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Bush camp: 'It's war within weeks'

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"Multilateralism cannot become an excuse for inaction," says Colin Powell. Translation: we're going ahead with our vendetta whether you think it's a good idea or not.

I'm sorry, but I have a real problem with this. Explicit in "United Nations"--the resolutions of which we're using to justify said vendetta--is the word UNITED. What do we have instead? A self-styled cowboy who fancies himself something of a maverick.

If Bush goes ahead with this against the wishes of the UN Security Council, he should be impeached.
 
Gen X has Spoken

I'll never understand the liberal mind. VFR, go ride your skateboard, world politics is slightly over your head.

..vendetta...
It's not a "vendetta." It's called the War against Terrorism. Don't bother saying there is no connection either. Your briefings come from CNN, mine come from a different source with a higher classification.

If Bush goes ahead with this against the wishes of the UN Security Council, he should be impeached.
Saddam should be impeached for going against the UN Security Council!! Why is it always us that should be punished? Why can Saddam invade Kuwait, deceive the world with his known WMD, which he has used before, and it's OK? WHY IS THERE NO OUT CRY FROM THE WORLD WHEN HE KILLS??:mad:
 
Right on Frieght Dog!!!! But, this is not an anti war thread, its anti Republican anti Bush administration. Liberal proaganda. Anybody see "Blackhawk down"??? Bombing innocent women and children, but where were the protest's and annoying threads on AVIATION message boards? Clinton was getting a hummer in the oval office while our borders were being overun with muslims who want to learn how to fly.


Borders, Language, Culture!!!!!!!!
 
Re: The Latest

VFR on Top said:
"Multilateralism cannot become an excuse for inaction," says Colin Powell. Translation: we're going ahead with our vendetta whether you think it's a good idea or not.

I'm sorry, but I have a real problem with this. Explicit in "United Nations"--the resolutions of which we're using to justify said vendetta--is the word UNITED. What do we have instead? A self-styled cowboy who fancies himself something of a maverick.

If Bush goes ahead with this against the wishes of the UN Security Council, he should be impeached.
I've got news for ya' chief: we don't need no stinkin' thumbs up from the UN to go in an act in our own best interests, unilaterally. There are no grounds on which to impeach (snicker!)our President for protecting our country, even if it is against the wishes of some spineless UN members. We are not the United States of the United Nations! We are a sovereign country, and we elect our leaders to make such decisions. There can't be a referendum on everything. However, if there were a referendum on action in Iraq, we'd go because...

I've got more news for you peaceniks: you are in the MINORITY (and shrinking) when it comes to using force in Iraq, but you wouldn't know it from all the Bush-bashers and Hussein-huggers in the media. Here are some recent scientific numbers (the columns aren't lining up, but it's simple enough to figure out):

Time/CNN Poll conducted by Harris Interactive. Latest: Jan. 15-16, 2003. N=1,010 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1.
.

"Do you think the U.S. should or should not use military action involving ground troops to attempt to remove Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq?"

Should/ Should Not/ Not Sure
% % %
1-03 60 / 33 / 7
12-02 55 / 37 / 8
11-02 57 / 33 / 10
.

"Regardless of whether you think the U.S. should or should not use ground troops to remove Saddam Hussein from power, do you think the United States would be morally justified or morally unjustified if it sends troops into Iraq to remove Hussein from power?"
Morally Justified / Morally Unjustified / Not Sure
% % %
1-03 66 / 28 / 6

And speaking of the UN, if they were truly "united", then those softies Germany and France woud back us up on the resolutions that THEY AGREED TO on Sept 12, 2001. Here are summaries for those who have FORGOTTEN:

**UN General Assembly Resolution 56/1: Adopted one day after the September 11th attacks, this resolution stresses that those responsible for the terrorist acts, as well as those who aid and support them, should be held accountable. It also calls for international cooperation to prevent and eradicate terrorism.


**UN Security Council Resolution 1368: Also adopted on September 12th, this resolution con-demns the terrorist acts on the U.S. and expresses the UN's solidarity with America. It also urges that the perpetrators, organizers and sponsors of these crimes be brought to justice. Moreover, the resolution calls for all necessary steps to be taken in response to the September 11th attacks and all other forms of terrorism.


**UN Security Council Resolution 1373: Adopted in response to a petition from the United States, this unprecedented Security Council resolution implements a wide range of measures to dramatically augment international cooperation to stop terrorism. The resolution requires all nations to prevent and suppress the financing of terrorist acts, freeze financial assets used for terrorism, deny safe harbor to terrorists and to take steps to ensure that those who commit acts of terrorism are held accountable. It also urges nations to intensify the exchange of information on terrorist actions or movements, forged or falsified documents, trafficking of weapons and sensitive materials, the use of communications to further terrorist plots and the spread of weapons of mass destruction.

