Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Brace For Turbulence At American

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web

AA767AV8TOR

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Posts
258
Brace for turbulence at American


By TREBOR BANSTETTER
The criticism against Ralph Hunter and his colleagues is fierce and relentless.

They’re out of touch with rank-and-file pilots. They’re isolating themselves in clubby headquarters suites. They focus on personal enrichment rather than the well-being of the airline’s pilots.

One might almost think they’re airline executives rather than labor union leaders.

Hunter, president of the American Airlines pilots union, is facing a stiff re-election bid, as are several other top officers. Their opponents have been hurling the type of invective Hunter has regularly aimed at airline executives in the past year.

"It’s been hard to tell the difference between American management and the [union’s] leadership," said Karl Schricker, an American captain based at Dallas/Fort Worth Airport who is vying for Hunter’s seat. "They’ve represented management more than pilots over the last two years."

The elections at the Allied Pilots Association, which will probably be determined in June, come at a crucial time for Fort Worth-based American Airlines.

The union is negotiating a new contract to replace one that will become amendable next year. Pilots are eager to get back the $660 million in annual wages and benefits they gave up in 2003 when American was facing bankruptcy, while executives are determined to keep labor costs under control.

Analysts say the union’s leadership will help determine whether the talks go smoothly or result in increased hostility among employees. The labor group, which can affect a wide range of issues including international flying and fuel conservation, could also play a critical role in any merger that involves American in coming years.

"The union leadership can make a huge difference, a material difference, at American," said Stuart Klaskin, an industry consultant with Klaskin, Kushner and Co. in Coral Gables, Fla. "It’s something that American is paying very close attention to."

It’s no surprise that criticism of American’s executives by union officials has increased recently as the election heats up, longtime industry analyst Darryl Jenkins said.

"The elections increase the rhetoric, to be sure," he said. "The unions are on the warpath."

After several years of improvement, relations between labor and management at American have crumbled. Employees are especially unhappy with a slate of stock-based bonuses for top managers and executives.

Hunter says that he has helped keep the airline out of bankruptcy and return to profitability, putting pilots in a position where they can demand a return of the wages and benefits they lost in 2003.

"It’s easy to come and throw rocks at the people who have been in charge during one of the toughest times in the history of the airline business," he said.

But he is nonetheless under pressure to demonstrate his credibility as an aggressive leader willing to take on management. All of his opponents are running on similar platforms alleging that Hunter and his fellow union officers -- Vice President Sam Bertling and Secretary-Treasurer Jim Eaton -- have been too friendly with airline executives at the expense of pilots.

"They pander to management," said Lloyd Hill, an international Boeing 767 captain based in Miami. "They’re not solely focused on what’s best for the membership."

Early voting indicates that Hill is Hunter’s strongest opponent. In the first round of voting last month, which determined the candidates who will be on the ballot, Hunter received 1,117 votes while Hill garnered 891.

Steve Roach, a San Francisco-based captain, received 652 votes. Schricker garnered 499.

The Allied Pilots Association, which represents about 9,000 working American pilots, as well as 2,800 furloughed pilots, elects its leaders every three years. This year''s election will be monitored by the U.S. Department of Labor after complaints about electronic balloting in the 2004 vote.

Hunter expects to face one of his challengers in a runoff scheduled for June.

"This thing is clearly teeing up for a runoff," he acknowledged. "Right now my opponents'' supporters are highly energized."

He predicts he will prevail in general voting, which tends to have a higher turnout than the initial round.

The union’s top jobs pay well. During the 2006 fiscal year, for example, Hunter was paid $130,000 by the union, including a $98,000 salary and more than $30,000 in expenses, according to documents filed with the Department of Labor. That’s in addition to his compensation from American Airlines for flying.

Too cozy?

The arguments against Hunter stem, in part, from his efforts in 2004 and 2005 to work with airline executives to improve operations. The much-touted "pull together, win together" initiative, spearheaded by CEO Gerard Arpey, encouraged labor and management to work together to improve efficiency, cut costs and increase revenue.

Under Hunter’s leadership, pilots worked to reduce fuel consumption, helped lobby Congress for pension reform and agreed to fly a route between Chicago and Delhi, India, even though flights that long weren’t allowed under their contract.

