Can anyone introduce me to Corp. Flying?

[Archer]

I was just wondering what is needed to become a corporate pilot.

I read in some threads that Corporate flying is not just Citation or Lear Jet flying, but can also be a Baron 58 flying...does it go all the way to single engine/HP airplanes (I'm sure businessmen wouldn't like to flyin a 150 at 80 miles an hour)

If someone could clarifly the difference between Part 91, 121 and 135...and tell me if there are any other "Parts"

To my understanding, 121 is scheduled "airline" flying. As in Regionals and Majors. 135 is air taxi and charter (scheduled I'm guessing?) as compared to 91 which is not scheduled...just flight on request type of thing...?

Plus, what is the deal with single pilot flying, second in command, co-pilot, PIC, First Officer, Captain and all these terms. I really don't know the difference sometimes...

It seems Captain/FO combination is as high as you can go, means more responsability and the fact that the airplanes requires multi-crew operation...as in 2 pilots at least?

And is Second in command the same as FO?

And is size of the airplane the determining factor on weather you need one or two pilots?

LIke, you can be PIC, sp of a B200, but you can't ever be that for a Citation X or Falcon900X or whatever?


Lastaly, what ratings are required (i.e. is ATP required?) and what are the usual number of hour minimums...?

Can one get like a low time Commercial job instead of being a CFI to make up multi hours or whatever?

thanx

Archer

 

[cvsfly]

Wow you got a lot of questions and a long way to go. No exposure to aviation before? Best bet is to start reading books of interest - say from a Sporty's catalog. Pick a title and go from there. Sounds like pure regulation/FAR reading isn't going to get you there and there isn't enough room here to answer all of your questions.

 

[Flywrite]

Phew...thats a lot of info, but I'll see what I can do here...

1. Corporate can be in any kind of airplane. When I was instructing I flew "corporate" in a new Bonanza, and had a buddy doing the same thing in a Cessna Cardinal.

2.Part 91: Relatively relaxed part covering non-air carrier and non-military operations. Corporate falls into Pt91, as does flight instruction, for-hire sightseeing trips inside a 25nm radius of the home airport, and a renting a 172 for a trip to the beach (assuming you fly it yourself, or someone else does for free)

Part 121: Scheduled air carrier ops. The majors and regionals are Pt121, as are charters in 737s 727s, etc.

Part 135 is broadly similar to 121, but slightly less structured and restrictive. It covers on-demand/charter/air taxi operators. the charter King Air or Citation at your local field operates under Pt135 (hopefully).

3. The pilots. The number of pilots required depends upon the airplance's type certificate and/or type of operation. If you look in a C172 Manual it shows the minimum crew as one pilot. If you look in a Lear/Gulfstream/737/Jetstream/CRJ, etc manual it shows two pilots. Some turbine engine aircraft like King Airs and some Citations can be flown single pilot, except under Pt135, which requires two pilots for IFR operations.
To log SIC (second in command) time the aircraft or operation must require two pilots.
PIC is Pilot in Command and applies to anyone flying Single Pilot, whether in a 172 or Citation, or anyone who is acting as Captain in a two person crew.
Captain generally is the same as PIC. SIC, FO, and co-pilot are generally interchangeable terms, though airline right seaters are usually called FOs and corporate ones are often called co-pilots.
You can go from being a PIC on a B200 one flight to PIC on a Citation X, Falcon 900x, C172, or Concorde the next flight, provided you are certified for that aircraft and have the required training for the type operation. This practice is uncommon at better operators, and prohibited by almost all union contracts at airlines.

4. Ratings. You must hold an ATP plus associated Type Rating (if required-ariplanes over 12,500lbs of turbojet) to act as PIC in 121 ops, or under 135 in a Jet or aircraft with 10+ passenger seats. To be PIC in a 135 King Air (turboprop, less than 10 seats) requires commercial, instrument, multi-engine certification, and 1200 hours (500xc, 100 night, 75 instrument) VFR 135 requires 500 hours and a commercial certificate with appropriate category/class ratings. To be SIC in any of these operations requires a commercial certificate with appropriate ratings, no hour minimum. Bear in mind that these are all FAA mins and that insurance minimums are usually much higher, particularly for PIC.
A corporate Captain is under Pt 91 and only legally requires a Commercial certificate with category/class ratings, and a type rating if required. A 250 hour commercial pilot with multi-engine rating can fly as Captain in a Citation if he/she has the type rating, though insurance would be a big problem.
An individual who owns a Citation, or any other jet/large aircraft can fly it with a Private Certificate and the appropriate category/class/type rating.

