CAL vs. DAL

[Ben Franklin]

The thread was going to happen sooner or later...


But really, where do you think one should work?


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[General Lee]

Probably more stability at CAL, but better uniforms at DL. Who knows? If we get away from USAir then things will be good, with or without a merger with NWA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[xanderman]

just so you know...

The thread was going to happen sooner or later...


But really, what do you think?


Sincerely,

B. Franklin

CAL will get totally smashed in competition with DAL. 'Cause there is too much overlap between US and DAL's routes structure. There is the Oberstar factor as well. Oh and don't forget that the creditor committee is FILLED with DAL friendlies. DAL will emerge as the consummate example of airline aviation. A real shiny treasure for the rest of us to TRY to mimic. The General told me so...:erm:

Andy

 

[General Lee]

CAL will get totally smashed in competition with DAL. 'Cause there is too much overlap between US and DAL's routes structure. There is the Oberstar factor as well. Oh and don't forget that the creditor committee is FILLED with DAL friendlies. DAL will emerge as the consummate example of airline aviation. A real shiny treasure for the rest of us to TRY to mimic. The General told me so...:erm:

Andy

Good one, and so true!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[xanderman]

...

Good one, and so true!!

Bye Bye--General Lee

...

 

[Pat Fabin]

I've gone on the record many times, simply stating that:

CAL SUX.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Better career progression at CAL (retirements and growth.) This equates to better pay over the long term.

Better pay rates and work rules at DAL (greenslips go above guarantee and at 1.5x normal pay rate -- including reserve. Override pay ...) This equates to better pay over the short term (year 1+2)

 

[Captain Overs]

DAL, even if they were liquidated.

 

[Whiskerbizkit]

DAL hands down.

 

[cal73cap]

CAL, Delta has no management team!

 

[kassel737]

Not enough retirements at DAL and not nearly as good management. CALby a long shot.

 

[a10hogplt]

General, i dont post here much.....but i couldnt resist this time...

dude, you have no life, quit drinking the damn delta Koolaid........Delta is pathetic, so just get over it....you are really pushing it.....give up posting on here and get a hobby.

 

[On Your Six]

General, i dont post here much.....but i couldnt resist this time...

dude, you have no life, quit drinking the dang delta Koolaid........Delta is pathetic, so just get over it....you are really pushing it.....give up posting on here and get a hobby.

Thanks for your great contribution, jacka$$. At least the General has an opinion and adds (or subtracts) to the debate. This is an information/opinion forum - right? What have you added to this debate? Nada. You can either ignore the General and his opinions (skip his posts) or voice your own on the subject at hand.


As for my opinion on this subject, both options would be good choices over the longer term despite CAL's poor starting salary/benefits. Delta after Chap 11 will be much stronger and have a much better outlook due to its international expansion and I highly doubt the US/DL merger will happen (primarily due to DOJ issues and overall debt capacity questions). A UAL/CAL merger still might happen and that could change the outlook on CAL hiring and career progression... You never know...

 

[pipe]

Probably more stability at CAL, but better uniforms at DL. Who knows? If we get away from USAir then things will be good, with or without a merger with NWA.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Please tell me you're kidding about the 1940's Royal Navy uniform.

PIPE

 

[calfo]

At least my uniform isn't double-breasted, and I can afford the other half of the stripes on my sleeves.

 

[CA1900]

I'd just like to thank whatever moron at Delta decided to put the seat trays in the armrests on the 757 exit rows. Talk about freaking uncomfortable.... grrrr.


(Thumbs-up on the LED reading lights, though.)

 

[Pat Fabin]

Uuuhu...our uniform goes back to the 1930's thank you very much.

When making a decision about going to a major you need to look at history, and make LONG-TERM decisions.

CAL has never been one of the desirable carriers to work for...they always had bottom-of-the-barrel wages and working conditions. The ONLY reason they are attractive right now is that the other majors have given so much in concessions and they've been one of the few places hiring. While the upgrade progressions are certainly impressive, they won't last forever. Back in 2000, we had 2 year Captains at DAL...things change.

CAL has never once stood up for themselves and led the industry anywhere...I doubt their track record will be much different come time for Section 6 negotiation.

If you like flying for a pilot group with a large scab contingent...go to CAL.

