Call for Release

[goose32]

What is the definition of that? I've been to airports that allow me to give them an estimated wheels up time and they then call and come back with either a" no delay", say to expect my given estimated wheels up time, or say a there's a delay and give an actual wheels up time. all this before even leaving the gate. then there are others that say call 5min prior to taxi and when you let them know you are 5 prior they call and get a time.
I ask all this because I just went to an airport where the controller refused to call for a time until we actually were taxiing even though we gave him and could have met our estimated wheels up which we notified him of 30 minutes prior. When he finally called we got a delay and had to sit for 25 minutes. So what does "call for release" really mean? Thank you.

 

[damnflyboy]

Yes! I would love to know this.

 

[Flyin2low]

Welcome to OAJ and the wrath of ILM app.

 

[goose32]

I didn't have this isue at OAJ

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

Can you give an example of origin and destination. Your obviously not talking about EDCT's so more then likely you are encountering an ESP release which is En-trail Spacing. At ORD we get this alot for MSP filed north, Detroit, and then into the New York airports. We don't coordinate a release until you are taxing because we have to call flow control at the center and get the wheels up time and they usually want to know how soon you can be ready. Usually they are only a couple of minute delays but I've seem some on the lengthier side. The over all goal is to find a gap in the overhead stream on more of the congested routes.

 

[goose32]

MOB-ATL. Yeah, not talking about EDCTs. Seems most other locations going into ATL allow us to give them an estimated wheels up time and they simply call to get a time with that. I am curious why MOB refused to and what the procedure is if any. Thanks

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

I would guess we are talking about an ESP like I listed before. Due to the proximity of ATL from Mobile I would guess it is because there is a lot less wiggle room on such a quick flight. Perhaps why maybe they wouldn't call for the release time knowing that the center wouldn't lock down a time until they knew you could hit it because of other flights coming off of lets say Huntsville etc.. etc.. We never call and get releases until the aircraft is taxiing but some other airports maybe different. Like I said I would anticipate the cause being strictly the lack of airspace to deal with to get you on your route and in the overhead stream. The closer you are the more planes there are to factor in, the further out you are the more flexible the time may be.

 

[glasspilot]

The closer you are the more planes there are to factor in, the further out you are the more flexible the time may be.

I get further away equals more flexibility. But "the closer you are the more planes there are to factor in" I must disagree with. If you draw a smaller circle between departure and destination then there are obviously fewer planes in that smaller circle...not more.

The only issue I could see would be that of time and finding a gap. TEC should help on the shortest of the short city pairs to help find that gap.

To the OP: did you put "request TEC" in the remarks?

 

[goose32]

I would guess we are talking about an ESP like I listed before. Due to the proximity of ATL from Mobile I would guess it is because there is a lot less wiggle room on such a quick flight. Perhaps why maybe they wouldn't call for the release time knowing that the center wouldn't lock down a time until they knew you could hit it because of other flights coming off of lets say Huntsville etc.. etc.. We never call and get releases until the aircraft is taxiing but some other airports maybe different. Like I said I would anticipate the cause being strictly the lack of airspace to deal with to get you on your route and in the overhead stream. The closer you are the more planes there are to factor in, the further out you are the more flexible the time may be.

I have had airports as close or closer to ATL just take an estimated wheels time. I understand what you're saying, but does the decision to wait or get an expected wheels up from the crew up to the discretion of the controller? I would think if the crew gave a time and couldn't meet it, that it would be their fault and they'd have to deal with any further delay. That being said, why would a controller care if they don't make the time? He/she isn't the one sitting with the added delay if any, so why not call with what the crew gives as an EWU every time?

 

[goose32]

I get further away equals more flexibility. But "the closer you are the more planes there are to factor in" I must disagree with. If you draw a smaller circle between departure and destination then there are obviously fewer planes in that smaller circle...not more.

The only issue I could see would be that of time and finding a gap. TEC should help on the shortest of the short city pairs to help find that gap.

To the OP: did you put "request TEC" in the remarks?

what's a TEC?

 

[glasspilot]

Tower Enroute Control. It keeps you out of centers airspace so it's a big level of airspace you don't need a "gap" for.

You have to file at 10K or below but you can get off the ground sooner many times and have much more direct routing. I use it a bunch in the NY area and out west too occasionally.

