Bust P56, retire early.

[enigma]

I just had a conversation with someone who is familiar with the new initiative to cut down on P56 incursions. The word is: Bust P56 and you'll get your tickets REVOKED immediately. People, the Feds are about to get serious about this infraction. We airline pilots have been busting P areas around DC at the rate of 1.5 incidents per week.

So here goes. If you take off north. TURN LEFT do not pass go, etc.

The last time I was there, a few weeks ago, they had changed the way in which the clearance delivery controller delivered the clearances. They are now much more specific about reminding you to avoid the P areas.

I wish that they'd just assign an extra tower controller to monitor the initial departure, somewhat like a monitor controller at Mini when the simultaneous PRM approaches are in effect. (I haven't been to MSP in a while, I trust that they are still there )

keep the turn tight.
enigma

 

[Oakum_Boy]

I will make it a point NOT to bid trips to DCA. There are some folks who delay the turn in order to avoid flying over the Pentagon; however, it says nowhere that this is required. Wait too long with any southerly wind aloft, you're in trouble. I'll take my chances elsewhere though, thanks...

 

[NJA Capt]

We airline pilots have been busting P areas around DC at the rate of 1.5 incidents per week.

And it's the GA/Corporate aircraft that are banned at DCA...Ironic ehhh!

 

[Weasil]

we received an email this week saying pretty much the same thing... that violations were going to start becoming more frequent for P56 penetration. Also there are lots of complaints about pilots tracking the 328 radial outbound instead of following the river when it's VMC (noise abatement).

 

[Inconceivable]

I will make it a point NOT to bid trips to DCA

Ditto. Haven't been there since Jun '01. No desire to go in the current climate--air marshalls, passwords and missles. I'll stick to the milk runs, thank you.

 

[apcooper]

Why is it so hyprocritical anyway to ban GA aircraft from TFR's and P-areas but not aircarrier? After all it was airliners that caused the massive loss of life on 9/11 not GA. What is up with that? Anyone have any idea? A 767 can obviously do a lot more damage than a 172!! Why is one banned and the other not? I am a patriot and am fully in favor of reasonable flight restrictions all day long. Someone please shed some light on this hyprocacy though.

 

[bafanguy]

Why is it so hyprocritical anyway to ban GA aircraft from TFR's and P-areas but not aircarrier? After all it was airliners that caused the massive loss of life on 9/11 not GA. What is up with that?

apcooper,

I can only guess that it's not "hypocrisy" that allows air carriers alone to serve DCA but that they carry greater numbers of people per arrival/departure and, perhaps, that's why air carriers continue to operate there. A matter of practicality...not hypocrisy. No one is plotting against GA.

And, I would remind you that it was not merely "airliners" that caused 9-11, it was the criminals who took over those "airliners", killed the crews and flew the "airliners" into the buildings that caused 9-11.

Just an opinion.

 

[fastandlow]

Why is it so hyprocritical anyway to ban GA aircraft from TFR's and P-areas but not aircarrier? After all it was airliners that caused the massive loss of life on 9/11 not GA. What is up with that? Anyone have any idea? A 767 can obviously do a lot more damage than a 172!! Why is one banned and the other not? I am a patriot and am fully in favor of reasonable flight restrictions all day long. Someone please shed some light on this hyprocacy though.

It's easy - GA is relatively powerless as compared to other groups. You must understand that the military, secret service and probably many in the faa would be more happy if GA wasn't complicating their job of protecting society from any and all dangers. Hence, TFR's, TSA security registration, many instances of irrational rule enforcement (harrassment), and other unreasonable burdens.

If it was about logic, then why aren't we profiling Islamic men between 19 and 40? Do you think a true Islamic fascist set on killing Americans would care if he broke a law??? Rules won't stop them.

And please, don't say you're in favor of resonable flight restrictions. They only restrict the law abiding people.

 

[GravityHater]

"What is up with that? Anyone have any idea? A 767 can obviously do a lot more damage than a 172!!"

