm trying to get across. I wouldn't mind flying say 2 or 3 years or more (if the pay is not horrible) and building multi time, and then moving on to turbine and jet.

I think I should correct myself. I wouldn't like to fly at FL390 with a big jet airliner. But I would love to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear at that or even FL 510

But I think some people might not like (just like the case of CFI) the time they have to spend in piston airplanes, wanting to go to jet planes right away. I'm saying I have no such urge, and would not mind building up quite some time in Senecas and Barons, and then later on in King Airs for a slow transition to business jets.

ARcher

Now I am really confused, earlier you we basically saying you wanted to be flying something big and fast by the time you had 600 hours, then you said you had absolutely no interest in flying anything that has more than 10 seats or that flies above 5,000-10,000 ft... Now you are back to wanting to fly a Citation/Gulfstream/Lear (I am disappointed you didn't include a Falcon in this mix )

OK, lets make this easy... what is your ultimate goal? Lets say, when you are 35 years old and have 7,000 hours... where do you want to be? Flying what kind of aircraft in what kind of job? Then we can reverse engineer that into a realistic career path for you....

Man you change your mind a lot, this isn't my wife is it????

 

[Archer]

Falcon, I should of included Falcon In fact, I really like the tri-jet design...(btw, how does it compare to twin-jets? Just even less of a chance of loosing all thrust?)

The truth is, I don't really know what to do myself either Falcon.

I know what I DON'T want to do though.

I don't want to fly in any Major airlines EVER! It is out of the question, I don't like it. I feel about regionals the same way, to a lesser extent, as the flight times are significatnly lower, and the airplanes smaller. For example, the difference between my 8+ hour 777 ride Heathrow-O'hare and the 33 minute ride on ERJ-135 from O'Hare to Indy.

So no regionals or majors. Cargo, it's even worse. No Cargo at all. I feel it's more challenging to carry passengers, and a huge motivation to be the best pilot you can be. Plus you might to get to meet a few extra people.

So no Cargo, Regionals or Majors. I can't join the Air Force because of my bad eye sight. So no military.

I don't want to fly little planes for the rest of my life either. I.e medevac, bush pilots, or whatever requires use of small piston airplanes. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but I'm sure after 10 years of flying a Seneca, even that will get boring, and I'll want to fly a King Air or a Light Jet.

So tell me Falcon, what does that leave me with? Corporate aviation.

Flying rich people in their private jets, or flying business men with company jets, or whoever else uses business jets.


Now, if you asked me for my real dream, where I really wanted to be when I will be 35? You'll get scared.

My dream, would be to own a flight business of some kind, with piston, turbine and jet airplanes up to light/medium business jet size, and be one of the pilots as well, in some beautiful area of the world with a flexible schdule making over 100 grand a year.

Now that is my dream. That would satisfy three of my wants:

1) Fly
2) Make a lot of money
3) Have a flexible schedule *I* control

Now, you are probably thinking, this guy wants the moon. Well you are probably right, and the only way I probably woudl ever be able to fly a business jet would be by flying someone elses, on someone else's schedule, at a much lower salary.


Now, I realize that the "owning the flight business and being one fo the pilots as well" is a little far fetched, but it still hovers in the back of my mind everyday of my life.

A more realistic goal would be to where you are today Falcon. You said your company hires with an initial salary of 80,000. That takes care of my goal of making a good amount of money with my job. You fly the Falcon 900EX and have flown Citations, Lears, King Airs and what not. You are the captain of a fabulous airplane. It is probably a lot of fun. So that cares of the "flying" part. The only thing remaining is the shedule flexibility, but that is not as important as the other two.

Getting to a position were you fly a multi-million dollar piece of equipment, have fun and make a lot of money would basically satisfy my goals and desires.

One other thing I forgot to mention is that I would like a job as a pilot were trips don't take more than 5 hours or so. Short trips basically. Otherwise we approach the my dislike for Major airlines, the only difference being that of flying a smaller airplane.