Getting a coporate job insted of instructing to build time is possible, but its hard. Getting the CFI is a better wayto prepare for a career in a two-person airplane. Plus as a CFI you learn and improve your skills on every flight. Much better than vegging away in a Seneca or Bonanza.


Hope this info helps.

 

[SpiderMan]

Yes.

Corporate flying this is Archer. Archer this is Corporate flying.

 

[English]

Just a correction to flywrite's post...

Citationjets can be flown single pilot under 135 regulations, depending on the FSDO. Our ops specs allow us to as long as we have an operative autopilot (autopilot in lieu of second in command).

 

[Archer]

cvsfly, I'm a student pilot and have been exposed to aviation as much as the typical student pilot. I could books about this stuff, but I don't have the time right now, and this board is made to share aviation information, which is why I'm using it.

There is room in here, in fact Flywrite has answered basically every single question I asked in my opening post.

I'm just trying to getting a head start, and figuring out what it takes to become a professional pilot (corporate, air-taxi/charter mainly)

flywrite, sometimes they have minimum hour requirements for some HP pistons, where they will want for example X hours total, Y hours multi, Z hours complex/hp and B hours type

the hours of type, you don't need a type rating right? Type in this case just means that "type" of airplane? as in, a Seneca "type" or Arrow "type" or King Air B200 type? as in that particular model of airplane?

thanx for your post btw, it was very informative...

Archer

 

[Rick1128]

Archer,

To log flight time in an aircraft you only need to be required and qualified. You don't need a type rating except when you are acting as PIC in an aircraft that requires a type rating.

For insurance requirements, most insurance companies want time in type and they may require a break down of the flight time.

As for the CFI, there are other types of flying that do not require a CFI. Things like forest fire patrol, pipeline patrol, traffic reporting, banner towing, skydivers, scenic tours, etc. If you hit the right operator or the right year you could build up a reasonable amount of time.

 

[banned username 2]

Archer...

Think of it like this...

Airline Flying = City bus driving - generally fly the same routes at the same times carrying lots of people you don't know.

Charter Flying = Taxi driving - generally flying to anywhere, anytime people who you may or may not know, in relatively older equipment. Typically the pay isn't great and the equipment isn't state-of-the-art. The goal is to make money, and having a lot of extra fancy equipment on board doesn't help the bottom line... Typically Charter operators have fairly low hiring minimums. (1500 hours or so)

Corporate Flying = Limosine Driving - generally flying people you know to pre-scheduled destinations but can be called upon for shorter notice trips. Typically the pay is much greater than Charter and the equipment is generally much newer and better equipped. Typically the good Corporate jobs have much higher hiring minimums than Charter operators. (Typically 3000+ hours)

These are very GENERAL descriptions and things can vary greatly from company to company.... Typically there aren't any good Corporate jobs that fly piston equipment... Generally to make any reasonable money you need to fly Turbine equipment, and to narrow it further, Jet equipment...

My guess is the guy who was flying "Corporate" in a Bonanza was flying some guys airplane who happens to own a small company... and uses the airplane as a business write-off... not "Corporate" in the traditional sense of the word... I know our executives can't get on anything unless it has 2 engines and they are both turbine powered (and yes this includes helicopters, they must be twins)....

Hope this helps...

 

[Archer]

Are the flight hour requirements really that high?

3000 for corporate and 1500 for charter...so what, 5000 for Regionals and 8000 for Majors?

It seems so tedious...I would want to get a job at say 800 hours or 1000 max. I understand experience is important for safety of passengers, but isn't this a little too much abuse of the profession "pilot"?

So you can't fly anything with say 300 or so hours? Say a Seneca?

I think that's what I would love to do, rather than teach as a CFI, get some multi in a Seneca or Baron or any light twin...that will give me precious multi time and make it fun...

that's if I ever decide to go pro in the aviation career...

Archer

 

[Flywrite]

FalconCapt, The "Corporate" job in the Bonanza was just as you described. Still, it was a nice occasional break from touch & gos for an 800 hour CFI.

Archer, Sorry to burst your bubble, but if instructing sounds tedious to you when you have twenty-something hours I doubt you will be going "pro". Stick to flying on the weekends for fun.