Absent of payrates, our pilot contract is light-years better than CAL and is probably the best legacy contract out there. I'm sure when it comes time, we'll leap frog CAL and be back near the top of the pax. carrier business. Heck, we took a 33% paycut and STILL paid more than CAL. It wasn't until our BK that we fell below.

As for management, CAL has certainly been able to weather the storms over the last few years very well, and will probably continue to do so. I do, however, believe the new management at DAL to be just as capeable and will do great things with our superior network. Our new long-haul domestic product is better than anyone's out their with dual class leather seats, TVs in every seat, new food and drinks, etc. Our long-haul product with the lie-flat seats is constantly evolving. DAL is truly re-investing in the product. CAL still offers the same old average thing they did in the mid 90s. And whats up with that turkey "sub" thats no bigger than my fist?

CAL has only about 12% heavy aircraft while Delta's fleet is 25% heavy aircraft...2.5 times as many heavy airplanes as CAL. DALs pilot group is currently only about 50% larger than CALs.... bottom line there are far more opportunities to fly heavy aircraft at DAL (and thus better pay and working conditions) than CAL. As Delta's focus points more towards long-haul international, this will certainly tilt the scales more in DAL's favor.

For a junior guy, Delta's fleet is more enjoyable to fly. On the 73NG and MD88 fleet, each plane is identically equipped...no need to switch between the 737-3/5/7/8/9.

Have you seen CALs training center vs. DALs? Pretty self-explanatory there.

Delta's PBS system is far superior to CALs (our PBS guy is always hearing from the CAL rep about how they are unhappy with what they have).

I have many friends that went straight from ExpressJet to CAL and most of them say its an anti-climactic experience.. basically ExpressJet with different airplanes. I guess that says a lot for XJT, but not so much for CAL.

We've fallen pretty far from where we were, but DAL is still a first-rate, very organized, very structured company where people are treated as professionals and people generally do a great job.

These are, of course, my opinions but CAL has always been a 2nd tier major and I don't see anything they've done lately that makes me think any different other than they pay more than us....for now.

 

[propjob27]

CAL has never been one of the desirable carriers to work for...they always had bottom-of-the-barrel wages and working conditions. The ONLY reason they are attractive right now is that the other majors have given so much in concessions and they've been one of the few places hiring.

The exact same thing could be said about FedEX and UPS, though I doubt there are alot of guys who regret going to work for those 2 outfits.

I'd take CAL over DAL. Having said that, a guy/gal would have to be pretty da m n lucky to have offers from both at the same time in order to have this choice in the 1st place.

 

[fatboyplt]

If one does not have a job. I would think the first to hire you..

Birdman
BTV

 

[abe44]

Personally, I'd hold out for Fed Ex or UPS.

Strive for the best...don't sell yourself (and your career) short!

A job at one of the above carriers will be better, over a career, than any pax carrier (including SWA...the best of the pax carriers right now.)

Just my opinion,

Abe

 

[catIIIc]

Uuuhu...our uniform goes back to the 1930's thank you very much.

When making a decision about going to a major you need to look at history, and make LONG-TERM decisions.

CAL has never been one of the desirable carriers to work for...they always had bottom-of-the-barrel wages and working conditions. The ONLY reason they are attractive right now is that the other majors have given so much in concessions and they've been one of the few places hiring. While the upgrade progressions are certainly impressive, they won't last forever. Back in 2000, we had 2 year Captains at DAL...things change.

CAL has never once stood up for themselves and led the industry anywhere...I doubt their track record will be much different come time for Section 6 negotiation.

If you like flying for a pilot group with a large scab contingent...go to CAL.

Absent of payrates, our pilot contract is light-years better than CAL and is probably the best legacy contract out there. I'm sure when it comes time, we'll leap frog CAL and be back near the top of the pax. carrier business. Heck, we took a 33% paycut and STILL paid more than CAL. It wasn't until our BK that we fell below.

As for management, CAL has certainly been able to weather the storms over the last few years very well, and will probably continue to do so. I do, however, believe the new management at DAL to be just as capeable and will do great things with our superior network. Our new long-haul domestic product is better than anyone's out their with dual class leather seats, TVs in every seat, new food and drinks, etc. Our long-haul product with the lie-flat seats is constantly evolving. DAL is truly re-investing in the product. CAL still offers the same old average thing they did in the mid 90s. And whats up with that turkey "sub" thats no bigger than my fist?