One of my major concerns though, is the fact that I'm not a US citizen. It is one the things that bothers me the most about my current major in college. 90% of the companies that I would like to work with I can't, because they require US citizenship. Now I've heard that the airlines require too after 9/11, I just hope corporate flying doesn't.

So basically, i'm currently training in the FAA system, so it would be good if I decided to become a professional pilot, to establish myself here with a job. If not, I would have to go to Europe, and adapt to the JAA system, and I don't know how different it is, and whether I need to spend another billion dollars and hours to re-train. Plus, there is a language problem...though english is the international pilot's language...does that mean I would have no trouble flying in France, Italy, Spain, Germany etc?

So I have several barriers ahead of me if I wanted to become a professional corporate pilot:

1)Trying to decide whether Corporate flying, and professional flying is for me in the first place

2)If I discover that this is the case, then the next step is convicing my parents that I would like to become a professional pilot, rather than an Aeronautical and Astronautical Engineer with a Masters and even MBA in that field. I would most probably have to give up getting an MS and spend time and money flying

3)If I decide to fly professionally, and my parents ever agree to it, then what remains is finish up my BS in AAE and start getting those FAA ratings and licences and building up hours somehow.

4)Once I graduate, and perhaps have PP/ASEL-IA or perhaps even CP/ASEL-IA or PP/AMEL-IA then I have to see if I can get a job not being a US citizen, i.e. getting a working visa to be able to continue staying in the US or having to go back to Europe

5)Now, if I decided to fly professionally, if my parents agreed to it, if I had gotten my B.S.A.A.E degree, and had gotten the ratings up to PP or CP/ASEL-IA, then if i got a flying job and visa in the US, I would just continue to work in the US as a pilot, and try to get a green card and a good Corporate job in the US.

If not, I would have to go back to Europe, and I have no clue how anything related to aviation works there compared to the FAA and US system. I would be in a state of confusion.

Well, the alternative to all this, is once again, getting my BSAAE, MSAAE and working as an engineer full time, and flying for pleasure or working as a CFI or something par time...either in the US or Europe, depending on who is willing to hire me.

So basically, I am one confused student right now. I have to paths ahead of me. That of an Engineer, and part time leisure Pilot. Or that of a Professional Pilot, with a background in Aerospace Engineering.

This will most probably be the biggest decision that I will make in my entire life. I will have to listen to my parents, to my friends, relatives, teachers and people on this board.

I will have to get as much advice and information as possible, and make an informed decision in the end.

I will still go up to ATP as a goal in life. No matter what path I choose. And that decision will have to be made within the next year 2004.

Archer

 

[Snakum]

"a CFI is a master pilot, an almost perfect pilot"

Wow ... where are YOU flying?

CFIs are all over the map, just like any other profession. In 1995, when I first started taking lessons at a little FBO in NC, my instructor was a young Dutch kid who didn't really have his heart in it and felt he wasn't gonna learn anything new. He had already flown around 500 hours in Holland and he was just over here building time. And boy ... was he building time. I only flew four times with him (all early mornings) and three of those he was literally still drunk from partying the night before. Just reeking. I didn't know any better ... I figured all instructors were like this. You know ... hard-drinking cowboy types. What did I know? On my fourth flight he decided it'd be fun to show me a spin. If I'd thought I could land the plane I'd have thrown him out. I'd wanted to fly since I was a kid (I was in my thirties) but I didn't want any part of this, I figured all civilian instructors were like Mr. Fun-is-where-you-find-it.

He just didn't care about teaching, or about learning. And if you really hate the thought of CFI'ing ... for the sake of new pilots coming up ... don't teach. Don't even get a CFI. Go pull banners er sump'n. I didn't fly again for a year, and almost by chance met an instructor at a larger FBO in NC and discovered that most CFIs are dedicated professionals, regardless of age (and if anyone knows where Mike Kennington is lemme know). Captain Cowboy was an anomoly, and in no way a representative of the profession, but I'm afraid he has company.