The hour requirements stated above are usually driven by two things-insurance and the job market. Right now a buzillion hours and every type rating in the book wont get you a job at Delta, United, American, etc. Two years ago people were getting these jobs with less than 3000 hours. The same kind of thing goes across the board. If there are few pilots looking for jobs you may find a corporate dream job with 1500 hours or get on with a top of the line regional with under 1,000. When the market is flooded with very experienced pilots the minimums go up, and even then competition is tight.

I'm sorry if the thought of having to build experience beyond 800 or so hours gets you down, or if you cringe at the thought of having to be a CFI, but that is how this profession works.
If you do choose to pursue aviation as a profession, PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that once you have a few hundered hours and a commercial certificate you are ready for anything.
The best pilots are the ones who know they are not the best yet, no matter how fat the logbook is.

Good Luck

 

[banned username 2]

Archer... first of all... the progression doesn't typically go CFI, Charter, Corporate, Regional, Major...

Typically after being a CFI you decide which way you are leaning...

Then you decide if the Majors are your ultimate goal, you try to start at the Regionals...

If Corporate is your ultimate goal you start at Charter...

My company (a very large Fortune 100 Corporation) has hiring minimums right at 5,000 hours which must include at least 2,500 multi engine, 1,500 turbine of which 1,000 is jet... Our starting pay is right at $80,000 per year

The Charter company I used to fly for had minimums around 1,500-2,000 hours with 500+ multi engine... Starting pay was around $30,000-$35,000 per year for a First Officer (Co-Pilot)

Most Regional airlines now have a minimums of somewhere around 1,200-1,500 hours with 300-500 multi engine. Remember these are MINIMUMS, just because you meet the minimums in no way guarantees you will get hired... There are always guys with more competitive times than you. Competitive minimums are probably more around 2,500 with 1,000 multi engine. I think the day of the 600-800 hour new hire are long gone... Starting pay at the regionals is somewhere around $20,000 per year

Most Major airlines have minimums around 4,000-5,000 hours with usually 2,000+ multi and 1,000 turbine.... Starting pay (first year) is generally $35,000-$45,000 depending on company... Now keep in mind that the big majors ALL have MANY pilots on Furlough ie. Laid-off. (Delta has about 1,000 and is heading for 1,400, UAL has about 1,000 and American is close to 1,000) and it will probably be many years until they are recalled... this stagnation will slow hiring throughout the industry... and even when recalls start, it will take a couple years to complete the recalls and get everyone retrained.... and then they will need more demand before they start hiring additional pilots... UAL, Delta and AA are all talking about the possiblity of Bankruptcy... if this happens unfortunately you will see even more highly qualified pilots out on the street... Time are not good right now...

In short the days of getting 600 hours and getting a job with the regionals are LONG gone... That era that you are so familiar with (1996-2000) was the exception and not the rule... That type of hiring will probably never return to the industry... So if you are getting into the industry, you'd better be prepared for a much slower progression than you may have seen in the past... Many pilots on this board Flight Instructed until they had 2,500-3,000+ hours... flew at the Regionals until they had 6,000-7,000+ hours before ever getting to the Majors... and now at the majors, they are unemployed... There are also A LOT of pilots now making careers at the Regionals.... Some by their own choosing, some not...

When I would help people decide on if they should take a particular job or not, I always asked then "Would you be happy staying there for 10 years?" and they would say "well I only plan to stay 2 years to build experience" Well my point was, no one can predict the future... and you never know what might happen to stop everything in its tracks (ie. September 11, Bad Economy, etc...) You always have to try to plan ahead for the unknown...

This isn't an easy industry... it may look like cake and glamour from the outside, it is anything but... Just ask the guys who have worked their a$$es of for many years as a CFI and Regional pilot only to reach their goal at a Major and now find themselves in the unemployment line... It just isn't fair.... but then again, life isn't fair...

If I were you, I would plan the following progression, if it happens faster, great... if not at least you knew in advance...

If your goal is Corporate:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours minimum)
Fly Charter for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 3,500+ hours min.)
Then you will be marketable for a decent Corporate job....

If your goal is the Majors:

Flight Instruct for at least 2 years (until you have at least 1,500 hours)
Fly at the Regionals for at least 4-5 years (until you have at least 4,000-5,000 hours min)
And hopefully by that time (7-8 years Minimum) the Majors will starting to be hiring with some regularity that will cause some movement in the industry... if not... You will see MANY pilots making careers at the Regionals...

