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Bye Bye Ual!!!!!

FlyinPiker

Incon-fricking-spicuous
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BYE BYE UAL!!!!!!

The BAC-Jets are offically done after ski season and so is our love affair with UAL. They wanted us to extend our flying and all we extended was our middle finger...came out today.

Piker
 

Marko Ramius

Vilnius Nastavnic
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Boy you showed them

Most don't want admit it, but Boyd is pretty much spot on when he says regionals have become seat inventory for their partners and heavily dependant on them for survival. Indy's troubles, the low priced sale of ASA, constant shell game moving of Mesa's RJ's, and the beginning of the likely strategic dismantling of Comair and XJ are all symptoms of the above situation. Loss or change of a codeshare partner really is nothing to be happy about, it just means the lake you used to swim in likely became a pond or a puddle. The tired arguments of 'they can't get rid of us, we make the most money for them,' or 'they need us' seem weak nowadays. Investments in a major like AirWis won't mean squat down the line once UsAirways has burned through that cash and needs more(inevitable). That investment will be tossed aside or diminshed in favor of the new lender's requirements unless AirWis can come up with more money-this is a big reason why ESOP don't work in this capital intensive business. Unfortunately it looks like the regional industry is about to reflect the nature of their mainline partners reality over the last few years and swiftly too.
 

FlyinPiker

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Marko Ramius said:
Indy's troubles.

Did we go solo No!
Marko Ramius said:
constant shell game moving of Mesa's RJ's.

Let's see UAL wanted us to sign 5 year agreements.......they got something like a 10 year deal out of USAir....you telling me UAL wasn't going to pull this stunt again, yeah UAL wanted us to stay with them forever, right?

Marko Ramius said:
and the beginning of the likely strategic dismantling of Comair and XJ are all symptoms of the above situation.

Those carriers are only allowed to have one egg in their basket....there's no where to run when big daddy puts his foot down....


Marko Ramius said:
The tired arguments of 'they can't get rid of us, we make the most money for them,' or 'they need us' seem weak nowadays..

Wait a sec....think you have it backwards. Seeing as Air Wisconsin was a 87 aircraft sole UAX operator.....who was the one saying "They can't get rid of us" when they came asking for us for lower rates. For the last two years UAL has been asking ZW to dance the dance. When they didn't hear what they wanted they walked away with their tough guy face, only to pick up the phone when they got home and call back with "are you sure that's your final answer".


Marko Ramius said:
Investments in a major like AirWis won't mean squat down the line once UsAirways has burned through that cash and needs more(inevitable)..

If that is the case them no major in bankruptcy stands a chance to make it. Take away the fact that Air Wisconsin is an airline and all you have is that it is just another "investor". A bonus is that it is an investor with a service agreement.

Marko Ramius said:
Unfortunately it looks like the regional industry is about to reflect the nature of their mainline partners reality over the last few years and swiftly too.

Yea....I can hear your quite sobbing from here....not!!

I'm not saying we are in a better position than any other regional. I'm not saying this whole US Aiways thing is our "Golden Ticket"

I'm just saying I'm s*ck of UAL's sh*t and I'm glad we're done with it.

Bye Bye UAL!!! Good luck with that grade A UAX operation you have (Dulles G gates, ORD F terminal, Blowjets, Mesa)

Piker
 
Last edited:

Marko Ramius

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If you re-read my post, I said that all of those problems at Indy, etc were symptoms of a larger problem within the regional industry, that they have become providers of seat capacity more than the independant entities they once were. I never said that those individual situations are exactly like AirWis. AirWis has simply taken a different approach than the aforementioned carriers to handle the same problem. Follow the quote about investors to its conclusion. This business is capital intensive, period profitable or not. The only profitable partner AirWis has had in the last 5 years was AirTran. Your former and new partner's are not currently profitable, and likely won't be for quite some time in the industry's current environment. Given that, rising oil prices since the merger's process started, and price pressures from the NW/DL bankruptcies(maybe Indy too), it's likely the new UsAirways will either burn through more cash than originally intended in the business plan or be forced to accelerate the operational merger to attempt to gain the 'synergies' quicker which will likely lead to missteps. Either one of these situations will likely put the new company in the position of looking for new capital within the next few years. He!!, one of the many reasons for this merger was the looming liquidity problem AmWest was facing towards year's end-even with an ATSB loan, and several refinancing initiatives last year. When you want to play with other people's money(raise capital) you have to play by their rules which often include rankling those who have helped you in the past. If the employees of United, UsAirways, etc could have come up with the billions required for bk exit financing out of pocket, the knife would have been turned quicker on the vendors and lessors. Obviously they couldn't, and we all know what happened. If AirWis is able to keep infusing capital into UsAirways in the future, then they needn't worry about their position with that company as a feeder. If not, they'll get squeezed like the rest. I really don't care if or why you hate UAL, it's irrelevant. I'm just trying to point out that 'escaping' or 'leaving' them doesn't remove you from what's going on out here in our industry. At one time AirWis thought that UA would never turn on them, so did ASA, Comair, TransStates, Mesa, Piedmont, Allegheny, Great Lakes, UFS, and so on. At least when some of those carriers lost contracts in the past, they still had some sort of autonomy and fleet that could survive in independant operations albeit without as robust profits. That's not the case today with RJ's that haven't proven that they can survive as standalone aircraft in the US(Indy and Midway).
 