Because I've had to start and stop so many times over the years, and because I've also moved alot, I have flown with a huge number of CFIs. And I have flown with instructors at other places who were rude and arrogant or lazy and risky or whatever. And it always comes back to whether or not their heart is really in it, I think. The FBO where I finally finished my PPL had, by far, the most professional and personable instructors I've seen. Instructors there, like my primary CFI and a couple of his coworkers (KingAirKiddo), appeared to me to be in it for all the right reasons. I was there when COEX hired at least one CFI at 600/100 but these guys never seemed to be in a great rush to get in an RJ. They were doing their job, and doing it well, because they wanted to teach and were still willing to learn. Now, all flight instructors laugh at, and talk $hit about, goofy things students do. But on the job ... they were consumate professionals.

So, as I said, do the next student a favor. Stay out of the FSDO and just go pull banners er sump'n. A CFI who hated instructing almost disuaded me from something that has become very dear to me, I'd hate for you to do that to someone else.

Minh "Preachy" Thong

 

[StrykerFL]

Archer, Pick Up This Book & Flying in Alaska

Archer,

You have a lot of good questions and seem very eager to learn as much as you can about this industry and that’s good. I was the same way when I was just starting out. I recommend that you pick up a book titled the “Professional Pilot Career Guide” by Robert P. Marx. The ISBN # is 0-07-134691-0. It is a excellent resource for the up-and-coming pilot. It thoroughly outlines the following topics:

1. Flight Training
- Flight Schools
- Training Standardization
- Part 61 or 141
- Costs
2. Ratings
3. Where the Jobs Are
- Resume Writing
- CFI
- Time Builders
- Banner Towing
4. Regional Airlines
5. Major Airlines
6. More Jobs
- Charter Flying
- Corporate Flying
- Government Flying

Career-wise personally I will probably build up another 500-700 hrs and then go up to Alaska and find a flying job up there, more than likely a 135 Cargo job. My brother has been up there for three-years now and has been flying about 120-140 hrs a month in a Skyvan (twin turboprop) and is making about 60k/year. Hell even A 206 job at the same company pays 45k. Also I am worried about the state of the industry right now and in the coming 5-7 years. If the Majors keep furloughing pilots at the rate they are going and don’t start recalling for another 2-3 years that would put a hiring window at around 5-7 years from now and maybe even as much as 10. And that is not taking into account certain factors such as another terrorist attack, war with Iraq, etc.. Sure the Regionals are hiring now, but for how long? As long as they are putting new equipment online they will be hiring however, since the Majors aren’t hiring that means that Regional Captains are not moving up and eventually, when the Regionals quit buying new aircraft they will quit hiring as well. Some say it is best to get in now but do you get in now and get trapped as a First Officer for who knows how long? Or do you pursue a different route such as corporate or cargo? I don’t mean to sound negative but that just seems to be the way things are going right now.

Like I said earlier, I will go up to Alaska and put my skills the test. I have been there many times and I must say that flying up there would be absolutely amazing. You cannot imagine how beautiful it is up there. Another deciding factor is that no matter what happens, terrorist attacks (Biological or Nuclear), War, or raising oil prices, much of Alaska’s economy depends on aviation to survive, so there will always be good flying jobs there. If I were you and looking at a serious flying career, do your research, look at all the options. Get that book. For instance, I know one company, Pen Air (Anchorage), that hires low-time pilots into the right seat of the Caravan, and it is legitimate SIC turbine time. So there are many different options available to you, just make sure and explore them all.