CAL has only about 12% heavy aircraft while Delta's fleet is 25% heavy aircraft...2.5 times as many heavy airplanes as CAL. DALs pilot group is currently only about 50% larger than CALs.... bottom line there are far more opportunities to fly heavy aircraft at DAL (and thus better pay and working conditions) than CAL. As Delta's focus points more towards long-haul international, this will certainly tilt the scales more in DAL's favor.

For a junior guy, Delta's fleet is more enjoyable to fly. On the 73NG and MD88 fleet, each plane is identically equipped...no need to switch between the 737-3/5/7/8/9.

Have you seen CALs training center vs. DALs? Pretty self-explanatory there.

Delta's PBS system is far superior to CALs (our PBS guy is always hearing from the CAL rep about how they are unhappy with what they have).

I have many friends that went straight from ExpressJet to CAL and most of them say its an anti-climactic experience.. basically ExpressJet with different airplanes. I guess that says a lot for XJT, but not so much for CAL.

We've fallen pretty far from where we were, but DAL is still a first-rate, very organized, very structured company where people are treated as professionals and people generally do a great job.

These are, of course, my opinions but CAL has always been a 2nd tier major and I don't see anything they've done lately that makes me think any different other than they pay more than us....for now.

Wow did a CAL guy f@^k your wife?

 

[CommuterHell]

If hired at DAL, what would be the chances of being based in NYC?

 

[General Lee]

If hired at DAL, what would be the chances of being based in NYC?

Very very good. NYC MD88 is the junior plane.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[zonker]

Uuuhu...our uniform goes back to the 1930's thank you very much.

When making a decision about going to a major you need to look at history, and make LONG-TERM decisions.

CAL has never been one of the desirable carriers to work for...they always had bottom-of-the-barrel wages and working conditions. The ONLY reason they are attractive right now is that the other majors have given so much in concessions and they've been one of the few places hiring. While the upgrade progressions are certainly impressive, they won't last forever. Back in 2000, we had 2 year Captains at DAL...things change.

CAL has never once stood up for themselves and led the industry anywhere...I doubt their track record will be much different come time for Section 6 negotiation.

If you like flying for a pilot group with a large scab contingent...go to CAL.

Absent of payrates, our pilot contract is light-years better than CAL and is probably the best legacy contract out there. I'm sure when it comes time, we'll leap frog CAL and be back near the top of the pax. carrier business. Heck, we took a 33% paycut and STILL paid more than CAL. It wasn't until our BK that we fell below.

As for management, CAL has certainly been able to weather the storms over the last few years very well, and will probably continue to do so. I do, however, believe the new management at DAL to be just as capeable and will do great things with our superior network. Our new long-haul domestic product is better than anyone's out their with dual class leather seats, TVs in every seat, new food and drinks, etc. Our long-haul product with the lie-flat seats is constantly evolving. DAL is truly re-investing in the product. CAL still offers the same old average thing they did in the mid 90s. And whats up with that turkey "sub" thats no bigger than my fist?

CAL has only about 12% heavy aircraft while Delta's fleet is 25% heavy aircraft...2.5 times as many heavy airplanes as CAL. DALs pilot group is currently only about 50% larger than CALs.... bottom line there are far more opportunities to fly heavy aircraft at DAL (and thus better pay and working conditions) than CAL. As Delta's focus points more towards long-haul international, this will certainly tilt the scales more in DAL's favor.

For a junior guy, Delta's fleet is more enjoyable to fly. On the 73NG and MD88 fleet, each plane is identically equipped...no need to switch between the 737-3/5/7/8/9.

Have you seen CALs training center vs. DALs? Pretty self-explanatory there.

Delta's PBS system is far superior to CALs (our PBS guy is always hearing from the CAL rep about how they are unhappy with what they have).

I have many friends that went straight from ExpressJet to CAL and most of them say its an anti-climactic experience.. basically ExpressJet with different airplanes. I guess that says a lot for XJT, but not so much for CAL.

We've fallen pretty far from where we were, but DAL is still a first-rate, very organized, very structured company where people are treated as professionals and people generally do a great job.

These are, of course, my opinions but CAL has always been a 2nd tier major and I don't see anything they've done lately that makes me think any different other than they pay more than us....for now.

Your opinions are those of a babbling moron.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Uuuhu...our uniform goes back to the 1930's thank you very much.

