C-20, C-32, C-37, C-40

[peter185]

I was just curious who flies these aircraft, I never see them given out in drops, do you have to serve a tour on the C-21 before flying these? Just curious.

 

[CCDiscoB]

What do you mean "drops?" Are you referring to UPT assignments?
You have to be an experienced AF heavy driver with a spotless record. It’s their “good deal.” Our good deal…the Thunderbirds.

 

[Yahtzee]

It all relative...

It’s their “good deal.” Our good deal…the Thunderbirds.

"Good Deal"... ...1) a figment of the imigination and term oftern used by AFPC to explain why you can't get a certain assignment.

CCDisco,

While the "89th" may be considered a good deal by of the unknowing masses (non-AF heavy dudes ), wearing blues and putting up with the most uptight Air Force base in the world is not a good deal for many. By the way, filing to KNSF is a much better deal than trying to file to KADW. Good luck getting a PPR on the AF side. In four years as a T-1 IP, I was never turned away by KNSF. The Navy side of Andrews will always take care of you, while trying to get a PPR on the AF side is like putting an oyster in a slot machine. (Dobbins and NAS Atlanta are the same way.)

Do the the Thunderbirds have to recruit pilots like the 89th? Yes, the 89th sends out recruiting teams trying to find guys to fly for them. And if it was a "good deal" why do they need to recruit?

To answer peter185's question:

No, you don't have to fly C-21s first, and if you are asking if these will ever be in SUPT T-1 assignment drops, the answer is "NO".

C-20 = G-IV
C-32 = 757-200
C-37 = G-V
C-40 = 737-700 (Navy replacement for their C-9s)

I have friends in both G-IV and G-Vs at Andrews. To apply to 89th, you need 2500 hours min and be a heavy IP.


Yahtz

 

[HueyPilot]

89th AW

Overall, I would *not* say the 89th is a good deal. In certain respects it might be...you get to fly very nice equipment, and get typed in some very marketable airframes. But that's about where it ends.

Wearing blues is about the least of your worries. Just think about the job...anytime you're flying a shiny airplane with pax who wear alot of stars (or are D.C. power brokers), your unit leadership is going to have a huge stick up their arse trying to impress them. That also goes for C-21s at Andrews and Scott. I'd say go fly C-21s, but avoid those two locations like the plague because again, you're going to have everyone micromanaging everything.

Dobbins is about the worst airfield I can think of for PPRs. I fly C-21s myself, and when I've called to get a PPR to bring in (or take out) a DV, I've had the following conversation with base ops:

ME: Hi, I need to get a PPR for a C-21 bringing in a code (DV).

MGE (Dobbins): Uhhh, is that for official business?

ME: Uh, yes...I'm bringing in Lt. General ____.

MGE: OK, let me get a number from you so I can call you back. I need to check with the airfield manager to approve this. We don't typically allow transient traffic into Dobbins. But I'll try to see if they will approve it.

ME: uh.....OK.(hangs up) *I* won't be the one explaining to the 3-star why he can't land at Dobbins.

Back to the 89th....I'd love to fly the airplanes. But I don't want the job. And most heavy drivers know it's too much of a hassle to really be worth it.

 

[C40_Pilot]

correct but not complete

I would agree that most AF pilots don't want to put up with the atmosphere at the 89th. Who wants to be one of 15 Co-pilots for 4 planes on the ramp.

I would also mention that the above information is correct but not complete. I think there is one "good deal" if flying one of these planes is your goal. I know because it happened to me. I was flying C-17's at the schoolhouse in Altus and was ready to get another AF assignment. I competed for and was chosen to fly the C-40B, the AF version, which is basically a Boeing Business Jet. Best of all worlds my duty location is Hickam AFB, HI. We have two planes here, the C-40B and the C-37. We support the PACAF and PACOM commanders. And even better, we don't fly in blues, our unit is small, and when I'm not flying I'm on the beach or camping or just living in Hawaii. And to top it off, the AF paid for my 737 Type rating in Seattle with Boeing.

There are some "good deals" all depending on what you consider a good deal is. I think I have one. Good luck...

