Blown tire after 80 before V1 on short runway!

[jergbsn]

A couple of posts had said they would perfer the abort rather than Takeoff if it were on a short runway. This doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that the big 5 haven't been met(engine failure, fire, loss of directional control, TR deployment, or collision avoidance), I usually brief that I'm going to continue the TO. ON a longer runway, I may brief "we'll abort for anything up to V1". Where as on the shorter runways its "anything up to 80, the big 5 after that and up to V1". The example that FalconPilot gave had him use up nearly all the runway at Alliance. I'm sure if he had good tires and good brakes an RTO just before V1 wouldn't come close to using up 11,000 feet of runway or whatever it might be there. I don't know the Falcon 50 but that's just my guess. If he were on a 5K or 6K foot runway who knows. IMO, take it up, figure it out, and have a game plan. At least in the worst case you'll still have emergency crews ready and waiting to assist in what ever might occur.

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

Pop!

Interesting thought about the a-skid. If you're on the rim, you won't get much braking, locked wheel or not, right? How about the other, good wheel? Wouldn't you want the best braking and protection possible? You sure wouldn't want that one to blow, also.
I admit I don't know anything about your airplane, however.

If I recall correctly most a/c anti skid system works in a similar matter, using a voltage generator in each main hub and sends the information to an anti skid control box which then compares the voltage produced by each spin up and controls the amount of pressure to be released on the appropriate set until the desired voltage matches. The fact that the tire will be desintegrated will definitely have an effect on breaking distance on single wheels.

I personally have not experienced one on takeoff but if it affects directional control before V1 then I would reject the take off. If it does not, then I would press on and continue to a suitable airport with enough length and equipment to accomodate the emergency, preferrably leaving the gear extended as long as it still meets any needed climb gradient.

But thats just my humble opinion.

 

[falconpilot]

Let me clarify one thing from my previous post...

We used up all the runway because we choose to... And what I mean by that is we knew we had plenty of runway.. So in order to not do any further damage. IE Honkin on the brakes and blowing all the tires and destroying all four wheels and damaging both flaps from the tire debris... We were delicate with the brakes... But even after being delicate with them they still were extremely hot. And like I said earlier the fuse plugs blew on the good tires anyhow. But atleast it was after we stopped..

 

[Blackjet]

be sure and turn the anti-skid off.

That is extremely poor advice. The Anti-Skid computer will know that something is not right with the affected wheel and will compensate accordingy. For example, once you realized the tire was blown and you have say, 8000 feet left, would you reach up and turn the Anti-Skid off? Or under normal ops, if the LH side of the runway was wet, but the RH was dry, would you turn the Anti-Skid off?

When you blow the good tire and bend some metal, the 1st thing anyone is going to ask is, 'Tell us again why you turned off the Anti-Skid?"

DO NOT TURN THE ANTI-SKID OFF!

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

In regards to a rejected takeoff, I believe that though the anti-skid may increase stopping distance with a blown (single) tire, some manufacturers do not automatically factor the use of spoilers, T/Rs, runway gradient, and headwinds into the numbers which affords a decent margin of cushion to the ability to stop the airplane. Lockheed provides additional charts to factor the above into adjusted numbers.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

First of all, I'd like to stress the fact that I'm not second guessing or sniping at any post here. I appreciate hearing from professionals and experts in this field. I'm tryin' to learn here and I appreciate all input!
That said, I believe that taking it in the air at a speed close to V1 is USUALLY the best course. Airplanes are fractious beasts on the ground, especially at high speeds. They're built to fly and handle better in the air than at V1 speeds on a 100-150 foot runway.
PERHAPS the severe vibration from the Falcon would have diminished after rotation as the wheels spun down. PERHAPS they could have cruised around with gear down to lower the weight. PERHAPS they could have touched down on the numbers and had 11,000 feet to stop. I wasn't there, I WON"T arm-chair quarterback. Nobody got hurt, you DID GREAT!
But, in general, absent a lack of control, I believe the "go decision" close to V1 is better.
I have a lot of hours sitting on my ass in transport cat airplanes, but as you know, that is mostly JUST sitting on my ASS!
I really appreciate the hearing from you guys/girls.