These are, of course, my opinions but CAL has always been a 2nd tier major and I don't see anything they've done lately that makes me think any different other than they pay more than us....for now.

I respectfully disagree. I think you are going to find that the Continental pilot group of today is vastly different of years past. I believe with all the recent infusion of new hires combined with healthy attrition and many who are extremely dissatisfied with our current contract you are going to be very surprised at what our pilot group achieves in Contract 08.

I think the days of a second rate carrier are long gone here at CAL. We have new strong leadership at CAL ALPA and a pilot group that isn't afraid of their own shadow and ready to set the bar higher not just for ourselves but for the whole industry.

One question for you if the CAL of today resembled anything close to your opinion why would have the ALPA BOD elected one of our own to the highest position in ALPA?

To answer the poster of this threads question DAL or CAL? My answer, it's a roll of the dice could go either way at CAL or DAL.

 

[catIIIc]

I respectfully disagree. I think you are going to find that the Continental pilot group of today is vastly different of years past. I believe with all the recent infusion of new hires combined with healthy attrition and many who are extremely dissatisfied with our current contract you are going to be very surprised at what our pilot group achieves in Contract 08.

I think the days of a second rate carrier are long gone hear at CAL. We have new strong leadership at CAL ALPA and a pilot group that isn't afraid of their own shadow and ready to set the bar higher not just for ourselves but for the whole industry.

One question for you if the CAL of today resembled anything close to your opinion why would have the ALPA BOD elected one of our own to the highest position in ALPA?

To answer the poster of this threads question DAL or CAL? My answer it is a roll of the dice could go either way at CAL or DAL.

My sentiments exactly, we have hired almost 1000 guys since we started in 05 and the attitude is nothing what Pat described. We have a lot of work to do in 08 just like everyone of the legacy carriers that have expirienced concessionary contracts, but our Scope clause is second to none and everything else will be made better.

 

[HAZ-MAT]

You could probably be home a little more if you were able to bid the Shuttle too. Correct General Lee?
:beer:

 

[zonker]

My sentiments exactly, we have hired almost 1000 guys since we started in 05 and the attitude is nothing what Pat described. We have a lot of work to do in 08 just like everyone of the legacy carriers that have expirienced concessionary contracts, but our Scope clause is second to none and everything else will be made better.

Yea PAT, How's that SCOPE CLAUSE treating you?

 

[Palomino]

Yea PAT, How's that SCOPE CLAUSE treating you?

ouch. that probably stings a bit.

 

[Uniform Shop]

CAL still offers the same old average thing they did in the mid 90s.

Since you know so much about the "old" CAL I figured I would let you in on what our customers think of us now.

Best Airline for Flights to Western Europe
Executive Travel Magazine's 2004 Best in Executive Travel Awards (September 2004)
Best Airline for Flights to Mexico
Executive Travel Magazine's 2004 Best in Executive Travel Awards (September 2004)
2005 Best Airline Alliance – SkyTeam
Global Traveler Magazine
No. 1 U.S.-based Airline
Nikkei Business Magazine survey (December 2003)
Best Transatlantic Airline
2001 OAG Airline of the Year Awards (February 2001)
Top International Airline
National Airline Quality Rating Study (April 2000)
Best Foreign-flag Carrier to North America
Nikkei Business Magazine survey (December 1999)
Top Airline to North America
Travel Trade Gazette Europa (March 1999)
BusinessFirst Premium Cabin

Best Executive/Business Class
OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2003, 2004, 2005, 2006)
World's Leading Business Class Airline and North America's Leading Business Class Airline
2005 World Travel Awards
Best Business Class among U.S. airlines, scoring 23 out of 25 stars for amenities and service
Business Traveler (September 2003)
Best Business Class among U.S. airlines, scoring 23 out of 25 stars for amenities and service
Business Traveler (September 03)
Best Trans-Atlantic and Trans-Pacific Business Class among U.S. airlines
Conde Nast Traveler (October 2002, October 2005)
Best Short Haul Executive/Business Class
2001 OAG Airline of the Year Awards (February 2001)
Best Long Haul Executive/Business Class
2001 OAG Airline of the Year Awards (February 2001)
Best U.S. Airline for Business Travel
SmartMoney (February 2000)
Best Business Class among U.S. airlines; 14 of 16 stars for seats, service, food and entertainment
Wall Street Journal, "Coffee, Tea or Massage" (November 6, 1998)
Workplace, Management & Operations

