Can anyone introduce me to Corp. Flying?

[banned username 2]

Archer... first of all... the progression doesn't typically go CFI, Charter, Corporate, Regional, Major...

Typically after being a CFI you decide which way you are leaning...

Then you decide if the Majors are your ultimate goal, you try to start at the Regionals...

If Corporate is your ultimate goal you start at Charter...

My company (a very large Fortune 100 Corporation) has hiring minimums right at 5,000 hours which must include at least 2,500 multi engine, 1,500 turbine of which 1,000 is jet... Our starting pay is right at $80,000 per year

The Charter company I used to fly for had minimums around 1,500-2,000 hours with 500+ multi engine... Starting pay was around $30,000-$35,000 per year for a First Officer (Co-Pilot)

Most Regional airlines now have a minimums of somewhere around 1,200-1,500 hours with 300-500 multi engine. Remember these are MINIMUMS, just because you meet the minimums in no way guarantees you will get hired... There are always guys with more competitive times than you. Competitive minimums are probably more around 2,500 with 1,000 multi engine. I think the day of the 600-800 hour new hire are long gone... Starting pay at the regionals is somewhere around $20,000 per year

Most Major airlines have minimums around 4,000-5,000 hours with usually 2,000+ multi and 1,000 turbine.... Starting pay (first year) is generally $35,000-$45,000 depending on company... Now keep in mind that the big majors ALL have MANY pilots on Furlough ie. Laid-off. (Delta has about 1,000 and is heading for 1,400, UAL has about 1,000 and American is close to 1,000) and it will probably be many years until they are recalled... this stagnation will slow hiring throughout the industry... and even when recalls start, it will take a couple years to complete the recalls and get everyone retrained.... and then they will need more demand before they start hiring additional pilots... UAL, Delta and AA are all talking about the possiblity of Bankruptcy... if this happens unfortunately you will see even more highly qualified pilots out on the street... Time are not good right now...

In short the days of getting 600 hours and getting a job with the regionals are LONG gone... That era that you are so familiar with (1996-2000) was the exception and not the rule... That type of hiring will probably never return to the industry... So if you are getting into the industry, you'd better be prepared for a much slower progression than you may have seen in the past... Many pilots on this board Flight Instructed until they had 2,500-3,000+ hours... flew at the Regionals until they had 6,000-7,000+ hours before ever getting to the Majors... and now at the majors, they are unemployed... There are also A LOT of pilots now making careers at the Regionals.... Some by their own choosing, some not...

When I would help people decide on if they should take a particular job or not, I always asked then "Would you be happy staying there for 10 years?" and they would say "well I only plan to stay 2 years to build experience" Well my point was, no one can predict the future... and you never know what might happen to stop everything in its tracks (ie. September 11, Bad Economy, etc...) You always have to try to plan ahead for the unknown...

This isn't an easy industry... it may look like cake and glamour from the outside, it is anything but... Just ask the guys who have worked their a$$es of for many years as a CFI and Regional pilot only to reach their goal at a Major and now find themselves in the unemployment line... It just isn't fair.... but then again, life isn't fair...

If I were you, I would plan the following progression, if it happens faster, great... if not at least you knew in advance...

If your goal is Corporate:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours minimum)
Fly Charter for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 3,500+ hours min.)
Then you will be marketable for a decent Corporate job....

If your goal is the Majors:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours)
Fly at the Regionals for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 4,000-5,000 hours min)
And hopefully by that time (7-8 years Minimum) the Majors will starting to be hiring with some regularity that will cause some movement in the industry... if not... You will see MANY pilots making careers at the Regionals...

I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but just want you to have more realistic expectations....

I hope this helps...

Good Luck!

Falcon Capt.

 

[banned username 2]

FalconCapt, The "Corporate" job in the Bonanza was just as you described. Still, it was a nice occasional break from touch & gos for an 800 hour CFI.

Archer, Sorry to burst your bubble, but if instructing sounds tedious to you when you have twenty-something hours I doubt you will be going "pro". Stick to flying on the weekends for fun.

The hour requirements stated above are usually driven by two things-insurance and the job market. Right now a buzillion hours and every type rating in the book wont get you a job at Delta, United, American, etc. Two years ago people were getting these jobs with less than 3000 hours. The same kind of thing goes across the board. If there are few pilots looking for jobs you may find a corporate dream job with 1500 hours or get on with a top of the line regional with under 1,000. When the market is flooded with very experienced pilots the minimums go up, and even then competition is tight.