 

[goose32]

Tower Enroute Control. It keeps you out of centers airspace so it's a big level of airspace you don't need a "gap" for.

You have to file at 10K or below but you can get off the ground sooner many times and have much more direct routing. I use it a bunch in the NY area and out west too occasionally.

This was a part 121 operated flight, so I did not file the fp. Good to know though. At a nearby airport where filed is 10k or less I might be able to request it with clearance delivery.

 

[SSDD]

Sorry to pick on you, but this is a problem I see with pilots today...a part 121 captain who's never heard of TEC. You've obviously passed all the checkrides, but that quick ride to the top leaves a lot of gaps in the knowledge base.

 

[goose32]

Sorry to pick on you, but this is a problem I see with pilots today...a part 121 captain who's never heard of TEC. You've obviously passed all the checkrides, but that quick ride to the top leaves a lot of gaps in the knowledge base.

I've heard of it, but it was a long time ago. I don't claim to remember everything I have ever learned. I'm pretty sure I can't do a simple trigonometry problem today even though I made a B in high school Trig. Like most people, if it's not something I use daily or at least every once in a while I probably won't remember it too well. That's not to say a quick refresher won't spark my memory. I do understand your point and concern though.

So, I still haven't gotten an answer to the question. Is it up to a controller's discretion to wait for taxi and call for a release or go with an estimated wheels up?

 

[DLconnection]

I will try and explain this as simple as I can.
First off, these programs are designed to mitigate delays and congestion in the two places that they can happen. Either Enroute or actually at the airports themselves.
The airports themselves will generate whats called ground delay programs or EDCTs. These are those times that usually given to u during your clearance if a program was alreaaalready in effect. These times are funneled through the command center and will either be a +/- 5 program or a time with a call for release 15 min prior to that time.

Then there is the standard Call for Release programs that affect aircraft within a cetain radius of busy airports or airspace. We have several "static " release Airports that never change like ATL IAD ORD etc. Sometimes we'll get releases for airports that due to wx or other reasons require a call for release. To pilots. ...we have to call when u taxi or have a firm idea as to when we can get u airborne. We are hitting an airborne time ie when u tag up on radar, time for the center. We have a window of only a.min or.2 thus the reason for being exact.

One other thing ... in the summer months or during thunderstorm season. The center(s) that are impacted by weather to where certain routes are cuttoff will generate EDCTs that are almost always +/- 5 min. These programs are called AFPs or airspace flow programs. This is why u might sometimes see an EDCT to a small airport like ROA RDU or OMA

 

[goose32]

I will try and explain this as simple as I can.
First off, these programs are designed to mitigate delays and congestion in the two places that they can happen. Either Enroute or actually at the airports themselves.
The airports themselves will generate whats called ground delay programs or EDCTs. These are those times that usually given to u during your clearance if a program was alreaaalready in effect. These times are funneled through the command center and will either be a +/- 5 program or a time with a call for release 15 min prior to that time.

Then there is the standard Call for Release programs that affect aircraft within a cetain radius of busy airports or airspace. We have several "static " release Airports that never change like ATL IAD ORD etc. Sometimes we'll get releases for airports that due to wx or other reasons require a call for release. To pilots. ...we have to call when u taxi or have a firm idea as to when we can get u airborne. We are hitting an airborne time ie when u tag up on radar, time for the center. We have a window of only a.min or.2 thus the reason for being exact.

One other thing ... in the summer months or during thunderstorm season. The center(s) that are impacted by weather to where certain routes are cuttoff will generate EDCTs that are almost always +/- 5 min. These programs are called AFPs or airspace flow programs. This is why u might sometimes see an EDCT to a small airport like ROA RDU or OMA

Excellent post and thanks for the insight. I hate to keep asking what I think is the same question, but is the time to "call" for the release up to the controllers discretion? You say you can call when you can get a "firm idea" of when we can get airborne. Is that not what you get when a Pilot calls you and gives an estimated wheels up time? In my experience, some controllers will call with the time I give them and others wait until a 5 prior to push call or actually taxiing. All scenarios under the same call for release to ATL.