But the management bonus issue, which surfaced in early 2006, has quelled much of the appetite for cooperation. The annual bonuses, which amounted to $95 million last year for about 1,000 top managers and are likely to be even larger this year, appalled many pilots, who had been working under reduced salaries and benefits since 2003.

Hunter argues that American’s executives failed, not the union. He was willing to give cooperation a chance until the bonuses were paid out, he said.

"We took a very large step in a very nontraditional way to explore another way to do business," he said. "We did it with a firm belief that it was the best for the pilots."

It failed, he said, "because management didn’t recognize that they had to stay on that path as well."

Hunter’s opponents also cite his involvement with the 2003 concessions. He was on the negotiating committee at the time, and is closely aligned with John Darrah, then the union’s president.

Roach, for example, said the 2003 contracts should have mandated a return to full pay once the airline began making money again.

"It was extremely bad, naive, amateur business," Roach said.

Hunter refuses to apologize for the 2003 deal, saying it was the only way to keep American out of bankruptcy. That saved the pilots'' pensions, he said, and now their salaries are higher than those of pilots at Northwest, Delta and United, which all filed for bankruptcy.

He also points out that his first union job was working on the strike preparedness committee, and that he was the union’s vice president in 1997 during a strike over a new contract. "My history and my roots in this organization are in strike preparedness," he said.

Hunter has taken an increasingly tough stance publicly. He recently told television reporters that the union could strike next year if pilots don’t see wages return. And he has organized an April 18 rally and march on American headquarters to protest the latest bonuses, which are to be paid that day.

"I don’t think there are really that many differences" between the candidates when it comes to confronting management, he said.

Hunter’s opponents have also criticized the union’s progress in the current contract talks, and they have alleged that the labor group’s upper echelons have been distant and detached from the rank and file.

"It’s time to take back the APA," said Pete Oborski, who is running for vice president on a slate with Schricker. "It’s hard to follow the guys who led the retreat into the charge."
 
Lasting impact

Analysts say the results could set the tone for labor relations at American for years to come.

"Even if Hunter is re-elected, the allegations that he was too close to management may well affect how he deals with them down the line," said Klaskin, the consultant. "He’ll have to prove that he’s a hard-liner."

That means a more difficult job for American executives, who want to improve pilot productivity and keep costs in check, Klaskin said. The airline also wants to avoid the type of labor disputes that have wreaked havoc in the past.

The pilots'' election isn’t the first time union leaders have been attacked for working with management. In 2004, the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association attempted to take over representation of American’s mechanics, who are members of the Transport Workers Union.

AMFA supporters cited the 2003 concessions as their chief issue. Their effort failed after the National Mediation Board said they failed to collect enough signatures to force a vote.

Consultant Jenkins predicted that labor relations will generally get more confrontational at American in coming years regardless of the election’s outcome.

"I think we’re going to have some very contentious times ahead of us," Jenkins said.

A TROUBLED HISTORY

American Airlines'' pilots union has a history of frequent -- and sometimes costly -- clashes with airline management.

Feb. 14, 1997

American pilots strike amid an impasse in contract negotiations. President Clinton orders pilots back to work after seven minutes.

February 1999

Pilots stage a 10-day sickout to protest American’s purchase of Reno Air, stranding thousands of passengers. A judge fines the union $45.5 million for the illegal action.

April 2003

CEO Don Carty is forced to resign after an uproar by union leaders, including the pilots, over a slate of executive bonuses and pension perks that are disclosed just after employees approve concessions

September 2006

Pilots begin contract talks with American, and leaders vow to regain the wages that were given up in 2003.

January 2007

American shelves a bid to fly from Dallas/Fort Worth Airport to Beijing after union leaders refuse to approve the route, which is longer than allowed under the pilots'' contract.

April 2007

Pilots plan a rally and march on American headquarters to protest a slate of stock-based bonuses for upper management. Union leaders stress that pilots must work if scheduled.
 
Admittedly a minor issue (or none at all) for AA pilots, but lets also throw in the note that apparently Mr. Hunter dispises Eagle pilots (why, I don't know). In an effort to demonstrate that, he intends to argue that Eagle flow-thru pilots who already have their seniority numbers at AA, will disappear when that agreement expires in May 2008.