Airline of the Year
OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2001, 2004, 2005)
Best Airline Based in North America
OAG Airline of the Year Awards (2001, 2004, 2005, 2006)
Best North/South America Airline
Irish Travel Trade Annual Awards (January 2005)
No. 45 Most Admired Global Company
FORTUNE magazine (March 2003)
No. 1 Most Admired Airline
FORTUNE magazine (March 2006)
No. 2 Most Admired U.S. Airline
FORTUNE magazine (March 2004)
No. 2 Most Admired Global Airline
FORTUNE magazine (March 2003, March 2006)
100 Best Companies to Work For
FORTUNE magazine (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004)
Top U.S. Network Carrier
Zagat's 2005 U.S. Airline Survey and 2005 International Airline Survey
Most Opportunities for Hispanics
Hispanic magazine (January/February 2004, January/February 2005)
George Bush Intercontinental Terminal E: "Best Airport Project of 2004"
Texas Construction magazine (December 2004)
Corporate Diversity Honor Roll
Latin Business Magazine (Summer/Fall 2004)
Training Top 100
Training Magazine (February 2004)
Airline of the Year
Air Transport World (1996, 2001)
No. 1 On-time Performance in 2000
U.S. Department of Transportation
No. 1 Best Managed U.S-based Global Airline
Aviation Week & Space Technology (June 2001)
"Best Airline in the U.S."
FORTUNE magazine (December 1999)

Customer Service & Marketing

No. 1 in Customer Satisfaction
Frequent Flyer/J.D. Power & Associates (May 2000), for short
and long distance flights
No. 1 in Customer Satisfaction
Frequent Flyer/J.D. Power & Associates (June 2006), Among Traditional Network Carriers in North America
No. 1 in Customer Service
SmartMoney Customer Service Awards (July 2001)
No. 1 Web site
Forrester PowerRankings (August 2000); NPD New Media
Services for easy navigation and organization of info.
(August 2000); Freddie Awards from InsideFlyer (April 2001)
OnePass: Best Frequent Flyer Program
Laptop Magazine's Editor's Choice Awards (October 2004)
Best Frequent Flyer Program – Domestic
Executive Travel Magazine's 2004 Best in Executive Travel Awards (September 2004)
No. 1 Airline Innovator of Info. Technology and
No. 2 out of 500 companies
InformationWeek 500 List (December 2001)
'Extra Mile' Award for creating an innovative solution for OnePass reward redemption
Budget Travel (October 2005)
Best Frequent Flyer Program - Long Haul
Travelchannel (February 2004)
Best Frequent Flyer Program
OAG Airline of the Year Awards (February 2001)
OnePass
Program of the Year
Best Elite-Level Program*
Best Award
InsideFlyer's Freddie Awards (April 2001)
*InsideFlyer's Freddie Awards (April 2001, April 2002)
Best Ground Services Long Haul
Travelchannel (April 2004)
No. 1 in Customer Loyalty
Brand Keys Survey, NY-based research firm
George Bush Intercontinental Terminal E: Best Airport Project of 2004
Texas Construction magazine (December 2004)
George Bush Intercontinental Terminal E: "Best Airport Restaurant Design"
Airport Revenue News Best Concessions Poll (2005)
Presidents Club – George Bush Intercontinental Terminal E: Priority Pass Lounge of the Year
Priority Pass (2005, 2006)
Liberty International Terminal C
No. 1 New York City-area Airport, Best Gate Experience, Best Concessions
Port Authority of New York and New Jersey customersurvey (2002)
Best Concession Design, Best Customer Service, Best Concessions Management Team, Most Unique Services and Best Overall Concession Program
Airport Revenue News Best Concessions Poll (2005)
Liberty International Terminal C
No. 1 New York City-area Airport
Best Gate Experience
Best Concessions
Port Authority of New York and New Jersey customer survey (2002)
Liberty International Terminal C
Best Concession Program Design
Best Overall Concession Program
Most Unique Services
Airport Revenue News Best Concessions Poll (2004)
Liberty International Terminal C
Best Retail/Specialty Program
Airport Council International-North America (May 2002)
2002 Business in the Arts Award
Business Community for the Arts/Forbes (October 200