Because they are under immense pressure to "Do Something" and there is little resistance/political power from that group.
Don't try to apply logic to the decisions people in power are making. (THEY aren't)

My hope was that time would pass, they would get tired of a bazillion infractions that cost a pile of $$$ and resulted in not one iota of improved security and then drop the whole plan.
You may remember my ill-devised plan to have a thousand light a/c over the white house in a symbolic effort to 'take back the skies' a year ago -'they can't catch us all' was the theory!
I listen to all the warnings to GA pilots to 'smarten up or else' over this and secretly hope, no - multiply the incursions 25-fold and maybe they will tire of the silly no-fly zones.
Forget it - come back in 100 years and this will no longer be a free country anyway. No freedom in the skies, it is trickling down.

 

[fastandlow]

There is a way to fight this growing cancer of federal "security". It would mean more people violating and fighting though.... anyone willing to step up???

Once the fight began though, it's fairly easy to bring the feds to near a grinding halt. Just overload them with legally document, information and procedural requests. Might end up getting busted in the long run, but I guarantee you they'd find a way to make it better if it made them work that much with a bunch of cases.

my 2 cents

 

[Mugs]

we received an email this week saying pretty much the same thing... that violations were going to start becoming more frequent for P56 penetration. Also there are lots of complaints about pilots tracking the 328 radial outbound instead of following the river when it's VMC (noise abatement).

What is wrong with tracking the 328 radial in VMC? I would have to look at the charts, but I thought I remembered it saying track the 328 IMC, while in VMC follow the river visually or track the 328. I don't recall an actual restriction regarding the 328 in VMC or any mention of noise abatement (other than the ICAO profile, using a full thrust takeoff).

On the A320, I like to just LNAV the 328 radial with raw data and eyeball backup anyway. That way, once your off the ground the FD bar gives the proper guidance and the non-flying pilot doesn't have to make any heading inputs for FD guidance at all. Also, if you lose an engine your going to pick up the 328 as well.

 

[EagleRJ]

It's ridiculous for the government to get whipped into such a frenzy over airplanes nicking the corner of P-56, when they're allowed to operate to and from DCA. If a plane turns right instead of left off 36, they will be over the White House in around 20 seconds! If the Secret Service truly wants to get tough, they will establish a 50-mile radius sterile airspace area with barrage balloons and Patriot missiles, in which no aircraft at all are allowed.

Oh yeah, the politicians don't want to take a 1-hour limo ride to get to the Beltway!

 

[NJA Capt]

Good thing Daley isn't mayor of DC......nobody would be going there.

Prior to 9/11, I thought of DCA as more of a corporate aircraft airport that happened to have a few airline flights. I miss going in there. I didn't see a big deal with the procedures. Piece of cake compared to the T4. (GA guys know what that one is )

 

[flint4xx]

Good thing Daley isn't mayor of DC......nobody would be going there.

Might be tough for a DC Mayor since the airport is in Virginia, but point taken.

 

[TDTURBO]

Real simple, boycot any flights into that armpit, make the pricks walk.

If pilots could only stick together you guys could get more of what you want.

There is no way I would put up with the threats and other crap you go through!

It reminds me of those scabs Lima Lima that flew the Chicago airshow, I can understand the military pilots that had to fly but there is no excuse for the civilians.

This stuff really pisses me off!

 

[jumppilot]

What was DCA like before 9/11?

 

[Corona]

Why is it so hyprocritical anyway to ban GA aircraft from TFR's and P-areas but not aircarrier? After all it was airliners that caused the massive loss of life on 9/11 not GA. What is up with that? Anyone have any idea? A 767 can obviously do a lot more damage than a 172!! Why is one banned and the other not? I am a patriot and am fully in favor of reasonable flight restrictions all day long. Someone please shed some light on this hyprocacy though.

Simple: They are idiots.

The image of security is much more important than the substance of security.

In fact, a 172 can do almost no damage to a skyscraper. Remember the kid who flew a 172 into a skyscraper in FL after 9/11? His airplane basically got stuck halfway through the window. He died, but noone else was even injured.