 

[DLconnection]

Call it a technique as to how its done. The point is that we need to hit a time within a few minutes. I like the call for pushbacks at times when we might have one of those EDCT/Call for release 15 min prior programs
Its also helpful when we are preplanning and trying to get ahead of.the game for an outbound departure push with numerous aircraft that need.to be sequenced.
Sometimes a TMU (traffic management ) will call "schedule " these times well in advance so that we have them for the pilots when they call. If it needs to be changed..
so what they call again.to.get another.
another reason for.the.call might be to catch an aircraft at the gate before the bad news of some.major delay or.something. ground stop etch

Again. All technique.

 

[goose32]

I'm slowly understanding how the "call for release" works. So how difficult is it to have to call again? I have been in a situation where we had an unexpected delay, i.e. passenger boarding issue or maybe late fueler and had to ask for a few minute extension. Is it a hassle to do so and is that why some controllers wont bother until you are actually moving?
Also, is there any place to read about how these Air Traffic flow/spacing programs work? Anyone can look in a FAR/AIM and pretty much see how things work on a Pilot's end. Any publications for how ATC works? Thanks again.

 

[DLconnection]

I'm sure that there are some sort of publications out there, but what id recommend is touring a busy ATC facility. From there u can see and learn how they run and manage their traffic. See how volume, weather and other factors play in how the traffic is run.

I also highly recommend visiting the Tracon or artcc that handles the airports that you fly out of the most. You can learn a lot from this and can better plan your flights.

Know that your company dispatchers(if 121) tend to keep in touch with the system command centers during times of big delays and edct programs. They seem to get information before we do believe it or not. The company can actually wheel and deal these times believe it or not with other company flights in the area to decide which flights would better match the airlines schedule requirements. Example. One airplane might have a edct of 1200 z going to EWR from RDU. At the same time a company flight might be broken in RIC also going to EWR with a 1115 time. The company can swap these times to accommodate the flight schedule integrity.

 

[sinkrate]

Call it a technique as to how its done. The point is that we need to hit a time within a few minutes. I like the call for pushbacks at times when we might have one of those EDCT/Call for release 15 min prior programs
Its also helpful when we are preplanning and trying to get ahead of.the game for an outbound departure push with numerous aircraft that need.to be sequenced.
Sometimes a TMU (traffic management ) will call "schedule " these times well in advance so that we have them for the pilots when they call. If it needs to be changed..
so what they call again.to.get another.
another reason for.the.call might be to catch an aircraft at the gate before the bad news of some.major delay or.something. ground stop etch

Again. All technique.

Warning - RANT ON

This is all good stuff and I have understood the program for years. Had no problems with it for many years. But in recent years ....TMU and local facilities at class D airports are completely blind to our problem. And from your answer, respectfully - you are too.

For a lot of aircraft if the destination is short flight flight and needs an alternate we get trapped in a fuel problem. The heavier the payload the worse the problem. By reg I must have X thousand pounds of fuel on board at gear up, but if I am just a little bit over that I will be overweight for landing. You must manage your taxi fuel very tightly. Again - I did this for many years with no problems.

Sooo.....when the flight is full and the weather lousy I must make a decision at the gate. To make room for more taxi fuel I must bump passengers - usually the jumpseaters and non revs - and maybe a few revenue passengers too. So I call delivery and ask them about flow programs. They tell me none are in effect or they will call for release when we call for taxi, expect no more than a few minutes. We will fill all the seats and plan a maximum of a ten minute taxi. I will even call when we are starting engines and get the same reply.

When we call for taxi is when it gets ugly. They wait until then to give us the thirty minute delay. Now I have two options - shut down somewhere or return to the gate for more fuel. Big pain in the a** that is. But wait - the ramp is already occupied by a deplaning flight. So we want to shut down somewhere but the airport planners didn't build a pad big enough. Which taxi way do you want us to shut down on? We don't have any, we will keep you moving, Unable - we don't have the fuel for it. Return to the ramp. The little ramp is full.

All ATC had to do to avoid this conflict is communicate. As the original poster said - I can give you a hard time we will be ready. ATC can't plan ahead twenty minutes for a requested gear up time? They are planning 30 minutes ahead when they finally give me one so I know that is horse hockey.

For many years I had no problem negotitiating these things. The problem is not new. The people on the other end of the radio are though.

Call it a technique as to how its done

I agree, ATC needs to find the one they used before. It worked.

Rant off