C17 Totalled in Bagram

[RampFreeze]

To bring this back on target and info-only for the civilian-only guys who are curious:

One thing a lot of civilian guys may not realize is that the USAF max crew duty day for big airplanes (C-5, C-17, KC-10, KC-135, etc.) is 24 hours with one extra pilot. (waived up to 26 hours just after 9/11) There is no schedule, you usually sit on alert for a day or so (This is just like reserve with a 30 minute call-out - Rarely do we know our schedule in advance and get the opportunity to try and get your body on the right circadian rhythm for the mission) Just as you are getting ready to go to sleep in your tent (at say 11PM body clock time) you get alerted (you are now a "fresh" crew), and then routinely end up flying a 24 hour day into extremely dangerous environments (oh yes, probably air refueling on the way) In all my years of USAF/AMC flying, I've always thought that the most dangerous thing done is the routine use of 24 hour duty days. (Definitely the norm rather than the exception in the strat airlift world) Remember the statistic that the judgment/cognitive abilities of someone who's been awake for 24 hours is the same as having a Blood Alcohol Content of .10? I'd rather fly into a high threat zone after a good nights sleep (in my own room/not 4 to a room/15 to a tent, etc.), 8 hours into my duty day rather than fly a "milkrun" 24 hour day, day after day after day with no break. After 9/11, how many guys have flown a 7 day trip, only slept 4 times while you were on the road, came back home for 12 hours and then went back out to "wash, rinse, repeat"? (I can already see the hands going up...)

No, I'm not looking for a "poor little boy" or a pat on the back. (I'm not flying in the strat air world right now and have nothing to personally complain about. I see my kids daily and they even recognize me vs. not knowing who I was for a year+ after 9/11) The country is at war and it is our duty to suck it up and make the mission happen. Most crews will tell you to a person that they are honored to do it. (it's not nearly as dangerous as patrolling the Baghdad streets dodging IEDs - those guys are the true heroes) You've got to "surge" during wartime and we all realize that. (Interesting statisitc: WWII went from Dec 1941-Aug 1945=44 months; Sept 2001-Aug 2005=47 months)

Just throwing this nugget out there as a data point for reference next time you are crying about the concessions in your latest contract...

 

[viper548]

Rampfreeze,
Good post, but you forgot that when these crews are on Bravo alert, it's a 48 hour shift, which was waived to 5 days in a row after 9/11. Typical reserve for an airline is a 12 hr shift. After the 48 hr reserve shift, you get 12hrs off then back on for another 48.

 

[Huggyu2]

At this very minute, I'm sitting at the C-5 stage desk in LERT, and I see and talk to the C-5 crews every single day. I've sat in on their intel and tactics briefs. Even though the C-5 flow is fairly light right now, I have been here when it was a nightmare.

For my part, I try to give them a few extra hours rest when I can, and provide them with whatever information and/or support they might need/request when at my station.

God bless ya, man. I was never an "airlifter", but I appreciate you folks that get the thankless jobs when you'd rather be in the cockpit. Good on ya.

 

[KC-10 Driver]

I appreciate your nice words, but this job isn't exactly thankless, at least not here in Rota. I volunteered for a short tour here (~40 days). It's actually a very good deal, and I enjoy both my job and my off time quite a bit. A summer month in a small Spanish resort town on the coast -- that's my thanks!

Now, the folks at Moron or Kuwait, that is a different story. Not nearly as good a deal. Those guys and gals deserve some thanks.

Afterthought: And, obviously, the biggest thank you goes to all the troops on the ground in country -- Iraq, Afghanistan & other nasty places.

 

[YGBSM]

My only hope is that management will see this as a wakeup call and make some improvements in how we are doing business, getting crews better rest, better support, and not pushing them to the limits now that we are a few years into this.

That says a lot right there.

 

[RAC396]

My only hope is that management will see this as a wakeup call and make some improvements in how we are doing business, getting crews better rest, better support, and not pushing them to the limits now that we are a few years into this.[/QUOTE]

I pray your hope will happen,however as long as "Management" is trying to get promoted,the crew force will alway suffer.I felw C130s in Vietnam,and C141s in desert storm,and absolutely nothing has changed.Fly safe,and watch your SIX.

 

[PHX767]

An important point to remember is that civil flying does not have a "mission" as does mil aviation. If the crew is too fatigued, the wx is too cruddy, only 1/2 the runway is open then it is too risky. Not so in mil where somebody is depending on the load getting there, the gas passed, or the bombs on target.

Work rules and quality of life is why we all lament those contract concessions. It's not because we are wussies. No air medals for taking a chance with 200 of the traveling public in the back, or for having an onerous reserve policy.

To bring this back on target and info-only for the civilian-only guys who are curious:

One thing a lot of civilian guys may not realize is that the USAF max crew duty day for big airplanes (C-5, C-17, KC-10, KC-135, etc.) is 24 hours with one extra pilot.

And the civilian guys that you are enlightening would probably also like to know that the augmented USAF aircrews you are discussing can only fly the max duty day with an extra required crewmember for the equipment; i.e, an extra pilot, plus a loadmaster, flight engineer, boom operator as appropriate. Don't forget the little people!

 

[Kikuchiyo]

At the end of the Wing SE meeting here at CHS, the OG ripped into us for all the recent (mostly minor) incidents. He claimed that after some analysis, the incident crews were not too tired or too overworked. None of the incidents were at the end of the duty day, nor had the crews been flying loads of hours in their last 90 days.

Of course, there's a difference between tired and chronically fatigued. But the "leadership" will continue to push us until the next worse thing happens - losing a crew. Then they'll surely "wake up." Or not...

 

[Birdstrike]

We see the impacts of crews being stretched yet the numbers in the training pipelines are being reduced. What am I missing? What's the planning ratio used to resource crews to airframes? Whatever it is, seems like the problem could be solvable if there's a way to wangle more crews per airframe. If you open the pipeline...'believe they would come...and you'd get some relief. Ah, but personnel ceilings. Then let's reallocate some priorities...

 

[stonewall]

Management??

Is somebody trying to get rich off the backs of the workers? Do we need a union? Dude, as the AC, YOU are management. This isn't an airline you work at, even if it's part time. The "management" you complain about is different than the management at Delta...they have done what you have done.

If you're too tired to do the mission, pass it off to someone else. YOU are responsible for your crew, and don't hand me any bullsh** about "command pressure." There isn't anyone out there who can, with any intellectual honesty, claim the military forced them to fly when they were tired. You were offered the mission, and you ponied up. Good on ya...but when you taxi off the damn runway, don't bitch about it.

Look, I know it ain't easy and the pay sucks, but you don't do it for the pay. This isn't flame bait...but if you can't hack it, don't suit up.