 

[CCDiscoB]

C40_Pilot,

That is great to hear. I like hearing stories about guys getting rewarded after a "less than desirable assignment." There are few bases, stateside, that are worse than Altus.

My good deal after being a Tweet IP was an Eagle to Eglin. Although additional duties kept me from getting as much beach time as you're getting.

Now I'm going to take my F-15 type-rating to a Fortune 100 company and become a corporate pilot.

 

[Yahtzee]

Accurate, complete & honest

C40_Pilot,

Congrats on the 737 to Hickam. Two guys in my last squadron were pursuing your unit, but went elsewhere. Both were former C-141 pilots and AFPC wasn't interesting in sending them back to the C-17 since they were 0-4s. One of the guys went to MacDill to check out the C-37s (G-Vs) but the squadron was in the earlier stages of the conversion. I wasn't aware the transition to the C-40 was complete at Hickam, and www.af.mil still has no info on the C-40s (I tried searching C-40 and only got some general's bio). Thanks for confirming the misunderstood allure of the 89th. Their mission appeals to a limited number of AF heavy pilots, but not most.

I believe getting a C-40 to Hickam or a G-IV to MCF is a rare, but achievable accomplishment if the timing works. You've obviously done well in your career to merit such an assignment and are commended for attaining it. However, in my experience with AFPC (& the tanker Navs who control the assignments of tanker pilots), it is nearly impossible to leave a tanker MWS and go to DV transports. Recently one of my co-workers, a former KC-135 IP, and T-1 IP of the year was prohibited from even submitting a package to the 89th by AFPC. That's right...this guy signed the bonus last year, wants to stay in the AF, has his Master's and has done everything the AF has asks him to do, yet the folks at AFPC wouldn't even let him compete for the 89th. His options were to go back to the KC-135, E-3, E-8, or to an RC-135. This guy is in the top 5% of officers I know, and IMHO, AFPC's policy toward him reflects poorly on AFPC. To prevent him from even competing for the 89th only shows just how inflexible the tanker folks at AFPC are. I chose to separate and create my on "crossflow" rather than accept their blind marching orders.

I just want to present the most accurate info I can and want guys like Peter185 to understand assignments like yours are extremely rare. I would also say folks with airlift backgrounds have the best chances to go to DV transports. The tanker mafia is still living in the Gen Curtis Lemay SAC days and need to move on.

Yes, there are some "good deals" out there, but C-40 & C37s to Hickam are rare.

Yahtz

P.S. I too got a good deal...my first choice. A C-17 to the reserves in CHS where I plan to remain for a long, long time. I do not regret my decision to separate at all...after all it's not about the money, it about life (& UGA football)

 

[C40_Pilot]

Yahtzee,

Congrats on C-17's and CHS. I flew the C-17 for four and a half years in CHS. Great city and great airplane/mission. Hope you're loving it like I did. Then I went to Altus and taught there for a while. I was ready for something different and my timing couldn't have been better for this Hickam thing. Nice change from AR, Assault landings and Airdrop. I do miss it though.

It's funny how the AF screws , I guess you could say, its own to keep guys in cockpits and stuck in certain MWS's. I don't understand the logic in some of their decisions. Unfortunately they can't always do what the individual wants even if it is the best choice for them. But I doubt now with the events in Iraq that few people are getting to crossflow or go to another assignment.

You're absolutely right with the info about Andrews and blues and uptightness and all the pomp and circumstance. I couldn't do that, even though this job has a small portion of that.

Good deals do come and go, its that timing thing!

 

[Titan5]

AF Assignments

With regard to duty assignments, what is everyones experience/opinion as to how often you are allowed to compete for a new assignment/aircraft? In other words, how long can a new 2nd Lt. expect to remain on a KC-135 before they would have the option of transferring to a C-17, 141, etc? Maybe that isn't even an option, I don't know.

Secondly, how desirable/competitive are IP assignments? Same scenarion as above. Would the new Lt. have this option? Thanks,

Titan

 

[Yahtzee]

Warning: Long Post Ahead...read fast or hit the back button

C40_Pilot,

I'm still waiting for my Altus date and looking forward to it daily. After eight years in the C-17, I understand you needing a change and oh what a change Hickam has to be. If you're like most of the C-17 guys I know, you probably didn't get to see a lot of Charleston other than Base Ops due to all the TDYs. I take it you are seeing some nice locations from Hickam, and when you're home...wow, what a place to call home.