Whew...I'm worn out arguing with a brick wall. Anyone else wanna jump in here?
 
Our country has been and will continue to be infiltrated with undercover terrorists. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were not the sole participants of the OKC bombing. (search Jayna Davis)

Pilots and the passengers they carry are on the front lines. We try to convince ourselves that TWA 800 and Flight 587 were just accidents using UFO-style explanations.

We need to pick one path or another. The passive political role has not worked.
 
Archer, you're still in college, so you can be forgiven for being a little naiive.

Don't you think that if terrorist groups had the capacity to launch additional attacks, they already would have? They've been trying to as hard as they can since 9/11, but trouble is, they continue to deal with an acute staffing shortage, as well as interruption to their communication, funding, and supply. Nothing will change when we take Saddam out, except that one of the terrorists' sources for weapons, training, and money will be removed.

EalgeRJ, First of all, people in college can be wiser than people who are about to fall over and die. A college student that follows the news, discusses and debates political issues, and is informed, can be much wiser than a middle aged or 70 year old man or woman who has been a farmer and doesn't even know even where Iraq is!

Aren't the bombings in Israel, sorry...the ROUTINE suicide bombings in Israel, enough proof that terrorists can defeat even the strongest of nations, no matter how many nukes or aircraft carriers they have in their military? Isn't 9/11 enough proof that even America, the great CIA, the great US Armed Forces cannot prevent the deaths of thousands of Americans in the heart of New York?

Just because terrorist don't strike, doesn't mean they can't! They just need some motivation, like America killing more of their fellow mulsim brothers in Iraq. Once they have that excuse, they will find the means to stricke back. Islamic extremist leaders in the UK have warned western powers. But the west does not heed warnings, and underestimates and ignores terrorist retaliations.

Archer,

If you look at your history, I belive you will find that people in the Middle East have been fighting for slightly longer than Bush has been in office, even longer than 50 yrs, and actually a little longer than the USA has been in existence, like by thousands of years.

Sidesaddle, I know my history, don't worry. People in the middle east have been fighting just as much as Americans have been fighting against the British, or among themselves, in the past. War existed in every corner of the world in some form or another, one time or another. Don't stretch things too far back.

Before 1948, Israel did not exist, and Palestinians lived happy and in peace. Obviously, relative to today. The Ottoman empire treated them with respect and gave them much more freedom than Israel...which is currently denying them existance.

But, Jews decided they want their own country, unlike Christians and Muslims, who have been persecuted throughout the years just as much, in other locations and times. And with the help of America and other western countries, Israel was created, and the problems of the Palestinian people begun.

With a billion dollars of military aid a year, Israel is now in possession of one of the greatest and most experienced armies in the world, it's intelligence agency, the Mossad, competing with the CIA and MI6, and obviously, the Palestinians, who are still in the same stage of development as half a century ago, while Israel expanded and developped, can't do much but resort to terrorsim.

Now, innocent Israeli chidlren are born every day, and they derserve to go to school in safety and peace, and have hope for the future. Israel is formed, and has existed for 50+ years now, and you can't do much about it. The only solution is co-existance...but neither side is allowing this.

I got a little off track, but the point is, if Israel has one of the greatest armies in the world today, and immense superiority over the Palestinians, is because of America. If America didn't support the Israelies, they would be throwing rocks just like the palestinians, and it would be a fare game, rocks against rocks.

But America had to supply arms, just like to many other countries in the world (to which it waged wars against at times), and destroy the balance, and intensify the trouble in the middle east.

So, Bush doing nothing to prevent further wars.

If Iraq has these weapons, and if the CIA is the greatest intelligence agency in the world, and if America is the greatest most just nation in the world, why does it not come up with concrete evidence of these weaons using the CIA, and why does it not reveal to the world these proofs?

And media is also the biggest bunch of bull crap put together on TV, and it can be twisted to the desire of the West. Western and Eastern media can tell the same event, from two totally different prospectives. A very good example of this is the Israeli and Palestinian newspapers...how they report events in their own way, twisitng the facts.

Just like CNN and BBC do, compared to Middle Eastern news agenies..

you can't trust what you see on TV, but unfortunately, most people do, and this is how their minds and way of thinking are manipulated, and the world is divided, and hatred and ignorace spread.