I'm sorry if the thought of having to build experience beyond 800 or so hours gets you down, or if you cringe at the thought of having to be a CFI, but that is how this profession works.
If you do choose to pursue aviation as a profession, PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that once you have a few hundered hours and a commercial certificate you are ready for anything.
The best pilots are the ones who know they are not the best yet, no matter how fat the logbook is.

Good Luck

FlyWrite... Excellent post, and I couldn't agree more....

I agree, if Archer is already "dreading" the steps to an Aviation Career the you are dead on saying he might be happier in another field and fly for fun on the weekends...

Archer... again I don't mean to discourage... but just because you love to go up and fly doesn't mean you'll love an Aviation Career... Flying around in your Archer for fun is TOTALLY different than flying the line at an airline or flying Corporate...

Good Luck!

 

[airbaker]

Falcon Capt,

You couldn't have laid it out more succinctly; I wholeheartedly agreed with your assessment of the industry at present. I think the "irrational exuberance" of the tech-boom has manifested in the aspirations of some newcomers.
*Archer, this isn't meant to be a put-down to you. But it would be unfair to you, or anyone else new to the industry, to try to paint it with a different brush.

Things will get better... it's just a question of time.

Good Luck to all of us!

 

[TAG2]

Paying your dues

Archer,

It is called "paying your dues", like it or not, that is the way it is. That is what 99% of us have had to do. Instructing is just the start of it besides the tremendous benefits you would recieve while doing it. You need to get some good PIC time. By putting you into the right seat of anything at 800 hours will not be doing you any favors. You will most likely sit there for longer than you care to think and become discouraged.

If this is what you really want to do for a living, you will most likely have to take the same path that most of us had to. That is just the way it is.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Archer]

I see your points. And the more I read about this, the more I start to understand how things work in professional aviation.

I just don't really see myself as a CFI. I would rather not be a CFI at all, and go the "unconventional" way, be it harder or not, than be a bad CFI, waste student's money and risk theirs and others' lives.

I have no experience at all (30 hours, many of the people on this board don't even bother counting below 100 hour increments), yet, from logic, and what I experience during my flight lessons, I cad deduce that being a CFI is good for a while, and it helps in many ways to improve a pilot, especially in the basics, but after a while, I think it become redundant, and the pilot stops advancing in many ways.

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

So all I'm saying is, to me, a CFI is a master pilot, an almost perfect pilot. That's how a CFI should be in my eyes at least. And it takes a lot of character, and I think not everyone is born to be a CFI. And it saddens me that going through the "CFI job" is an "hour-building obligation" for regional/major/corporate pilots...because I doubt all of these people who have CFIs like being CFIs...they probably can't wait to get out of there and go fly the "real job" and thus do a bad job instructing...

I don't know yet if I could ever be a CFI, a real one that is. I could probably get the Certificate...but that doesn't mean much. It's just a piece of paper...the CFI has to "feel" like being a CFI, be enthusiastic.

I think sightseeing tours of some kind would be better for me, though hopefully they won't be restricted to 25nm...

or any type of low time charter job...just to get started, be happy and build those hours for something bigger and greater...

Archer

 

[Flywrite]

Archer, I'm a big advocate of instructing. It builds skills beyond simple stick & rudder flying which will be invaluable the first time you find yourself in a simulator with another pilot, who you MUST work with to succeed. However, having said this, I have no time whatosever for CFIs who care about nothing more than filling logbook pages. I enjoyed doing it, but I understand that it isnt for everyone. If you dont think it fits your personality, then you have my admiration for choosing NOT to do it. It is definately something that should be done well or not at all (as are all jobs in our field).

If you choose to be a professional pilot without instructing try to get as much time as you can flying with another pilot. Perhaps along the way pick up a book or two on crew operations and try to include some of the basic procedures in your flying.

As for getting a "low time charter job", dont count on it. You will more than likely spend your first thousand hours flying banners around the same patch of sky or flying circles around traffic accidents. You may get lucky and find yourself in a Seneca at 500 hours or a King Air at 1000, but if you do you will be the exception, rather than the rule.

