Bush is teaching Labor a lesson!!!!!!!!!

[TXCAP4228]

Timebuilder, I am always impressed with your wisdom and maturity. In fact we agree on almost everything but this. In that spirit, I have a couple of short replies.

I think I know what soup was saying, and perhaps you do, too.

Lazarus was only able to rise from the dead because of Jesus. Lazarus was able to live out his life on earth, and later die a normal death. The experience of Christ was far different, in that he ascended into heaven, yet was able to appear among his followers, and converse with them, and show them the wounds that caused His death. A completely different matter, no doubt.

My intent was to reply to Soup's direct statement. He made a factual error about the bible in the same post where he asked me if I had ever read it. The answer is yes, I have. I read his post to be a little condescending and I called him on it. It was not my intent to be insulting - I hope neither you nor soup took it that way.

From a secular viewpoint you are correct. However, the Bible authenticates itself as being inerrant, precluding the possibility, at least for believers, that the accounts of Him are wrong. That leaves only the possibilities of liar, lunatic, or the true Christ, the Messiah of the Old Testament.

Since my only viewpoint is secular, this is how I approach the "lord liar or lunatic" statement. This statement is a fallacy of logic since there are other possibilities. A legitimate premise cannot be self supporting - in other words it cannot define it own truth... It would be like using a word to define itself, you know what I mean? The definition would have no real meaning. The "lord, liar or lunatic" statement exhibits this flaw. You may accept it if you want and I will certainly not criticize you for it.

Soup has made some other posts that I will respond to separately.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Soupbone

Soup, my intent is not to insult you.

Wonder when I might here from you. You obviously did not fully understand my thread. Yes, at least you have read and studied some things but missed the bigger picture. Who raised Lazarus from the dead...Jesus did. So obviously since you believe that then there is hope for you.

1) You will hear from me right away - I tried to stay away form this but I always seem to get pulled in. I'm not affraid of the discussion.
2) I did not miss the point of your post, I responded to your verbatum statement. Don't backtrack now and say you meant something else. You assumed (incorrectly) that I had no clue what the bible said and I called you on it.
3) Hope for me? Please don't condescend. I haven't made similar statements to you.
4) Actually, I do not beleive. I am simply recalling a story told in a book.

Please don't take parts of the Bible. Use it all...or don't use any. I have read it...cover to cover. Have you?

1) You are taking parts of the bible, why can't I?
2) Use it all or don't use any of it? Do YOU use all of it? How about the old testament? If you have had yeast in your bread or eaten bacon this week then you do not use all of the bible.
3) Yes, I have read ALL of it. I went to sunday school just like you. I went to bible studies just like you. Don't be condescending if you don't know the background of the person you're talking to.

As far as religion, nice dictionary. I do not mind at all being grouped into a "religion". I simply was stating that there are a lot of "religion's" but only one way to Christ.

I will accept that, but in your prior post it looked to me ike you were attempting to distinguish between religion and Christ. Christ is a figure, Christianity is a religion. Zeus is a figure, worshiping Zeus is a religion. We may not really disagree on this subject and in any case it is semantic. Always good to define terms though, right?

Small minded...yes, but Christ did not give any other options!

I didn't say small minded, and I don't want you to think that I think that. Others who have discussed this in other recent threads have said some pretty impolite things but I always try to be more diplomatic.

One last thing...too many people and too many books were written about Jesus at THAT time (all in agreement) to be inaccurate. That goes against every book in the Bible. So is the whole Bible wrong...every book?

Lots of ancient Greeks wrote about their gods, how is that any different? Religions all over the world have texts that you would certainly not agree with since you acceot yours exclusively so I will turn your question around on you. Why are they all wrong??

Now I will go to your next post.

Please do not misunderstand the fundamental philosophy of Christianity. You must look at what Jesus said about HIMSELF.

Jesus was not the author of any of the books of the bible. In fact, all of his words are recorded by others. At LEAST one other possibility to the "lord, liar, lunatic" statement you made is that those who recorded Jesus' words made errors. Maybe they exagerated, maybe they lied, maybe they simply remembered wrong.

Your premise (the "lord, liar, lunatic" statement) begins with the assumption that everything in the bible is correct, and then you use that to prove that it is correct. This is circular reasoning. I said more about this in my reply to Timebuilder.