But at least, if the CIA finds proof of weapons of mass destruction, and CNN shows them to the world, it'll be a start, and then, will Bush's plan to invade Iraq, and in the process kill thousands of innocent civilians and loose American and European troops, yet in the name of a good cause, i.e to prevent the use by Iraq of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons of mass destruction that could kill millions of people and bring about devastation, be justifed.

Until then, until proof, world stability and peace are of more importance than one nation's interests.

Archer
 
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I'll never understand the liberal mind. VFR, go ride your skateboard, world politics is slightly over your head.
Well, at least you're willing to admit that this is about politics, not terrorism or WMD. And for the record, I haven't owned a skateboard in over two decades.
 
I have been reading this thread and it occurs to me that most of you have forgotten what this country and this war is about. We are already at war. I for one do not need or want the Pres to prove to me that we need to go to war. Most people who are against taking action are either selfish or scared. I can understand not wanting you or loveones to go and not wanting to watch your 401k go south. Wake up war takes sacrifice and people get killed. Its necessary from time to time and the alternatives can be much worse. Bush is by no means perfect, but I will tell you that he is truly concerned with the well being of this country and has the most competent group of advisors ever assembled. Sit back and support the effort or shut up.
 
bugchaser said:
Bush is by no means perfect, but I will tell you that he is truly concerned with the well being of this country...
To say nothing of his re-election campaign.
...and has the most competent group of advisors ever assembled.
Okay, I'll give you that, to some degree. Sometimes I wish that pretzel had wiped George II out so that Cheney and Rumsfield could take over.
Sit back and support the effort or shut up.
Would you like us to bleat like sheep, too?

You know, I never heard this "be quiet and support the President" garbage about Clinton and Somalia or Haiti. How come you guys weren't marching in lockstep behind the Administration back then? (Oh, that's right. There's no oil in Somalia or Haiti.)

Yes, war is occasionally necessary...but not this time. Sending troops overseas with the country in its present un-secure state is stupid. It's just that simple.

Imagine a bunch of bikers break down the door of your home, wreck the place, then take off. Would you run after them with a shotgun and leave the door dangling on its hinges?

...or would you fix the door, then go out and be Charles Bronson for the World? If we leave the borders of the country open--the way they are now--the only way we cna be safe is to systematically hunt down every Saddam and Kim in the world and wipe them out. It'll be fantastically expensive in terms of lives and equipment, and it'll take thirty years.

If we fix our nation so that no WMD or fanatical hijacker could get in, our lives become much simpler.
 
This post is directed to Archer but many of his points have been stated by others so in that sense I am responding to those folks as well.

Archer said:
Just because terrorist don't strike, doesn't mean they can't! They just need some motivation, like America killing more of their fellow mulsim brothers in Iraq. Once they have that excuse, they will find the means to stricke back. Islamic extremist leaders in the UK have warned western powers. But the west does not heed warnings, and underestimates and ignores terrorist retaliations.
1) Terrorists don't strike us because we are killing their fellow muslim brothers. They strike because they hate us and we are an easy target. Free and open sociteties like ours are the antithesis of the ideal world dreamed of by many radical muslims groups. Reference the Marine barracks in Beituit in 1982.
2) The only way to protect ourseles is to route out all of these groups and insure that they have no safe havens in the world. Iraq is a safe haven. Abu Nidal had been living there for years until his recent death.
3) Your viewpoint is naive for these reasons.

Archer said:
Sidesaddle, I know my history, don't worry. People in the middle east have been fighting just as much as Americans have been fighting against the British, or among themselves, in the past. War existed in every corner of the world in some form or another, one time or another. Don't stretch things too far back.
1) Archer, the point is that you can hope for peace and world stability all you want. This region will not be peaceful and stable just because you hope for it. I thing Sidesaddles point was made nicely.
2) You make a feeble attempt to compare brutal dictatorships and theocracies in this part of the world with the democratically elected governments of free and open western nartions. Sorry, that's doesn't fly at all. Many of the governments in the arab world are oppressive are oppressive and brutal. The taliban are a good example.

Archer said:
Before 1948, Israel did not exist, and Palestinians lived happy and in peace. Obviously, relative to today. The Ottoman empire treated them with respect and gave them much more freedom than Israel...which is currently denying them existance.