Whichever route you take, it will be tough-it is for everyone. Each pilot in the profession pays his or her dues in some way or another, be it through hours of touch and gos, towing banners, hauling checks, patroling the skies of Iraq, or flying skydivers (this may be an option for you, though the jobs are no where near as numerous as instructor positions). It's just the nature of the business. You must understand this before you embark on the professional pilot path. Your current plan of getting a low time charter job is just not realistic enough to sustain you through the frustration and hardship that will be a frequent visitor if you pursue this careeer path.

Just so I dont sound too discouraging, remember that flying is not like any other job. I mean how many accountants or managers do you think spend hours on accounting or managing message boards? It's a great way to make a living once you get a decent job, and even before then it can be immensely rewarding.

Good Luck!

 

[cvsfly]

And who said you can't be a good CFI just because you think you would not enjoy it? I don't admire those who CFI and watch the hour meter turn. But why not accept that it is an honorable way to build time and at the same time try to be the best CFI possible? It is a shame that the majority of the CFI industry has become some rite of passage and a time-building stepping stone. In a perfect socialistic world, your teachers would be 10,000 hour B-747 experienced captains who are paid $200,000 salaries and the young new and eager pilots would be flying the automated well equipped airliners getting paid $20,000/yr. Then again, nah.

 

[banned username 2]

I just don't really see myself as a CFI. I would rather not be a CFI at all, and go the "unconventional" way, be it harder or not, than be a bad CFI, waste student's money and risk theirs and others' lives.

I have no experience at all (30 hours, many of the people on this board don't even bother counting below 100 hour increments), yet, from logic, and what I experience during my flight lessons, I cad deduce that being a CFI is good for a while, and it helps in many ways to improve a pilot, especially in the basics, but after a while, I think it become redundant, and the pilot stops advancing in many ways.

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

I learned more about flying BEING a Flight Instructor than I did during my private, Instrument, Multi-engine, Commercial and CFI, CFI-I and CFI-ME training combined... Being a CFI isn't to build hours, it is to build experience... and very valuable experience at that...

Do you really think flying right seat in a King Air or a Citation at 600 hours is going to teach you anything? It will teach you how to operate the Gear handle and the radios... You will not be PIC and thus will not be able to learn from your own mistakes (decisions)... and learning from your mistakes (without killing yourself) is what experience is... it isn't some Captain telling you "You'd better not do that", it is doing it and saying "HOLY $HIT, what the he!l did I do THAT for?!?!?!". I can tell you not to cross-control your stalls until I am blue in the face, but all I have to do is let you do it once and have the airplane snap inverted and I guarantee you'll never do it again!

Yeah, yeah... everyone wants to be a 747 Captain right after they get their ratings... well it just doesn't work that way... never has and never will... Life is tough and you gotta pay your dues... and there are a lot of dues to pay... Typically I tell new people in the industry plan to work about 7 years before you get into a decent job (making good money, on good equipment with a decent schedule) anything short of that plan to work your a$$ off and not make squat... But you know, Ramen noodles aren't that bad.... and after a while you can even afford some chicken to put in the noodles.... The first 5-7 years, the money stinks, the hours stink, the equipment sticks and the money stinks (did I mention the money stinks?)...

Experience is king... flying straight and level day VFR will build your hours but what does it do for you? Not a heck of a lot... but going out everyday doing steep turns, stalls, MCA, emergencies, ground reference maneuvers and such will make you very sharp... even though your hands aren't on the controls...

I agree... in the "perfect world" the CFI's would be the "Master Pilots", the guys who have 30+ years experience, etc... It would be the final job you strive for... But the world isn't perfect and neither is this industry... As you probably have seen, flying isn't that hard... but it takes a very disciplined person to make a career out of it...

Keep your expectations realistic... and in focus... and if you are already "getting bored" of the trusty Cessna 172... then you are probably heading in the wrong direction (Career wise)... This coming from someone with over 1,600 hours of C-172 time... not to mention nearly 1,700 hours of Dual Given...

Pay your dues and get as much "good" experience as possible... It will pay you back in spades later... and you will be a much better pilot for it... Trust me, I've been there, done that... You have a crap load to learn yet.... and even after you have your CFI you will merely be at the "Infancy" of your Aviation Career.... At that point you know enough to get by, but there is a whole world left to learn... and you should never stop learning... everyday I learn something new when flying, some days it's something big, other days its tiny... but the day you stop learning is the day you should stop flying...