But Jesus made the claim to be God, and the only way to God. So yes, He was either a liar, lunitic, or exactly who He said He was. So Christians, use the rest of the Bible to confirm exactly what He said, so that we dont (blindly) follow someone like Jones, Koresh etc....

This demonstates the logic flaw I point out above.

And Timebuilder is right, it does take faith. But the rewards are eternal!

In spite of our disagreement on this issue, what Timebuilder says usually is right. We just happen to disagree here. In any case, I don't have the capacity to accept the veracity of the Bible based on faith anymore than I can accept stories written about Zeus.

 

[Timebuilder]

A legitimate premise cannot be self supporting - in other words it cannot define it own truth... It would be like using a word to define itself, you know what I mean? The definition would have no real meaning. The "lord, liar or lunatic" statement exhibits this flaw. You may accept it if you want and I will certainly not criticize you for it.

I agree. The premise I use is the stipulation that the Bible is inerrant. Outside of that, there are any number of possibilities. That's why no one can successfully argue someone into salvation, or argue an atheist into becoming a believer. All one can do is to accurately present the Gospel, and if the seed falls on fertile ground, it will grow. The important thing, therefore is to spread the seed, and God will take care of where it lands. This is known as the Parable of the Sower, Luke 8:5-8.

 

[Soupbone]

TX,
My sincere humble apology. I never meant to sound condescending. I love a good debate and have no intention of yelling insults at anyone. Unfortunately I am not as articulate as Timebuilder. I will answer your thread tomorrow. I must take the family out to dinner. Until tomorrow...good night.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Fair enough. Enjoy dinner and we can continue this tomorrow. I enjoy a good debate too, but this can be a tough subject to debate.

Is HawkerF/O still out there? I was hoping he would answer the post I made to him.

 

[enigma]

Question for those of you who seem so bothered by Christianity/the Bible, etc.

First the set up. Christianity is the belief that the historical figure, Jesus Christ died, rose again and that acceptance of his gift is the only way to the Father. Jesus Christ advocated treating others in the way that one desires to be treated and advocated turning the other cheek when done wrong. He did not advocate forcing himself on anyone. Some choose to believe, some choose not to. For those that choose not to believe, I have a question.

Why do you care what the Bible says, or if Jesus was really God, or about anything connected to the Judeo-Christian Almighty God?

If you read the Bible, it clearly states that Jesus said that he was the way, the truth, etc. and that the only way to the Father was through him. If you reject that, then you reject the entire Bible, soooooooo, Why do you bother to debate the subject? I personally choose to believe that the the Hindus/Catholics/Mormons/Muslims/Seventh Day Adventists/Shintus/etc, are incorrect in their beliefs about the road to the afterlife. BUT, I don't attempt to read their sacred material and debunk it. I don't care to show them up. I tell them why I believe that Jesus is the true Savior of the world. It is up to them to reject or accept the good news.

Once again, stated just a little differently. Why do you attempt to argue against Jesus when you have already rejected his message?

regards,
8N

BTW, I'm not arguing against the Hindus/Catholics/Mormons/Muslims/SDA's/Shintus, etc. I just know that non of these religions are based upon Jesus as the Way, the Truth and the Life.

 

[Timebuilder]

All right, I'm up a couple of hours early. I'll hit the snooze room when I get to the airport.

I think most of the folks who are into arguing against the Savior are those who would like a "freedom from religion" along with a "freedom OF religion".

As far as the lack of making a logical argument for the truth of the Bible, it may be an example that God indeed has a sense of humor. Instead of allowing for a majority of supporting data, He allows His word, the Bible, to authenticate itself. Instead of allowing for a "belief buffet" where youy can choose whatever path you like, and beliefs are all equivalent (can you hear a hushed chorus of 'kum by ya' in the background?), He says instead that His way is the only way, surely drawing the ire of the "open minded"!

Ya gotta love the discipline and love of His plan. My way, or the highway. Everyone is welcome. Faith is a requirement. The logic of Man is not.

What a guy.

 

[mar]

I just know I'm gonna regret this

The problem with Baptists is that they don't hold them underwater long enough.

Enigma, pardon me, but you're flat out wrong about Catholics.