Anonther thing, if you are looking for some challenging flying, it does not matter if you are flying people or boxes. At least with boxes they don't complain and get scared and nervous when you are flying in clouds, fog, icing, snow, sleet, and other nasty s**t. If you really want a challange go fly in Alaska. It dosen't get much worse than that. My brother told me about his typical day. He flies in western Alaska and makes deliveries to remote villages. First he checks to see if he can even takeoff, weather, crosswind under 35-knots, good-to-go. Winds during the winter months there can reach 100-knots. Next he gets his daily routing and preflights the A/C. He flies the Skyvan so he flies the longer routes and bigger loads, but he still lands on 1500' gravel strips. Navigation is easy with the CAPSTONE system. Fifty-miles to his destination he'll call the village to find out the weather and that usually depends on what he is delivering. If it's beer or liquor the weather is always good. He'll land on some of the s**tiest runways you have ever seen unload, take a piss and head back home. Western Alaska is pretty much all frozen tundra so there isn't much to look at besides for the occasional heard of Moose or Caribou. There aren't too many VOR's but there are a ton of NDB's so you're NDB skills must be excellent. Once you find you're way back home you must land with that 35-knot direct crosswind and remember to hold in the crosswind correction on the ground else you get flipped. When it is all said and done he flew 8-hours and got some quality twin-turbine time. Sound challenging? I think so. Much more challenging conditions than you'll find here in the "Lower 48" as they say. The only disavantages is that it isn't cheap to live in Alaska, winters can be very, very, very cold, summers however are amazing, and oh yeah, you get up to 24-hours of daylight in the summer and as little as 4-hours of daylight in the winter. This also depends on where you live. But they do pay you to live there, so that kinda offsets it.

Whatever you do in your career remember one thing, enjoy it. If you really love to fly it's not about the money, benefits, or travel; it's the ability to be seperated from the Earth and fly like bird. To truly be free.

Good-Luck.

 

[banned username 2]

Well Archer... You sould like you might Like Corporate Aviation... We have constant variety in schedule and destinations... You get to know your passengers very well (our company we are all on first name basis...)

You could try to find a Coporate operator who flies mainly domestic.. that would keep your legs under 4-5 hours...

Don't discount the International Corporate flying... I used to think that I didn't want to leave the country.. after years of flying domestically the International flying was a new and exciting challenge... And when you fly the bigger airplanes on the longer trips you eat REALLY well enroute... I like to think of my job as "Eating my way around the world!"

Keep you mind open to new and exciting things... you are at the tip of the iceberg right now... you have no idea how vast the aviation industry can be...

Just like there are good and bad airline jobs, there are good and bad Corporate jobs... If you get a good one you will make good money, fly great equipment and have a decent schedule... (we average 12 days a month of work, leaving an average of 18 days a month off... and when we are off, we have no other company related duties...)

Keep your mind open... Oh and as far as Corporate Aviation in Europe.... it is tiny compared to the US... There are (relatively) very few Corporate operators in Europe.

Good Luck!

 

[COOPERVANE]

WHAT???? FLAMEBAIT????

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

So no Cargo, Regionals or Majors. I can't join the Air Force because of my bad eye sight. So no military.

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I don't want to fly little planes for the rest of my life either. I.e medevac, bush pilots, or whatever requires use of small piston airplanes. Don't get me wrong, I love them, but I'm sure after 10 years of flying a Seneca, even that will get boring, and I'll want to fly a King Air or a Light Jet.

ARCHER..........YOU ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE. Start with your private first. Fly for a while and get your instrument ticket while in school. If you still want to do this for a living you will be in a MUCH better and well informed position than you are now.

HIRED AT 6-700 HOURS? read banner towing (2 years ago)

I KNOW YOU ARE JUST ASKING BUT YOU ARE GETTING WAAAAAAYYY AHEAD OF YOURSELF

There is no magic bullet, we all have to pay our dues

 

[Archer]

Coopervane, the decision I would have to make is in a year and a half. Probably the biggest decision of my life, I don't think I'm getting ahead at all.

I'm just aquiring advice and information to be able to make a better choice when the time comes (which is not far from now).

It's a lot of infromation out there in the aviation world...and it takes time to get to know it...so might as well start early...

Is Corporate Aviation really less common in Europe? Any reason for it?

Have you flown in Europe Falcon? How difficult would it be to adapt to the JAA system coming from the US FAA one?

One thing I know about Europe (the UK specifically) is that it cost WAAY more to learn to fly, and to keep proficiency/currency...I think there is an annual fee that pilots (even Private Pilots) have to pay yearly to keep their licence...and it's not a little fee either...that's what I heard I think...not 100% on it though....

Archer