C17 Totalled in Bagram

[Kikuchiyo]

YGBSM!!
Back to the thread:
Guys, are there no more middle managers in the field? We used to have Tanker Task Forces at the bigger bases, and detachments at the smaller, like Riyadh, Jedda, etc. Usually at least a major and a Senior NCO. When we got taken over by AMC a lot of us got sent to garden spots like Somalia to be the supervision on the gound and help the crews that transited the field. We helped a lot of crews with duty day and fatigue problems.

PHX767, The stages are set up at Ramstein, Qatar, Incirlik, and Manas (Bishkek, Kyrgystan). There's an Expeditionary Airlift Squadron (EAS) deployed to manage all 4 stages. There have been other locations too, but they've either closed or were only temporary. One of the C-17 Sq's deploys most of its people and splits them up among the bases. The CC and DO and "staff" are currently at Incirlik. Ramstein and Manas are being run by a couple Capt's (last time I went thru). Qatar has a Maj & a couple Capts & Lts. Plus duty Loadmasters to assist in tail-swapping cargo and other duties.

Now, before I get flamed by every CGO out there, I have a lot of respect for the Capt's that are runnning the stages - several of them right now are friends of mine. I've done it myself. (Yes, in the truest "been there" sense of this thread) But they can't always get what they need from a local base leadership that considers them minor tenants. I question the EAS' decision to move the leadership to Incirlik from Germany, where there's only a few crews and where they're out of touch with the larger ops locations.

When something bad goes down at an AOR location, like this incident in Bagram, we're supposed to call the EAS and our home squadron. The EAS is responsible for ops tasking and "care and feeding," but no sitting Sq CC is going to lay it on the line for a crew from a different Sq. The home unit is out of the loop, and while they still own us they can call TACC and the EAS on our behalf all day long and get stiff armed with no recourse. In the end, no one looks out for you except yourself.

Now, Deuce130 wanted solutions. Get rid of the EAS. Deploy stage manager and Tactics briefer teams IAW strat airlift doctrine. Task Stage leadership to be FGO's, no lower. This takes the politics of deployed Sq CC's out. It also decreases the deployment size, cause right now they're deploying among other things Sq Execs to process medals for the EAS staff itself (but not the crews). More solution: fly more channel (keeper) missions vice stages. Apparently, this is just starting to happen, hopefully it'll increase to obviate the need for an EAS at all. Lastly, go back to the way the AF sold the C-17 to Congress - the basic 3-man crew. This would decrease fatigue by putting us back on 16 hr days. And that would probably go a long way to decreasing the number of incidents like this we have, one way or another.

 

[Phrogboy]

Can I get an AMEN brothers...

Kikuchiyo hit the nail on the head. Channel missions is the preferalble answer and one that is probably viable with the current situation worldwide.

 

[Mamma]

I have to agree with it being a bad decision for the leadership to be holed up in Incirlik. They should be posted in Germany (the gateway where all crews enter the AOR). This way crews would see who the leadership is and the tone can be set for the next few weeks. Instead they sit in Turkey and babysit the Jackson guys and remain far removed from the rest of us. But alas, I am not king for a day.

 

[pkober]

Mamma,

Explain "babysit the Jackson guys".

 

[Flt 525]

What's a channel mission?

Please help an Army dude: what is a channel mission? By the way, not to make anyone mad, but after retirement I have worked as a contractor in the middle east. USAF personnel come to the site where I am/was and stay for only 90 days. It takes 30 days to train them and 30 days for them to process out and (yes, for real) get their Expeditionary Force medal(s). So we might get 30 days of "real" work out of them. I think a minimum of 6 months should be the norm. Just a gripe from an Army dude.

 

[Kikuchiyo]

pkober: The Jackson, MS, 172nd Airlift Wing finally got their C-17s, completing the transition from C-141s. Rather than get activated, they cut a deal with AMC to "help out" with airlift, while remaining unactivated Guard volunteers.

Part of the deal is that only they will fly their unit-assigned airplanes. This is different than how AMC normally operates a strategic airlift stage, by whichever crew is available flying whichever plane comes thru on the next mission. CHS crews fly McChord and McGuire plans regularly, and vice versa. In order to simplify the scheduling of them with their own airplanes, they go straight to Incirlik to operate from there for their full rotation, then straight home to swap out crews. I don't know how long they stay out (normal strat crews are on 2-week orders) as that too may have been part of the deal.

At Incirlik, crews get per diem and stay in normal billeting, versus the stages at Manas and Qatar where they're on field conditions. While many of the AD and Resv crews that keep going out to the stage (and have been for 4 years) would love to go to the 'Lik, the Jackson guys are filling most of the crew requirements there, so very few other crews get to. It's a sore subject in the C-17 community and is breeding very bad feelings for Jackson from everyone else.

Of course, if one wants to get hired there later, one does not speak ill of their ability to cut such a deal with AMC...

 

[Kikuchiyo]

Flt525:
I used the term channel missions in a not-technically correct way. I'm sure I'll get critiqued (in a friendly was, as is the manner of flightinfo...). I meant it to mean where a crew keeps the jet and doesn't hand it off to the next waiting crew, pony-express style.

 

[pkober]

Of course, if one wants to get hired there later, one does not speak ill of their ability to cut such a deal with AMC...

Excellent point.

No self respecting ANG unit would ever give up there airplanes. That's statement is an inside joke......

If the ANG is able to work that deal, than good on them. I certainly don't think they need to be babysat. I don't know any one in that unit but I can say with certainty that no ANG unit ever needs to be babysat.

We had the reverse happen to us during the war. All the AD left and all the slick Herc's in theater were ANG/AFRC. That has caused bad feelings to this day.

Good Luck.

CLAMBAKE

 

[Mamma]

Pkober,
I am sorry you took offense to the "babysit" comment. It was not meant to be derogatory. Jackson just came up on line with C-17s and were not combat tested as a unit. That leaves it to active duty and reserves to show them the ropes...hence "babysit"...if only for a short time. The deal they cut in the "lik" while impressive has caused a lot of animosity. I wish my Reserve bosses could have cut that deal, but not being from the land of Trent Lott, we could not. When my unit first flew over in Afghanistan and Iraq, we needed to be babysat for a little while while we learned the ropes and I am not ashamed to admit it. A bunch of airline folks with tons of hours but little time in the airframe and environment could lead to disaster if not shown the ropes the right way.
Now you, Pkober, on the other hand....I find it confusing that you can make the assertation that "I am certain no ANG unit needs to be babysat" while at the same time making the statement "I don't know anyone in that unit." It's nice to root for the home team, but you should once in awhile know who they are playing against. Thanks for coming out.

 

[pkober]

I don't have to know anyone in that unit to know that they don't need there hands held. If you're a reservist you don't need your hand held either. Helpful advice is always appreciated.

My last ,and forth, deployment to Iraq we had the wing commander speak to us. He is an AD Zoomie type O-6. He sat down in front of us and said " I know all you Guard guys have multiple tours under your belt, but it doesn't matter. Get with the active duty they know what's going on." Yeah, thanks Guy. You worry about disco belts and we'll worry about getting the mission done. The AD guys we were to get all the info from had never been in theater. Classic lack of understanding.

I hope your last comments about not knowing who we are playing against isn't implying I need to spend some time playing in the sandbox.

Stay safe

CLAMBAKE