You're probably some sort of protestant. Don't you realize that that the Jesuits/Catholics *invented* Christianity?

It was the protestants who, for political reasons (get it? PROTESTant?) broke away from the Catholic church--but the fundamental belief structure is the same.

Jesus is the one and only son of god and he was killed but rose again. If you believe that (as Catholics do) then you're a Christian.

Everything else is just decoration (or better: decorum).

It's this holier-than-thou, exclusionary, almost arrogant attitude demonstrated by so-called Christians that really turns people off.

I guess Catholics just aren't *good enough* Christians--or the *right kind* of Christians to actually participate in the saving of the human race.

Well, for chrissakes, whose team are you on anyway?

 

[Typhoon1244]

Once again, stated just a little differently. Why do you attempt to argue against Jesus when you have already rejected his message?

Christ's message was "love thy neighbor, love thyself, and love thy God." Rejected his message? His message sounds pretty good to me.

What I reject is humanity taking advantage of his teachings by forming organized religions intent on controlling others.

What I reject is people being slaughtered by the billions throughout history for the sake of religious correctness. (How often does an agnostic deliberately fly an airliner full of people into a building?)

What I reject is people who substitute faith for logic, people who "surrender their life to God" because they're incapable of being responsible for their own actions. I reject those who think their belief in an invisible man in the sky is more important than their spouses, children, and friends.

I reject the idea that you can't live a good, moral life without adhering to the teachings of an organized church.

I reject a argument in favor of a particular religion that is founded in that religion. That kind of circular logic doesn't impress me.

And I absoultely reject an unrepentant scab (TurboS7...a.k.a. "Frank Burns") talking about his faith in the Almighty God...the very height of hypocrisy.

I really, truly believe that Christ would be sickened by the way his teachings have been corrupted and misused over the centuries.

 

[bulldog]

tphoon1244

Amen brother, I'm with ya!!!

 

[PCL_128]

And I absoultely reject an unrepentant scab (TurboS7...a.k.a. "Frank Burns") talking about his faith in the Almighty God...the very height of hypocrisy.

Thank you for someone finally saying that.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Can we please go back to talking about airplanes now? This thread is giving me indigestion!

 

[46Driver]

What does being a scab have to do with religion one way or the other??? Just curious about the analogy...

 

[Soupbone]

Well I tried to answer you TX, twice, but for some reason it didn't take so I will try again later.
Mar,
good post, but one thing that is a common misconception. Baptist are not protestants. We did not protest anything. Our origins came from John "the Baptist". And you are exactly right, there is only one way to salvation. The religions just interpret the Bible differently.

Typhoon,
another good post...but just one comment. Being a good moral person is great, but in the end it doesn't mean squat if I person doesn't know Christ.

TX, I will reply to you later, but thanks for reminding me to keep this debate interesting without throwing insults or sounding condescending.

I love debating religion, politics, airplanes, whatever...that is why I love this forum. Most people have excellent points to make. Others unfortunately love to insult just because someone doesn't agree with them.

 

[TXCAP4228]

Good morning soup,

Part of the problem with the reply not working may be that there is a size limit on posts - I've run into that too. You may have to try breaking your reply into two separate back to back replies. Keep trying - I'll be around the board today.

Typhoon, great post.

Enigma:

Why do you care what the Bible says, or if Jesus was really God, or about anything connected to the Judeo-Christian Almighty God?

You ask a good question. The answer is that I didn't bring up the subject and I tried to avoid getting into this discussion (again). However, there are people in the "believing" camp that routinely make posts about their christianity - heck, lots of people on these boards even use bible verses as part of their autosignature. Now, I do not disrespect anyone for their belief as long as they are consistent with their own standards (in other words, as long as your not a hypocrite I will respect you even if you disagree with me).

The reason I (and Typhoon1244 and others) get into this conversation (over and over again) is that some other folks out there make some pretty sweeping statements that we don't agree with, and just like we would on any other topic on this board we say "hey, I disagree with that."

Now, more specifically... The reason that we discuss the bible is that it is held out to be its own self justifying evidence when these disagreements come up. Frequently, in order to respond to those of us non belivers out here, people will use a bible verse. So my question to you, enigma, is how can we discuss this topic with those who would discuss it with us if we can't talk about the subject matter????