"Blue Ridge" pilots...

[Vector4fun]

I tend to be more cautious and I send them around all the time. If its a matter of maybe 100 feet or so i don't sweat it, but 1000feet, get ready to hit the TOGA.

Please don't think my post was directed at you; nor would I suggest you do anything else. A Supe once told me:

"Don't ever expect me to cover for you guys."

I took him at his word.

 

[AA717driver]

As for tight spacing on the runway, at STL when things were hopping, many times you'd come over the numbers as the departing aircraft was rotating.

As long as everyone knows what the deal is, it's no problem. You just can't have two sets of gear on the same runway at the same time.

Someone commented on the Citation "hovering". Just getting into corporate I'm noticing they train you to fly 150kts. on long final. No one even mentions or shows you how to keep your speed up at the busy airports. With ref speeds down in the 115 range, that will seriously screw things up in ORD, DFW, LAX...

Maybe ATC will allow passing inside the marker...TC

 

[rightrudder]

Chperplt,

did u really time how long they were on the runway? did you say to yourself " Hey, let me see how long these guys sit here? If so, what prompted you out of the blue to do this? And where did you come up with 1:52?" You seem to bull$hit a lot buddy. I'm not saying that they didnt spend too much time on the rwy, but try not to just make $hit up. J@cka$$.

Hey Nutz,

I don't know how you conduct yourself, but I always start the timer when a heavy jet is cleared for take off and I am next in line.

I want to make sure I have enough spacing. It is not unusual for someone to do this. Who's the real j@cka$$ ?

 

[Russ]

Starting the time after a heavy/75 should be considered sop.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

It is 2 min or 5 miles radar separation behind a heavy...
Read OR. And that don't mean 5 mi on your TCAS. When they clear you for takeoff, they are anticipating 5 miles at the dept end. And it works.

 

[Bandit60]

So are you saying that the plane was on the runway waiting for a waketurb. delay? From a personal position I will not enter the runway while waiting for this delay. I dont want any aircraft landing on top of me.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

If you are next for takeoff you are going to be be put into position and hold. If you don't he will either clear the next guy on the hold and put you back a ways (I would) or clear you for take off about 1 minute after he cleared the heavy for takeoff, in ANTICIPATION OF THE REQUIRED SEPARATION. If you are worried about an aircraft landing on top of you, then you have no situational awareness at all and should not be flying into any busy, congested, or complicated airports. In most busy multi-runway airport, ATL as an example, the departures go out on the in boards and the arrivals land on the outboards. Unless an emergency warrants the inboard with departures lined up, there is pretty much no chance of that happpening.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I don't know how you conduct yourself, but I always start the timer when a heavy jet is cleared for take off and I am next in line.

You time CRJ's for wake turbulence?

Well...maybe that's not a bad idea at that, depending on what you're in.

To be honest, though, I've never timed wake turb. I have, however, closely watched the wind and the heavy's flightpath.

 

[Bandit60]

If you are worried about an aircraft landing on top of you, then you have no situational awareness at all and should not be flying into any busy, congested, or complicated airports.

I do recall this accident happening. I guess 5 people had bad situational awarness. Your argurment is bull **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**. Again, I am only talking about when there is a mandatory wake turbulance delay and you know it is going to be a long one.

I think waiting off the runway is excellent situational awarness.
Maybe you dont think about the your safety or safety of your passengers but I do.

I have done this at ATL many times and the controllers were happy to comply with my request.

Maybe your the one who should not be flying

 

[Vector4fun]

Small point of information, the 7110.65 says;

Do not issue clearances to a small aircraft to taxi into position and hold on the same runway behind a departing heavy jet aircraft to apply the necessary intervals.

So if you're flying a GA aircraft, the tower should not be putting you into position to hold for Wake Turbulence behind a Heavy Jet. IIRC the wording used to be a bit more restrictive, but I could be wrong. Of course, who's to say whether the controller put you in position to apply the necessary interval, or for some other reason??

The controller must also;

When an aircraft is authorized to taxi into takeoff position to hold, inform it of the closest traffic that is cleared to land, touch-and-go, stop-and-go, or unrestricted low approach on the same runway.

I generally have no issue with a pilot that prefers not to taxi into position for a lengthy time. (> 1 minute) But then, I don't have 37 airplanes lined up on a taxiway waiting to go, (Thank God) If I'm going to put someone in position for more than a minute, I make sure and tell them there is no one on final within 10-15 miles.....

 

[Northern Lights]

Interesting picture from LGA

 

[Bandit60]

Vector4Fun

That is exactly what I am talking about. I have no problem going into position and hold as long as it is not a long one. I cannot see behind me like you can see behind me,(except for my tcas which will start to give ta's) so it is just precaution on my part. I have no intention of slowing up traffic, in most cases, some of the airplanes I fly will go faster and climb faster than any airliner out there.

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Hey Nutz,

I don't know how you conduct yourself, but I always start the timer when a heavy jet is cleared for take off and I am next in line.

I want to make sure I have enough spacing. It is not unusual for someone to do this. Who's the real j@cka$$ ?

First off.....chperplt was talking about a Blue Ridge airplane....didnt know any of their current equipment qualified as a "heavy jet".
I don't know what your RJ's climb rate is.....but we're usually off in less than 3500 and climb over everyone's wake. Guess I'm fortunate to fly something that doesn't require me to worry. I think that is a very good procedure you use.....and you're probably not a j@cka$$, but my post to chperplt was a continuation of a previous pissing match, and he is one.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

Oh sorry bandit, I see you fly LEETLE airplanes. My mistake.

 

[deez_nutz2000]

Oh sorry bandit, I see you fly LEETLE airplanes. My mistake.

Whens the last time you were above FL250? You're just pissed off at bandit 'cause you know it'll be a long-a$$ time before you go above 250 kts.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

what is YOUR problem? i don't believe i was addressing you.
kids....sheesh

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

that was for what's his nutz...not you, cherplt!

 

[Vector4fun]

Errrr, ignoring the spitballs flying around this thread...


One other thought entered my head some hours after my last post. I'm sure controllers at airports with runways used only for departures during normal ops have a different perspective regarding Taxi into Position and Hold. Just something to keep in mind.

 

[Bandit60]

DeezNuts2000

Man, You made me laugh.

As far as ATR Driver goes,That "little Jet"as you call it will smoke your butt any day of the week. The only thing that ATR can do better than me is fly slow and carry more weight

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

sigh....i could really care less about your 'jet'. you don't want to go into the hold behind someone departing, fine, don't. A controller's job is to separate traffic to the best of their ability. If he/she doesn't think there is enough room between the deptarture and the next arrival ON THE SAME RUNWAY, they won't do it. simple enough. what 'incident' are you referring too?

 

[Bandit60]

I think you have misunderstood me. I am not saying that you shouldn't go into position and hold after an airplane has departed. All I am saying, is that if it was a heavy and a mandatory wake turb delay is issued then I perfer to wait behind the line until he is ready to release me.

But I think you would agree that it isn't the best of ideas or judgements (that is what we get paid for) to sit on a runway for a long time while you know that there are airplanes landing on the same runway.

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

I see, yes a misunderstanding I think here. That is absolutely your (my) judgement. I apologise for my short sighted reply/tirade. In a single runway operation, with arrivals and departures, waiting behind the line can and is appropriate, the only thing I was getting at was a controller is anticipating on the next airplane going in the hold. When that doesn't happen it can kind of mess up plans, however they are quick to come up with a plan. I am used to the dual runway setup in ATL and was apparently thinking is this mode and stepped over the line. Again my apologies to you.


Safe and Fun flying.

 

[Anaconda]

To be honest, though, I've never timed wake turb. I have, however, closely watched the wind and the heavy's flightpath.

and you do what with this info? given the crj's lengthy takeoff and anemic climb rate, short of adjusting your lateral flight path (probably contrary to the heading that atc gave you on takeoff) what else do you do other than requesting to delay your departure?

 

[Typhoon1244]

...what else do you do other than requesting to delay your departure?

Uh, I never said I don't delay my departure. I said I don't time it.

And let's be fair: the CRJ's climb doesn't become anemic until you get to around 15,000!

 

[Anaconda]

yeah, i know realize you don't time it, but sometimes you have to wonder if all of those nice techniques for wake turb avoidance outlined in the aim are really such a great idea. after all, although the climb performance may not be THAT anemic, relative to everything else out there in the takeoff segment i don't really think it's that great. outclimb the flight path of a 757? i don't think so. sometimes it seems that time (and distance) is the only safe option.