I don't mean to discourage you in any way, but just want you to have more realistic expectations....

I hope this helps...

Good Luck!

Falcon Capt.

 

[banned username 2]

FalconCapt, The "Corporate" job in the Bonanza was just as you described. Still, it was a nice occasional break from touch & gos for an 800 hour CFI.

Archer, Sorry to burst your bubble, but if instructing sounds tedious to you when you have twenty-something hours I doubt you will be going "pro". Stick to flying on the weekends for fun.

The hour requirements stated above are usually driven by two things-insurance and the job market. Right now a buzillion hours and every type rating in the book wont get you a job at Delta, United, American, etc. Two years ago people were getting these jobs with less than 3000 hours. The same kind of thing goes across the board. If there are few pilots looking for jobs you may find a corporate dream job with 1500 hours or get on with a top of the line regional with under 1,000. When the market is flooded with very experienced pilots the minimums go up, and even then competition is tight.

I'm sorry if the thought of having to build experience beyond 800 or so hours gets you down, or if you cringe at the thought of having to be a CFI, but that is how this profession works.
If you do choose to pursue aviation as a profession, PLEASE dont fall into the trap of thinking that once you have a few hundered hours and a commercial certificate you are ready for anything.
The best pilots are the ones who know they are not the best yet, no matter how fat the logbook is.

Good Luck

FlyWrite... Excellent post, and I couldn't agree more....

I agree, if Archer is already "dreading" the steps to an Aviation Career the you are dead on saying he might be happier in another field and fly for fun on the weekends...

Archer... again I don't mean to discourage... but just because you love to go up and fly doesn't mean you'll love an Aviation Career... Flying around in your Archer for fun is TOTALLY different than flying the line at an airline or flying Corporate...

Good Luck!

 

[airbaker]

Falcon Capt,

You couldn't have laid it out more succinctly; I wholeheartedly agreed with your assessment of the industry at present. I think the "irrational exuberance" of the tech-boom has manifested in the aspirations of some newcomers.
*Archer, this isn't meant to be a put-down to you. But it would be unfair to you, or anyone else new to the industry, to try to paint it with a different brush.

Things will get better... it's just a question of time.

Good Luck to all of us!

 

[TAG2]

Paying your dues

Archer,

It is called "paying your dues", like it or not, that is the way it is. That is what 99% of us have had to do. Instructing is just the start of it besides the tremendous benefits you would recieve while doing it. You need to get some good PIC time. By putting you into the right seat of anything at 800 hours will not be doing you any favors. You will most likely sit there for longer than you care to think and become discouraged.

If this is what you really want to do for a living, you will most likely have to take the same path that most of us had to. That is just the way it is.

Good luck to you, whatever you decide to do.

 

[Archer]

I see your points. And the more I read about this, the more I start to understand how things work in professional aviation.

I just don't really see myself as a CFI. I would rather not be a CFI at all, and go the "unconventional" way, be it harder or not, than be a bad CFI, waste student's money and risk theirs and others' lives.

I have no experience at all (30 hours, many of the people on this board don't even bother counting below 100 hour increments), yet, from logic, and what I experience during my flight lessons, I cad deduce that being a CFI is good for a while, and it helps in many ways to improve a pilot, especially in the basics, but after a while, I think it become redundant, and the pilot stops advancing in many ways.

I see a charter/air-taxi...or any similar job that would hire at say 6 or 700 hours, to be a lot more beneficial than continuing being a CFI past that total time. It is different, and more like what Corporate/Regional flying than instructing.

So all I'm saying is, to me, a CFI is a master pilot, an almost perfect pilot. That's how a CFI should be in my eyes at least. And it takes a lot of character, and I think not everyone is born to be a CFI. And it saddens me that going through the "CFI job" is an "hour-building obligation" for regional/major/corporate pilots...because I doubt all of these people who have CFIs like being CFIs...they probably can't wait to get out of there and go fly the "real job" and thus do a bad job instructing...

I don't know yet if I could ever be a CFI, a real one that is. I could probably get the Certificate...but that doesn't mean much. It's just a piece of paper...the CFI has to "feel" like being a CFI, be enthusiastic.

I think sightseeing tours of some kind would be better for me, though hopefully they won't be restricted to 25nm...

or any type of low time charter job...just to get started, be happy and build those hours for something bigger and greater...

Archer