They've been withheld by AMR to complete their lock-in and Ralph intends to attempt to capitalize on that and turn it into a unilateral denial of their seniority rights already earned.

Strong liklihood of faliure predicted (and a corresponding waste of effort, time and membership resources, to boot).

Yep, an ethically bankrupt Scumbag.
 
Last edited:
Reading that makes me so glad I'm not there anymore...good luck guys, I hope you get everything you're looking for. But something tells me that even if you do, you'll still be the most miserable pilot group on the planet.
 
Reading that makes me so glad I'm not there anymore...good luck guys, I hope you get everything you're looking for. But something tells me that even if you do, you'll still be the most miserable pilot group on the planet.


Breathe in...breathe out

Breathe in...breathe out

Serenity Now!!!

Oh wait, you're Senior to me. Vent all you want!
 
eaglefly--I think the drive to have the flowthrough's with seniority numbers disappear when Sup. W/Letter 3 dies stems from Eagle MEC's effort to have the transition classes for the former TWA people declared "newhire" class and trigger the flowthroughs to AA.

On topic: Arpey deserves every bit of bad press he gets from this. AA management single-handedly destroyed ANY hope of taking babysteps toward decent (good would be too strong a word) labor relations and the resulting effeciencies that relationship would have generated. TC
 
eaglefly--I think the drive to have the flowthrough's with seniority numbers disappear when Sup. W/Letter 3 dies stems from Eagle MEC's effort to have the transition classes for the former TWA people declared "newhire" class and trigger the flowthroughs to AA.

Regardless of anyones opinion on the definition of a "new hire class", why would any union not honor the basic rights of pilots already on their seniority list? APA can dislike Eagle ALPA as much as they want, but to mess with pilots already on their seniority list sets an extremely bad precedent for all unions and the whole premise of seniority.

By what method would APA remove these pilots from their seniority list?

If they do attempt to remove these pilots there would surely be a DFR lawsuit.

Why not just arbitrate the disagreement over the definition of a "new hire class"?
 
"Regardless of anyones opinion on the definition of a "new hire class", why would any union not honor the basic rights of pilots already on their seniority list? APA can dislike Eagle ALPA as much as they want, but to mess with pilots already on their seniority list sets an extremely bad precedent for all unions and the whole premise of seniority."

you may want to ask some flowback's their opinion of treatment by ALPA EGL MEC/Eagle and then re-think your statement....
 
you may want to ask some flowback's their opinion of treatment by ALPA EGL MEC/Eagle and then re-think your statement....
I hear a lot of talk from second hand sources about how flowbacks were jerked around by Eagle ALPA. I can tell you that all I've ever noticed is how almost everything done by Eagle ALPA during the last 2 years had been to satisfy those very flowbacks. MIDT, seniority shuffle for TWA guys, lump sum payouts, etc.

But before this thread turns into an Eagle/Flowback debate, let me say that I hope AA pilots get their money back. Both the ones at Eagle and the ones at AA.
 
"Regardless of anyones opinion on the definition of a "new hire class", why would any union not honor the basic rights of pilots already on their seniority list? APA can dislike Eagle ALPA as much as they want, but to mess with pilots already on their seniority list sets an extremely bad precedent for all unions and the whole premise of seniority."​

you may want to ask some flowback's their opinion of treatment by ALPA EGL MEC/Eagle and then re-think your statement....

afres bum,

What does the treatment of any flowback by the EGL ALPA MEC have to do with pilots already on the AA seniority list?

Are you actually saying that it is OK in any situation to challenge the basic premise of seniority?

Is it OK to have a resolution to just remove some Air Cal, Reno, TWA pilots from the AA seniority list?

Think about what you are saying.

Seniority is a fundamental basic right of all pilots on any union seniority list.
 
I hear a lot of talk from second hand sources about how flowbacks were jerked around by Eagle ALPA. I can tell you that all I've ever noticed is how almost everything done by Eagle ALPA during the last 2 years had been to satisfy those very flowbacks. MIDT, seniority shuffle for TWA guys, lump sum payouts, etc.