My choices were limited to KC-135s & variants after 9/11, so thankfully my "rushing" the C-17 squadrons since 1992 (yes...been trying to get here for 11 years) paid off. I am blessed to have this position and give the credit to God for getting me to KCHS, as there ain't no way I had anything to do with it.

Congrats again on the 737 to Hickam.

Yahtz


Titan5,

The Active Duty AF has an assignment process for all officers including pilots. The folks who works these assignments do so from an "Ivory Palace" at Randolph AFB. The organization they work for is called the Air Force Personnel Center (AFPC).

Here are the basics of how assignments work:

While in USAF pilot training Phase III (T-1, or T-38), you will rank order what assignments you would like from those available to your class. I don't know how the dudes at Corpus (AF students going through T-44 trainging then on to C-130s) do their assignments, but I'm guessing it pretty close to the system in T-1 & T-38s.

It's a merit based system meaning the better you do it pilot training, the higher you move in the picking order. Finish number one in SUPT and you get the first pick of the assignments that are sent to your specific SUPT class. There are some exceptions...ie First Assignment Inst Pilots (FAIPs). FAIPS are selected by the Squadron CC after consulting the Flt CC. Often a student gets FAIPed when they wanted something else. FAIPS are almost always in the top third of their class, who generally (again exceptions here too) have the maturity to teach just after graduating from SUPT.

Each airplane(other than the trainers like T-37, T-38s) have crew positions and various qualifications:

Example in the C-17, you have Co-pilots, First Pilots, Aircraft Commanders (AC), Instructor Pilots, and Evaluator Pilots. You can even be an AC for Airland purposes, but be a Airdrop Co-pilot.

Like C40_Pilot said, it always based on the needs of the AF. Sometimes your desires align with the AF needs and you get something really nice...like the C40 to Hawaii.

As far as the heavy side goes (I'll let the fighter guys tell their story), once you are in a Major Weapon System (MWS), ie C-17, C-5, KC-135....plan to stay there for a while. Going from a airlifter (C-5 & C-17) to a tanker (KC-10, KC-135, E-3, E-8, RC-135) or to a C-130 variant and vice versa is called "Cross Flow" and again an extremely rare occurence. This year I think six tanker pilots flowed to airlift to give you an idea of just how rare.

After three to four years in your first operational assignment, you'll have a few options like going back to SUPT as an IP, or moving to another base that flies the plane you are currently qualified in, I.E. KC-135 at Robins to KC-135 at RAF Mildenhall. Some IPs go out to Altus to teach in their MWS like C40_Pilot did in the C-17.

Hope this helps. Got to run. Send me a PM if you want more info.

Yahtz

 

[HueyPilot]

As out-of-my-league as a C-40 to Hickam sounds, I'd certainly try for it after my next tour as a C-130 driver. Right now I'm flying C-21s, but as they say...don't expect two "good deal" assignments....it's likely I'll wind up either doing two ops tours in the Herk or an ops tour followed by a UPT/FTU tour.

One thing that may help is I'll probably try to Palace CHASE after my ops tour....I figure they produced a ton of young LTs in my year-group (FY2000), and not all of us can pin on Major in the active component. That and I've already got 8 years of prior service in the ARNG (where I got all my UH-1 time). So my "good deal" hopefully will be an early return to the Guard/Reserve, where I can finish out my 20 or so years of service (already got 11).

But hey...I'll still inquire about the C-40...all they can do is say NO.

 

[gunhog11]

C40_Pilot,

That is great to hear. I like hearing stories about guys getting rewarded after a "less than desirable assignment." There are few bases, stateside, that are worse than Altus.

hehe. Laughlin, Cannon, Grand Forks come to mind.

Just wait until the AF has an assignment worse than FAIP: FAP.

First Assignment Predator.

MD

 

[HueyPilot]

It's too late...

From what I've been told by recent UPT grads, they have already started handing out Predators in UPT drops. And they are coming from the T-38 side of the house...that can't be good if you're a sub-average T-38 stud!