FlyinPiker

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Marko Ramius said:
I really don't care if or why you hate UAL, it's irrelevant. I'm just trying to point out that 'escaping' or 'leaving' them doesn't remove you from what's going on out here in our industry.

What the h.ell are you talking about? I started this fricken thread. It's totally relevant. The theme is that Air Wisconsin is done with UAL and I'm happy about that. Not that Air Wisconsin has reinvented itself as the next generation of regionals......immune from the reality of all that's around them.....destined to take itself and all that is connected to them to success.

They have nothing to offer us and we have nothing to offer them.

UAL has been banging on our door looking for more and asking the impossible since the day they entered bankruptcy (no I'm not letting our own mgmt off the hook....they get credit too), it's annoying and has taken it's toll on this pilot group. I admit I will miss the old UAL route system and pilot bases, but I'm ready to get abused and screwed over by someone other than UAL for awhile.

Five years from now....if we are still alive as a company, I will probably posting "Yea!!!! We're Back!!! "

You seem like a really smart guy and your posts are filled with lots of insight and wisdom, but it's easier than that.

I am happy to hear that we are done with UAL for the time being.

Is that Ok? I mean I do work here, do you?
 

Marko Ramius

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Nope

Don't work there, just writting some open commentary on a web board. As an open web board, the comments about individual companies come from all angles. The comment about the relevance of whether or not you hate UAL, was more in reference to my comments than yours. I was just saying that imo, my comments would be relevent if replaced the words UAL with just about any other network major out there right now. I'm glad you're glad, nothing wrong with that. I can understand your frustration with UAL and it's effect on your pilot group. I know several pilots over there. Basically in a nutshell, I'm just trying to say that you're likely leaving one hornet's nest for another, so as an employee stay level headed, take in the important lessons and be ready for the next round which could far in the future or closer than any of us think.
 

DirkkDiggler

Well-known member
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Feb 13, 2004
Posts
422
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biznes
Marko,

You really think you're quite special don't you. Do you know that you sound like a pompous @ss? Fellow AWACers, make sure you don't get too excited about the future. Marko the Great has spoken and he predicts doom and gloom!
 

GuppyPuppy

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We are all just pawns in this corporate world. Your management will sacrifice you in a heartbeat to save their own king.


GP
 

Bob Loblaw

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GuppyPuppy said:
We are all just pawns in this corporate world. Your management will sacrifice you in a heartbeat to save their own king.


Wow! You hardly ever see a metaphor on flightinfo.com that doesn't get mixed by the second sentence. Nice work.
 

Marko Ramius

Vilnius Nastavnic
Joined
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Posts
378
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The Vilnius Schoolmaster (j.k.)

DirkkDiggler said:
Marko,

You really think you're quite special don't you. Do you know that you sound like a pompous @ss? Fellow AWACers, make sure you don't get too excited about the future. Marko the Great has spoken and he predicts doom and gloom!

What in my post said that I thought I was better than you or any other pilot out there? Bottom line to me is that we(that includes ME) as pilots don't learn to well from our mistakes and experiences outside of the cockpit. We do a terrible job of learning from history, including the active history around us occurring to other carriers. If we can't see the threat directly in front of us, we simply won't believe it to be possible, even if it were warned. The stuff that is happenning to regionals was predicted long ago(not by me), but by and large no one would accept it because we couldn't see it in our face. 50 seat RJ orders have been shufffled/cancelled for several years now at several carriers and many of the new RJ opportunities come from lost flying at other carriers. I'd go on but I'm sure that would raise your ire b/c it's not what you want to hear. I'm just saying to learn from the past/present to be ready for the future, you can be sure management is.
 
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