This started when Eagle ALPA initially opposed the TWA pilots flowing back at all! Because there was an award that the TWA pilots could flow, they were then allowed a "reshuffling" due to Eagle hiring F/O's during that time period-- yielding the flowbacks seniority being adjusted for "Date of Furlough." Then consider a watered-down fight by ALPA for the back pay that was due.

One ruling by an arbiter initiated many of the later arbitrations.

stlflyguy
 
Cleared Direct--I believe APA (and maybe AMR--not sure) consider the "seniority numbers" assigned to the flowthroughs to be "places on the list reserved for flowthroughs" rather than ironclad seniority numbers.

As usual, it will be resolved in court or by an arbitrator. Way the heck above our pay grade. TC
 
Brace for turbulence at American


By TREBOR BANSTETTER


The Allied Pilots Association, which represents about 9,000 working American pilots, as well as 2,800 furloughed pilots...

I thought the APA was on the record in stating that the union had zero obligations towards furloughed pilots.
 
The AE guys want to play it both ways. After listening to all the vitriol and venom directed at flowbacks (I chose NOT to flowback), it sounds like what goes around, comes around.

Let flowback die as well as flowthru. Since AE pilots hate APA pilots so much, why would they want to come here anyway. Delta's hiring. Go there.
 
Last edited:
Cleared Direct--I believe APA (and maybe AMR--not sure) consider the "seniority numbers" assigned to the flowthroughs to be "places on the list reserved for flowthroughs" rather than ironclad seniority numbers.

As usual, it will be resolved in court or by an arbitrator. Way the heck above our pay grade. TC

AMR has already been on record stating that the seniority numbers are still good even after the expiration of Supp. W/Letter 3. In fact they have hired Bain and Company consulting group who have determined that Eagle is at a cost disadvantage because of the high seniority of their pilots. They want to force senior flow through Eagle pilots out of Eagle and over to AA at probation pay.

If you look at the AA seniority list the flow through pilots are assigned a real occupational date of hire. It is also clearly defined as a occupational date of hire in Supp W/Letter 3. The seniority numbers are iron clad, and I would actually be surprised if APA would even contest the validity of the seniority numbers. I suspect that APA is more likely to arbitrate the ability of an AA seniority number holding Eagle flow through pilot to actually transfer to AA after the expiration of Supp W/Letter 3.
 
The AE guys want to play it both ways. After listening to all the vitriol and venom directed at flowbacks (I chose NOT to flowback), it sounds like what goes around, comes around.

Let flowback die as well as flowthru. Since AE pilots hate APA pilots so much, why would they want to come here anyway. Delta's hiring. Go there.

It is more like APA wants it both ways. Maximize the flowback, and not honor seniority numbers already assigned. There are a lot of flowbacks that have actually had no problems at Eagle. The negative stories spread because they are more interesting.

It is more like AA pilots hate Eagle pilots because they think they took their flying.

I will say that Supp W/Letter 3 should die though. If either party wants something new it would have to have better language to protect the true intent.
 
Guys and gals-

AA pilots' relationship with AE pilots is NO DIFFERENT than any relationship between a major airline pilot group and its regional codeshare affiliate pilot group. Believe me when I say that, back in my ACA days, EVERY UAL pilot would give me some kind of harassment when jumpseating on them, regarding RJs and taking their flying. They came off as a bunch of arrogant asses. And guess what, I sympathized with them because I realized the threat.

This difference of opinion is a little more personal due to the flowthrough/flowback deal. It is very similar to the dissent I was told about at Coex with the CAL flowbacks. Even though theirs was a different deal, the Coex guys were still livid about losing their CA seats. Eventually, things smoothed out, and now the flowthrough is dead. When it died, guys that had CAL numbers got preferential interviews at CAL, and that was it. I suspect the same thing will happen here. End of story. 73
 
Hey DragnASS.......since u didnt flow ,u have no clue what went on at Eagle regarding flowthroughs....First of all AE guys dont hate AA at all...its ALWAYS been the other way around and u know that, secondly, yeah there was some bad feelings at first .......we delt with it and accepted it......Flowbies are actually a great group of people and a pleasure to fly with.....we fullfilled our obligation ,its time for AA to fullfill their's....Let them flow.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom