Bring Back People on furlough

[Captainzero1]

Has it been discussed at NJA, Flops or CitationAir for the pilots still on property to take a smalll paycut to bring some guys back. A longtime friend of mine was furloughed by NJA and he his having a difficult time in this job market. I don't want to start any issues just wondering if it was ever discussed to help out.

 

[rigger]

Has it been discussed at NJA, Flops or CitationAir for the pilots still on property to take a smalll paycut to bring some guys back. A longtime friend of mine was furloughed by NJA and he his having a difficult time in this job market. I don't want to start any issues just wondering if it was ever discussed to help out.

At ca they determined it was less about money and more about the right size for the ac they had left. A pay cut has been taken anyway infact twice....although they call it a" raise that's not what was expected" not a pay cut noooooo

 

[brokeflyer]

no pilot makes enough to be able to afford a pay cut.

now if management took a 1% cut, you'd be amazed how many REAL jobs that could save for people who actually do work.

 

[Helmsalee]

Why do people still think that pay cuts equal jobs? Jobs are based on how much work there is. If you take a cut, there are still too many bodies. Does not work. Never has, never will.
Helm

 

[Mach92]

Has it been discussed at NJA, Flops or CitationAir for the pilots still on property to take a smalll paycut to bring some guys back. A longtime friend of mine was furloughed by NJA and he his having a difficult time in this job market. I don't want to start any issues just wondering if it was ever discussed to help out.

No paycuts

 

[jtf]

NJA did the reduced schedules and other assorted measures to save jobs for about a year, ending about a year ago. It worked for the old CEO, but still cost more than furloughing so the new guy got out the ax. It won't be happening again any time soon at NJA. Unfortunately it will be a long furlough, even for the most senior of those furloughed. I wish your friend luck finding something else.

 

[fischman]

Why can pilots not figure out that concessions don't save jobs???

Here's how concessions work:

Management: "We can't afford to keep all these people. We need to furlough 100 pilots or shut the doors."

Pilots: "We are afraid of you and losing our pitiful income. We will vote in a pay cut."

Management: "Thank you. You have saved the company."

Bean counter: "Hey Boss Man. I know how to save some money. We currently are staffed at 2000 pilots. We only need 1850."

Management: "SWEET! We'll furlough 150 pilots and save big bucks!"

Board of Directors: "Mr. CEO, you have done incredible work by lowering overhead by cutting salaries and reducing the workforce. Way to trim the fat!!! Here's a $500,000 Christmas bonus. Great work!"

Furloughed guy: "If I hadn't voted yes on those concessions I'd have $xxxx more money in the checkbook. I would have been furloughed anyway. WHY DID I DO THAT??? I'm such a fool."

Management: "Does that BMW for the summer home come in red?"




Get a clue. Concessions DO NOT SAVE JOBS. The instant you give management ANYTHING, you will NEVER see it back.

 

[Dooker]

Good luck getting the OT prostitutes at Flexjet to take pay cuts.

Half these guys are living paycheck to paycheck.

Pilots and money. So sad.

 

[FCNelson]

Has it been discussed at NJA, Flops or CitationAir for the pilots still on property to take a smalll paycut to bring some guys back. A longtime friend of mine was furloughed by NJA and he his having a difficult time in this job market. I don't want to start any issues just wondering if it was ever discussed to help out.

With due respect and sympathy for your friend, I am certain he should be able to find something in this economy to pay the bills. It might not be flying, but Home Depot, Lowes, CostCo, etc, offer decent managerial track entry level positions. And not just those places, there are plenty of jobs, it just depends on how hard you want to work.

At least he has a seniority number for an industry leading company to go back to. I know a lot of guys who are doing a heck of a lot worse than that!

 

[gunfyter]

I believe that there will be hiring at the airlines such that all the furloughed pilots will eventually go to a far far better place.

I mean I think people won't want to come back to the fracs .... Even folks who are junior SICs at fracs today will be putting in apps at the majors... where they can make more money....

That might trigger recalls at the fracs once that happens but once the recalled become current ... they will go to the airlines.

The long rumored pilot shortage may actually be coming because nobody is flight training and you need more hours to hire 121. This is the calm before the storm....

--> Crystal ball off.

 

[OPECJet]

With due respect and sympathy for your friend, I am certain he should be able to find something in this economy to pay the bills. It might not be flying, but Home Depot, Lowes, CostCo, etc, offer decent managerial track entry level positions. And not just those places, there are plenty of jobs, it just depends on how hard you want to work.

That's what I thought until applying to all those places you list. All the applications are done on the internet now. At Home Depot, all the apps go to HR in Atlanta, and they send to the stores the apps they feel will work the best. Getting face time with management won''t do you any good there. Costco is the same, but I was initially offered an interview to fold clothes from meeting one of the managers. That offer went away later. Sam's Club was on the list right after that. No manager would come to the service desk to speak with me, as I was told through the person working the desk they were going to be starting layoffs on 12/26. WalMart did pretty much the same thing, but face to face at least.

Here's my favorite. I applied for a CSR job with Signature in HSV. I've flown aircraft based there for years before getting on with the airlines / NJA. I know most of the people working in there. One of the managers told me they'd ask the HR people in Orlando to pull my app and to expect a call. I got one about a week later and was asked to take an online eval within 48 hours. The morning after taking it, I got an email saying I wouldn't get an interview as they had chosen candidates "more qualified". Calls to the local manager have gone unreturned, with his voicemail stating he's in the office all week.

On that note, for those of you who can, make Signature a minimum uplift / fuel around FBO. Apparently a pilot is good enough to buy gas from them, but not qualified to work the desk. Might just have to post this on the corporate forum as well.

Back to the original topic.... Fischman is dead nuts accurate on his statement.

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Here's my favorite. I applied for a CSR job with Signature in HSV. I've flown aircraft based there for years before getting on with the airlines / NJA. I know most of the people working in there. One of the managers told me they'd ask the HR people in Orlando to pull my app and to expect a call. I got one about a week later and was asked to take an online eval within 48 hours. The morning after taking it, I got an email saying I wouldn't get an interview as they had chosen candidates "more qualified". Calls to the local manager have gone unreturned, with his voicemail stating he's in the office all week.

On that note, for those of you who can, make Signature a minimum uplift / fuel around FBO. Apparently a pilot is good enough to buy gas from them, but not qualified to work the desk. Might just have to post this on the corporate forum as well.

Back to the original topic.... Fischman is dead nuts accurate on his statement.

Are you kidding? I sympathize with your jobless plight as I have been there before. However, what makes you think that you're more qualified than someone you don't know about just because you've regularly bought fuel and complained about the late arrival of your coffee, ice and newspapers? I am a loyal customer to my local deli, but that doesn't make me feel more qualified to make pastrami than some other deli candidate that I don't even know. Sure, a frac/corporate pilot can give a valuable perspective on FBO customer service. But that doesn't mean you're an expert and it certainly doesn't mean that you're more qualified by default than someone with FBO customer service experience.

Perhaps the manager didn't return your call because he picked up on your sense of entitlement and hint of arrogance.

Anyway, good luck on your crusade for minimum uplift at Signature boycott. You'll need it because there will be zero participation.

(if a similar post by you is in the Corporate forum, I'll reply there as well)

 

[OPECJet]

Are you kidding? I sympathize with your jobless plight as I have been there before. However, what makes you think that you're more qualified than someone you don't know about just because you've regularly bought fuel and complained about the late arrival of your coffee, ice and newspapers? I am a loyal customer to my local deli, but that doesn't make me feel more qualified to make pastrami than some other deli candidate that I don't even know. Sure, a frac/corporate pilot can give a valuable perspective on FBO customer service. But that doesn't mean you're an expert and it certainly doesn't mean that you're more qualified by default than someone with FBO customer service experience.

Perhaps the manager didn't return your call because he picked up on your sense of entitlement and hint of arrogance.

Anyway, good luck on your crusade for minimum uplift at Signature boycott. You'll need it because there will be zero participation.

(if a similar post by you is in the Corporate forum, I'll reply there as well)

Maybe I left out the part where I worked at two other FBO's doing the same job before. Have you worked in a deli?

 

[BornAgainPagan]

Maybe I left out the part where I worked at two other FBO's doing the same job before. Have you worked in a deli?

No, you didn't mention your FBO experience. Nevertheless, your sense of entitlement is still empty. Perhaps, in their opinion, they found a more qualified candidate for the open position. Again, maybe they detected the attitude you projected in these last posts, I don't know. The point is that to try to organize a boycott because another candidate was selected over you is arrogant and nonsensical. People get selected over other people for jobs all of the time, it's a fact of life. Boo friggin' hoo! Deal with it.

Heck, if I tried to organize a boycott on every company that didn't hire me, I would have gone insane.

Nope, I never had a deli job. However, if I did have deli experience and was turned down for a subsequent deli job, I wouldn't whine and cry about it on an aviation message board.

 

[captain007]

To the NJA pilots that were Furloughed and still out of work

Keep applying places and try to keep your heads up. I was able to just land a flying job that could turn into a dream Career. Right when I thought it was going to be impossible to get a pilot job in today's industry, I got the call.

Keep at it!!


I Hope the best for you and your Family.

 

[727C47]

kalitta,and usajet are hiring,its freight,tough lifestyle,awesome flying.

 

[airjackson]

Heck, if I tried to organize a boycott on every company that didn't hire me, I would have gone insane.

Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

On that note, for those of you who can, make Signature a minimum uplift / fuel around FBO. Apparently a pilot is good enough to buy gas from them, but not qualified to work the desk.

I've got no beef with that at all... PM me some details. Without a doubt, if you are qualified for that job, you should have gotten it.

I feel your pain. My wife with a MA in Aviation Science from Purdue couldn't even get a call back for a part time desk job at LandMark! Trust me... they've paid for it 50X over.

Total, complete BS on this one, but I'm not surprised.

 

[OPECJet]

kalitta,and usajet are hiring,its freight,tough lifestyle,awesome flying.

Haven't heard anything from Kalitta, but NG will be on the receiving end of a beer (or beverage of his choice) from me for what he's done to help guys get hired there, even if I'm not one of them. Class act!

 

[ozpilot]

NG just came back to the line. Your right, he is a class act! If I see him on the road before you do I'll gladly by him a beverage of his choice on behalf of the pilots he has helped.

 

[Blueridgeflyer]

Even folks who are junior SICs at fracs today will be putting in apps at the majors... where they can make more money....

The long rumored pilot shortage may actually be coming because nobody is flight training and you need more hours to hire 121. This is the calm before the storm....

--> Crystal ball off.

Potentially more money....but who's to say that NJA won’t be the next golden goose over the next 25 - 30 years? We simply can’t predict one way or the other. You wisely refer to the new the new 121 regs and a projected crimp to demand, all of which stands to benefit our profession in terms of future compensation. NJA will be right in the mix on this, as it will be their desire to attract quality applicants. Granted there will be some FOs that will jump ship, but I personally can’t rationalize such a move based on a couple of very important criteria..



1) Basing choices --don’t want to move to an undesirable part of the country just because I’m junior at Brand X. Been there done that at my previous 121. Yes I could commute but screw that.



2) Unwilling to walk away from 5+ yrs of longevity and voluntarily downgrade secondary benefits such as vacation that are tied to this.



3) Unwilling to trade my low 2000ish seniority number post NJI integration for 7700 (SWA), 11,200 (AA), or 12,300 (DL).



4) Unwilling to take a hit on my W2, that in all likelihood would take 5+ years to recover on average at a quality 121 carrier. It could be argued that NJA would begin upgrading SICs in that time frame, so it would be a financial wash at great loss to seniority.



5) Looking at the past 10 years at NJA in terms of increased compensation and contractual enhancements gives me reason to feel bullish on the future.

 

[gunfyter]

I'll drink to that.:beer:

 

[cldsfr79]

Here's an idea to bring back the furloughed guys. We need to create some sort of retirement plan. I'm not talking about a pension because I think those are a drain on the company, I'm thinking more on the lines of a golden handshake.

Most guys wont retire because they will go from $100k+ a year to social security and a moderate pension for some. That doesn't sound to appetizing.

Maybe for the guys 60 and a above they can be offered a severance package ($$$) based on the amount of years worked plus life time supplemental health benefits. Even if the company shells out a half million to a guy who worked 10+ years they will save money in the long run by hiring/bring back an FO at half the CA pay rate.

I think if this occurred the furloughed guys would be able to come back quickly as the old guys punch out.

Now if you state that NJA tried this prior to the furlough and it didn't have to many takes, I believe: 1. It was to little money and benefits 2. Everyone's 401k was in the toilet and the money offered may not have been enough to cover even their loses. Fast forward a year or so later, the stock market is a bit better gaining almost 5000 points in 2 years, 401ks looking a bit better, and if a little bit more money was tossed at these guys, they will jump.