 

[DHPope93]

Predators in drops???????

Ack!
A 2-or-3-year non-flying assignment right out of the gate! Sounds like 3rd pilots/banked pilots all over again. Will they go through IFF before or after the Predator assignment? If before, will they have to go back through some kind of requal course to get them ready for the fighter schoolhouse to follow? Are they getting C-12s to fly at Indian Springs yet?

Peace,
DP

 

[HueyPilot]

UAV CTP program

Yes, it's true...the UAV'ers will get a CTP program (Companion Trainer Program), but the word is they'll get the recycled T-3A Firefly, since the USAF couldn't find any other place to put them.

I haven't kept up with the T-3 news, but hopefully they've identified the problems with that airframe and maybe a UAV assignment won't be AS bad (although certainly far from being a good assignment). At least you'll get to fly an aerobatic airplane and have some fun (if the planes won't kill you first!).

Where did you hear about the C-12? That'd be pretty cool, actually...get to fly a REAL airplane and go someplace other than the Nellis airspace.

On another note, I don't think the UAV first assignment is meant to be a banked pilot-type assignment...it's just that UAV ops have ramped up alot in recent years, and the MAJCOMs are ready to dump their UAV slots somewhere else (ie UPT grads) since it's not exactly an easy sell.

 

[CCDiscoB]

At least they'll be stationed in Vegas!

Viva Las Vegas!

 

[DHPope93]

The C-12 thing was a rumor I'd heard from a friend of a friend. T-3 sounds more likely, as it'd be much cheaper, and, as
mentioned, more plentiful.

Does Indian Springs still count as Vegas?

Peace,
DP

 

[Yahtzee]

DP,

Are you guys activated also? Our orders are for one year, but most speculate they won't use us that long. I don't mind since I'm just a bum.

I start Altus on Friday, 23 May. Then get the weekend off for Memorial Day....typical AF planning. I'm planning to do a few CBTS then spend the rest of the weekend in Dallas.

Knowing how the AF seems to "cram" a three week course into three months, I'm sure the books can wait for me until Monday evening.

Yahtz

 

[HarleyGuy]

First post- Long time lurker

Just three thoughts I'd like to add:

1) Altus is one of the best deals out there for heavy drivers right now. Home every night, all IP time, all holidays off, and did I mention home every night? They're interviewing like the 89th, and I think more competitive due to more guys in line. Seems like OSA, Altus, Tweets and T-1's are the most sought after 'cause of the old 'Home Every Night' thing.

2) The Chief of Staff Sight Picture that came out recently said 8 years MWS before a second good deal (see above) 'white jet.' So if you do OSA first, like I did, you can expect 96 months in an MWS before doing something else (I actually had a tweet to Columbus and after the Sight Picture came out, they took it away).

3) The 737 Biz-jet (& G5 to Florida) seem as competitive as the astronaut program. Buddies of mine have gone to both jobs, and they were both ultra-qualified and great guys, and were in long lists of other guys that were the same.

Bottom line: formerly bad deals are now good ones, and the lines for good deals are long, long, long. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[DHPope93]

Yahtz,
Yup, 1 year for us too (actually 352 days, but who's counting). Just a partial mobilization though, not the whole unit, as long as we can meet AMC's needs. Although I think (and hope and pray) the war won't go on past the summer, I foresee AMC keeping us on the hook as long as possible for re-deployment purposes (gotta get all those fighter guys back home, as well as the t-tailers like yourself going back and forth). As you said, as a bum I don't mind it at all. Also, you get 30-odd sims before you hit the flightlline, so don't get burnt out studying the first week
As far as Altus is concerned, I agree it is a great deal if you're married. Single, not so much, unless you dig driving to Oke City, Wichita, or Wichita Falls most weekends for "real" action. As a married guy, I loved it. Location sucked, but the QOL factor was sky-high. Tanker-wise, they're starting to non-vol IPs there due to low manning numbers (at least as of my last telephone conversation 1.5 months ago), so it's a breeze to get it as a tanker driver.
UPT IPs? Those guys work too hard, especially the ones taking the hamburger off of the street

Peace,
DP