But, Jews decided they want their own country, unlike Christians and Muslims, who have been persecuted throughout the years just as much, in other locations and times. And with the help of America and other western countries, Israel was created, and the problems of the Palestinian people begun.
1) The root of this problem is that many Jews fled oppression by the germans during WW2 - and for good reason since more than 6 million of their brothers and sisters were killed. With this number of displaced persons, the world had an obligation to DO SOMETHING with them. The nations of post WW2 Europe were not in a position to absorb them. This is the origin of Israel.
2) The Palestinians were nationless before 1948, and remain naitonless today. The whole argument of a Palestinian homeland is a farce. This arose when they decided that they wanted one too. They had several opportunities in the 50's but were not able to come together. This is not Israels fault.
3) Yes, I agree that Palestine has as much a right to a "homeland" as Israel, but the Palestinians have NEVER united under a central authority that speaks for them - and in spite of Arafat this failure continues to the present day.


Archer said:
With a billion dollars of military aid a year, Israel is now in possession of one of the greatest and most experienced armies in the world, it's intelligence agency, the Mossad, competing with the CIA and MI6, and obviously, the Palestinians, who are still in the same stage of development as half a century ago, while Israel expanded and developped, can't do much but resort to terrorsim.
1) One of the stated reasons for the existence of the PLO is the destruction of Israel.
2) Israel's neighbors have repeatedly attacked her and threatened her sovereignty. Make no mistake - the arab community has shown overt and open aggression but continues to get a pass.
3) Israel has the right to defend itself under these circumstances.
4) The Palestinians may feel they have no other resort than terrorism, but this is not true. Arafat was given 95% of what he asked for a few years ago but he walked away from the negotiations and the most recent phase of "suicide bombings" (even though they ought to be called homicde bombings) began. Why do you think that is?

Archer said:
Now, innocent Israeli chidlren are born every day, and they derserve to go to school in safety and peace, and have hope for the future. Israel is formed, and has existed for 50+ years now, and you can't do much about it. The only solution is co-existance...but neither side is allowing this.
1) I hold the Palestinians partially responsible for their current situation. Rabin gave up so much in the quest for peace that he was assasinated by hardliners of his own. The government of Israel has negotiated in good faith with the Palestinian authority and has offered 95% or more of what Arafat said he wanted only to be turned down.
2) The Israelis have demonstrated convincingly that the Palestinian authority recruited terrorists from their OWN YOUNG PEOPLE to try to kill innocent Israeli civilians. Their have been instances of Israeli SCHOOL BUSSES being bombed killing children. Somehow Israel continues to try and negotiate.

Archer said:
So, Bush doing nothing to prevent further wars.
1) Do you suppose that the Taliban will ever oppress women in Afghanistan again?
2) Do you think that the Taliban will ever be a haven for terrorists again?
3) Do you think that when Iraq's Baath party regime is obviated that they will be able to continue to support Abu Nidal and his ilk?
4) This is the kind of naive statement you make that disturbs me and others.

Archer said:
If Iraq has these weapons, and if the CIA is the greatest intelligence agency in the world, and if America is the greatest most just nation in the world, why does it not come up with concrete evidence of these weaons using the CIA, and why does it not reveal to the world these proofs?
This one is easy. If we reveal the sources of inteligence we risk exposing our sources and methods for obtaining that inteligence. If we do that, these sources will no longer be useful to us. The very lives of those assets may even be at stake. You need to think about that.

Archer said:
But at least, if the CIA finds proof of weapons of mass destruction, and CNN shows them to the world, it'll be a start, and then, will Bush's plan to invade Iraq, and in the process kill thousands of innocent civilians and loose American and European troops, yet in the name of a good cause, i.e to prevent the use by Iraq of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons of mass destruction that could kill millions of people and bring about devastation, be justifed.

Until then, until proof, world stability and peace are of more importance than one nation's interests.
1) Are you saying that if Iraq has WMD then we would be justified in going in? It sounds like you are.
2) You say that we should not fight in order to preserve world stability but at the begining of your post you talk about the fact that terrorists may still come after us. This is a contradiction. How can there be stability in the world while we are at risk of WMD attacks against us or our allies?

You seem to have talked yourself into a cirlce. On this last one.

Have a good day guys. I think this is a good discussion that needs to happen.
 
TXCAP4228 said:
This post is directed to Archer but many of his points have been stated by others so in that sense I am responding to those folks as well.
Could you summarize this into a paragraph or two?!
 
Asking for evidence

Ok, I just got this off of CNN.com. This is a quote from Ari Fleischer.

Fleischer also said the United States has evidence of contacts between Iraqi officials and Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network "going back for quite a long time." Senior al Qaeda detainees captured in the war on terror have said Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in its chemical weapons development.