Good Luck!

 

[Archer]

I don't think I will ever get tired of single engine 4 seater piston airplanes. I think they are more fun (IMHO) than a 777 or 747 could ever be.

If someone told me they would give me for free an Archer or a 777, and that I would have to choose one, and that I wouldn't be able to re-sell it, I would definitely, without question, go with the Archer.

It is just my preference. If I go into aviation, I don't think I would ever work for any Part 121 job (i.e Regionals and Majors mainly).

I fact, I wouldn't ever want to fly a plane with more than 10 seats for a living.

I have flown as a passenger in 200+ airline flights, 20+ of them Transatlantics. And I get bored as you wouldn't believe at FL390.

It's just not the type of flying I would like to do. Flying at 5000ft or 10000ft is much more like it for me.

So my goal right now, is to figure out, if there is a type of job, as a pilot, that suites the type of flying that I like. That is my quest. And if there isn't, I'll just go and work as an Engineer and fly for pleasure or fly for hire as a sightseeing pilot. Or even one day, open my own sightseeing/charter flight business and be one of the pilots.

But it seems, the only other serious jobs besides Majors, Regionals and Cargo are Corporate and air-taxi/charter...and I yet have to figure out if these types of job are for me.

And one of the means I try to figure this out, is through this board...and hopefullly, I'll find the right path in my life...

Archer

 

[puddlejumper]

Networking

Archer,

You may want to consider the networking opportunities of being a flight instructor at any busy FBO, especially one with a decent sales department. If an instructor is doing his or her job well at all, (s)he'll be out promoting aviation and learning how to fly. You have to think about the demographics of who you would be marketing to. If you can get up with a successful individual with a genuine need for owning an airplane, you may be setting yourself up for that ideal corporate gig you're out to find.

When I started in professional aviation in late '98, I was introduced to a student who wound up buying a brand new Archer III with a partnership with his brother. Since then, I've flown the non-pilot brother on personal and business trips for over 600 hours. We have discussed many times about getting me on a salary and also upgrading aircraft. We've looked at Barons, King Airs and I even test-flew a Citation for him. Unfortunately, after 3 years of part-timing, I had to bail for a full-time job flying a Cheyenne II. I still fly the Archer on occasion and I've found a couple pilots who are available during the week to fill in.

While building your student base as a CFI, you can make a huge impact on decisions made by your students. You can discuss the time and tax benefits of owning their own plane and also the option of leasing it back for the flight school or for CHARTER. Referral bonuses are pretty good for a starving CFI if your lead results in the sale of a new airplane. Just a bit of advice though... document everything and make sure you are involved with the interaction with the salespeople.

I flew an Aztec part 135 once I had instructed about 1 1/2 years and managed to build 100 hrs multi. The Aztec was leased back to the FBO and a majority of my time in that thing was providing part 91 pilot services in it for the owner. When it came time to overhaul the Aztec, we wound up selling the owner a new 206. I flew the 206 for the owner for about 200 hours.

Once you have some high performance time, flying skydivers is an excellent way to build time. Fly a season in a Cessna and you'll be able to work your way into some turbine equipment in no time. It's all about being reliable, available and profitable. Knowing the right people helps a lot too.

Once you get some turbine time under your belt, you may find yourself being called by some of the corporate and charter operators to be a right-seat warmer/ballast guy in a King Air. On the part 91 legs you'll be able to fly and log more PIC! Once your name is out there (of course, this whole time you should have about 50 resumes out circulating and being updated every month or so) you'll get a call for an entry level full time corporate job. The money may not be all that, but the experience will be good! After a while, you can get a reputation around the FBO and when a decent full-time jet SIC or turbine PIC job comes up, you'll get a call.

For me this process took just under 4 years. Now, finally, I can keep the fridge stocked with plenty of food other than Ramen noodles, go out when I want and start living a comfortable life! For your reference, I got my pvt in '89, joined the Navy in '90 and got all my CFI certificates with the GI Bill in '98.

Don't let the idea of being a flight instructor discourage you. It's your opportunity to learn lots about flying, yourself and other pilots. It's also an excellent chance to begin the process of NETWORKING!

-PJ