 

[gret]

Don't know where to start, but it won't work and any CEO that even considered something like this would be shot on the spot. The day of full employment in the aviation industry is long gone and hopefully will never return. The US is a capitalist society and there is no obligation on businesses to make sure everyone has a job.


Regarding your proposal-

• Where is the cash going to come from to pay two pilots?
• Why would the company want to load up the liability side of their balance sheet with all of these promised benefits?
• The income statement hit would have the banks and shareholders looking for someone to knock off.
• Why would somebody age 60, who enjoys their job, take this package?

You're asking management to blow up the company so furloughed pilots can fly again?

There isn't a silver bullet that is going to fix the furlough issue that impacts business aviation, as well as most other industries. We experienced a bubble during 2005-2007, everybody thought they were geniuses, and now we're paying the price. Aviation, housing, construction, banking, autos, etc all over heated and recovery only comes with time and some pain.

Companies will not hire pilots until there is an increase in demand for planes.

 

[jonjuan]

Even if the company shells out a half million to a guy who worked 10+ years they will save money in the long run by hiring/bring back an FO at half the CA pay rate.

So using your theory, say the company offers this deal to 300 CAs. Are you saying that they would simply get rid of 300 CA jobs without upgrading 300 F/Os to take their positions and corresponding salaries?
Heck, why not just offer the same $500K to the bottom 300 F/Os and replace them with furloughees? Sounds like a great deal. :laugh:

 

[linder]

Maybe I left out the part where I worked at two other FBO's doing the same job before. Have you worked in a deli?

Maybe you left out the part that Signature knows that any unemployed pilot they hire is going to spend a lot of time asking the customers about any possible job openings. I've seen that a lot in the past.

 

[OPECJet]

Maybe you left out the part that Signature knows that any unemployed pilot they hire is going to spend a lot of time asking the customers about any possible job openings. I've seen that a lot in the past.

That is by no means a given. Certainly a possibility, but turnover seems to be fairly high in that job anyhow based on the number of new faces I used to see there. Only a few have been constant.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Potentially more money....but who's to say that NJA won’t be the next golden goose over the next 25 - 30 years? We simply can’t predict one way or the other. You wisely refer to the new the new 121 regs and a projected crimp to demand, all of which stands to benefit our profession in terms of future compensation. NJA will be right in the mix on this, as it will be their desire to attract quality applicants. Granted there will be some FOs that will jump ship, but I personally can’t rationalize such a move based on a couple of very important criteria..



1) Basing choices --don’t want to move to an undesirable part of the country just because I’m junior at Brand X. Been there done that at my previous 121. Yes I could commute but screw that.
3) Unwilling to trade my low 2000ish seniority number post NJI integration for 7700 (SWA), 11,200 (AA), or 12,300 (DL).

The NJI merger has given us a more liberal HBA system which may bring back all of the furloughed pilots. Since taking advantage of the HBA system over 5 years ago, the amount of flying I have done it exactly 62.347% of what it was my last year in the base. I've run the numbers several times. Compared to the penultimate year in my previous base: 64.44%
Max: 64.984%
Min: 60.002%
No matter how I run the numbers, HBA pilots fly less and if their experiences are like mine: There are no paycuts associated with using an HBA.

It won't take many more people using the HBA system instead of driving hours to work for the company to need all of the pilots it put out on the street.

 

[imacdog]

I'm not that optimistic about the impact of opening up some HBA to a small number of pilots on property with regard to recalls, but it is certainly good for all NJA pilots to have access to those airports now.

 

[Jack Campbell]

The NJI merger has given us a more liberal HBA system which may bring back all of the furloughed pilots. Since taking advantage of the HBA system over 5 years ago, the amount of flying I have done it exactly 62.347% of what it was my last year in the base. I've run the numbers several times. Compared to the penultimate year in my previous base: 64.44%
Max: 64.984%
Min: 60.002%
No matter how I run the numbers, HBA pilots fly less and if their experiences are like mine: There are no paycuts associated with using an HBA.

It won't take many more people using the HBA system instead of driving hours to work for the company to need all of the pilots it put out on the street.

Sounds great, but that's not what a lot of us are hearing about recalls. I'll be surprised if our recall dates aren't "updated" early next year as the first expected recall date approaches. Its great they opened up HBAs for everyone on the property, though!