"If you are waiting for the smoking gun, the problem is, when you see the smoke coming out of the gun, it's too late -- the damage has been done," Fleischer said.

For the link to the article Click Here.

Lot's of people keep saying that involvement in Iraq is not the war on terror, and lots of people say there's no proof. The day is coming when we will see evidence that links Iraq and Al Quaeda, along with broader evidence of Iraq's non-compliance on WMD's.
 
Good news!
It looks like the USAF pilots will have somewhere to take-off and land, and be able to lend a hand in the liberation of Iraq.

With the AF helping out maybe the Navy and Marine pilots will get a chance to get some chow between launches from the boat (mobile platforms of power projection).

from the San Francisco Chronicle
27 Jan 2003


QUIET ALLIES

Positions among Arab nations:

-- Saudi Arabia -- Official opposition to U.S. war on Iraq is weakening. Officials have told Washington that it can use the huge, state-of-the-art Prince Bandar Air Base to attack Iraq -- although they haven't defined the extent of such use.

-- Jordan -- Denies that it will allow U.S. forces to use bases in an attack. But it is an open secret that U.S. Special Forces are being allowed to stage undercover operations from there.

-- Qatar -- Despite longtime good relations with Saddam Hussein, Qatar has thrown its lot in with Washington, hosting U.S. military planning headquarters and playing a role behind a recent attempt to encourage Hussein to resign.

-- Kuwait -- After a tentative rapprochement with Iraq last year, Kuwait has swung fully behind the American line, with thousands of U.S. troops and more every day being stationed there.

-- Syria -- A major economic ally of Hussein, Syria has criticized U.S. war plans but voted in favor of the U.N. Security Council resolution 1441 that authorized the return of U.N. arms inspectors to Iraq.

-- Iran -- The longtime enemy of Iraq is taking an equivocal stand, refusing to allow U.S. troops on its territory but allowing Shiite rebels to operate out of Iranian territory.

-- Turkey -- The population is strongly against U.S. war, but the government is leaning toward allowing U.S. planes and troops to use the all- important bases at Incirlik and other locations.

-- United Arab Emirates -- A low-profile U.S. ally, with small American military bases.

-- Oman -- A close U.S. ally, with large American and British bases.

-- Bahrain -- With a restless Shiite population, the tiny island nation is not expected to play a major role in an invasion despite its large U.S. Navy base.
 
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Attention Leftist Marxist Pigs

Stop bemoaning the fact that not all will share your wider liberal analysis of the war. Greens, socialists, anarchists etc. have always been the "vanguard" of social change -- the spearheads as it were of positions that people such as you can come along and safely adopt when the coast is clear. Accept that this is happening just as it did with Vietnam, abortion, civil rights etc
Liberals' greatest temptation is analysis without action.
The left and/or liberals have absolutely no moral legitimacy in my mind. The Bush administration is not "evil" as those on the left would carelessly assert. You can disagree with the administration's policies, but as soon as your leftist cohorts tell me that Bush is evil I have completely tuned you out. It's not that I endorse everything that comes out of this administration (indeed, some of Bush's harshest critics are on the right). I simply have no respect for someone who thinks Bush is a greater threat to America or the world than the dictators of Iraq, Iran and North Korea.
Liberals: get a grip on reality. Repudiate the idiots that claim to speak in your name, and you'll find that ordinary Americans will actually begin to listen to your arguments. If you can't do that, then prepare to be a minority party for the next generation. It really is that simple.
The left's overwhelming problem is the demise of communism. The great socialist Utopia was the core of leftist ideology and it is now gone, to be replaced with -- what? The truth is that nothing has replaced the obsession of the left with Utopia.
To an even greater degree, the obsession with the language of the 1930s labor union movement has left the Democratic Party in the position of advocating the ridiculous. Thus, we constantly hear talk about the travails of the poor couched in the language of revolution. The average poor person in the U.S. now has a color TV, a late model car, a decent apartment and a problem with obesity. How long can the left and the Democratic Party continue to ignore this reality?
The left is completely bankrupt. I suggest that the best thing the left and the Democratic Party can do is to remain silent until it has thought of something to say.

Hippie
 
Re: Attention Leftist Marxist Pigs

Hippie said:
The Bush administration is not "evil" as those on the left would carelessly assert.
I never said they were evil...just stupid.

I wish we could elect a president who has everything:

George I: terriffic foreign policy, no domestic policy.
Slick Willie: terriffic domestic policy, no foreign policy.
George II: no policies of any kind.
 
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