Thank God for AOPA. They are the only ones protecting us from these loonies.

C

 

[Hovernut]

I don't mind flying there at all. I just wish our darned terrain display could be configured to paint P-56 in a giant red block! I guess I'll just have to keep scaring captains with my R-328 intercept maneuver. Anyone else have trouble tracking the darned river on climbout? I mean, how are you supposed to fly upstream with a decent pitch attitude on and still see the darned thing? Tracking it on the river visual is a breeze, though, with the descent pitch attitude. Not to mention a whole lotta FUN!!

 

[bafanguy]

It's hard to find anything good to say about DCA. If I were King of the World ( just waiting for the paperwork to clear ), I'd ban all airline traffic in DCA, make them go to that big ghost-town airport about 20 nm west, and turn DCA into an all-GA airport.

You really didn't expect to see the feds do something "logical", did you ? The airport works because ALL crews who fly/have flown there make it work in spite of the feds. This doesn't mean they SHOULD have to make it work, only that they DO make it work.

Have to say, though, the wide-eyed look on the faces of pax after experiencing the LDA/DME flown in mins in some serious rain/turb was pretty funny. Even when they know the turn is coming, riding through it in the murk & muck seemed to disquiet them a bit.

 

[skeezer]

Anyone else have trouble tracking the darned river on climbout? I mean, how are you supposed to fly upstream with a decent pitch attitude on and still see the darned thing?

On the CRJ it is practically impossible to track the river outbound. With a 12.5 to 15 degree pitch up attitude I can't see crap out the front. As the FO I can barely see the river bank out the right side but the higher we climb, the harder that gets. Follow the 328 radial and you shall be fine.

Skeezer

 

[enigma]

we received an email this week saying pretty much the same thing... that violations were going to start becoming more frequent for P56 penetration. Also there are lots of complaints about pilots tracking the 328 radial outbound instead of following the river when it's VMC (noise abatement).

Weasil, I don't see anything on the Noise Abatement & Prohibited Area (P-56) Avoidance Procedures page. Jepps 10-4A about VMC. It gives either VFR, or IFR.

If I receive an IFR clearance, I follow IFRules. To me, and I'm really not arguing here, that means that all aircraft on an IFR plan need to follow the IFR procedure even in VMC. I will follow the 328 radial no matter what the visibility.

To give a little more background, I made the mistake of assuming that VFR meant VMC at DCA about two months ago. I DID follow the river in VMC and that created confusion when the controller issued a turn to 130 degrees. He did NOT specify the desired direction of turn. At the time the heading was issued, I was tracking the river and my heading was approximately 315, a heading that put 130 just about on my tail. So I turned left, away from the P areas. About 40 degrees into the turn, the controller realized that we turned left instead of right and inquired as to what we were doing. In the ensuing discussions, once we got the problem straightened out, the controller stated that he expected us to turn right since a right turn was shorter when an aircraft was following the 328 radial. In short, even in VMC, he was expecting us to follow the 328 radial, not to follow the river. I learned two things, first remember the difference between VMC and VFR, and to never assume the direction of turn, especially near P areas even when the direction seems obvious. That event is the reason that I have been closely following the DCA situation. There's nothing quite as awakening as having the controller ask where you're going when you're close to not one, but three P areas.

Whatever you do boys do, don't take off of 1, and go straight.

regards,
enigma

 

[enigma]

Follow the 328 radial and you shall be fine.

Skeezer

dittos

 

[Hovernut]

Drudge is now reporting that the military is testing a wide-beam LASER to ward planes off of the ADIZ and maybe P areas.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A7708-2005Jan13?language=printer

 

[Anaconda]

comair is now offering a 60-day free vacation for p-56 busts, in addition to whatever the feds might throw at you. nice way to motivate the troops, huh?

 

[atrdriver]

Oh yeah, the politicians don't want to take a 1-hour limo ride to get to the Beltway!

That's the ONLY reason that DCA is still open. Congress doesn't want to deal with the drive to IAD.