 

[N60OSU]

Humor a prop driver for a bit and answer me this:

In a single tire setup could the aircraft continue to accelerate with a blown tire?

Putting aside the obvious differences between props and jets for a moment and considering their similarities, I blew a tire in a Baron just after landing and two things struck me: 1) how complete was my loss of directional control and 2) how rapidly the airplane decelerated once the tire blew. I stayed on the runway despite #1 in large part due to #2. It's possible that the airplane would have been more controllable had I been at full power rather than at idle, but I cannot be certain and hope never to find out.

In considering the situation at hand I am not certain that on takeoff, even if being at full power aided me in controlling the airplane, the Baron would continue to accelerate once a tire had blown. If not an abort would not be my choice so much as it would be thrust upon me. Not a good scenario given the accident record as it relates to high speed aborts. With respect to that a real consideration is the reserve performance of a jet compared to the Baron. In general would it be enough to accelerate the airplane to Vr?

Given the chance I would absolutely prefer to take the airplane into the air and prepare to respond to any control problems experienced on landing than react to them on the takeoff roll. If the airplanes behavior gave me too much concern about my ability to control it on landing I would consider landing with the gear up.

Depending on the will of the Bid Sheet gods I will be in a Lear quite soon so I am anxious to hear the thoughts of experienced jet guys...

 

[AngelKing]

I Have Had This Happen!!!!!! Falcon 20-5 At Afw. (alliance Fort Worth). You Do Not. I Repeat Do Not Want To Continue This Take Off At All Cost... If You Cant Stop The Airplane On A Short Runway, Then Maybe That Would Be The Only Detering Factor.. We Blew The Inside Right Main First, Which Then Caused The Outside Main To Blow For Some Reason. The Vibration Was So Intense That You Could Not Read The Instument Panel.. Plates Were Falling Out Of The Galley, Pax Were Freaked Out... Etc... We Used All 11000 Feet Of Runway Stopping It... No Tr's. The Airplane Was Full Of Fuel At The Time. There Was Flap And Gear Damage.. We Stopped And Pulled Off The Runway, And I Asked If I Could Get Out Of The Plane And Assess The Damage.. I Got Out And Walked Around To The Right Side Of The Aircraft, And Came To The Conclusion That Taxiing Any Further Was Not A Great Idea. We Shut The Plane Down Called The Fire Trucks, Due To The Fact That The Brakes Were So Hot That They Were Popping And Looked As If They Were Melting. (pieces Of The Brake Were Falling On The Ground.) Terry Bradshaw Was Our Passenger. He Got Out And Leaned Against The Left Wing Near The Door. I Told Him We Should Get Away From The Gear Just Incase One The Brakes Decided To Come Apart. About A Second Later The Heat From The Braked Caused The Fuse Plugs To Blow On The Left Gear Tires. It Scared The Pi$$ Out Of Both Me And Terry Bradshaw. That Was The First Time I Heard One Blow. Long Story Short. It Was A Big Ordeal. My Recomendation Is To If You Are Before V1, Abort At All Cost.

I had exactly the same thing happen in Guam in a Lear 36. The nose was already airborne when both right side tires blew. The nose instantly slammed back down on the ground and it was quite a ride until we finally go it stopped. Thank God, Guam has long runways. I don't add anymore to the story because it was exactly like the story above.

I am not going to say anyone should stop/go, it just depends on the conditions and the decision you make at the time. But, I can assure there will always be someone telling you what you should have done, usually while they sitting home in their lounge chair.

AK

 

[Bandit60]

I saw a cj blow a main gear tire on take off. He had no choice but to abort because he was losing directional control. The pilot did the right and only thing he could do in this particular situation.

 

[Propnose]

We're trained in the sim to abort blown tires after 80kts. They almost always give us that senario during recurrent. Even with two tires on each side we still lose the centerline when it happens (even with a blown nose wheel). Getting on the brakes and keeping it on the runway has always been possible. Although keep in mind this is in the sim - I have not had to experience a blown tire for real yet!

 

[400A]

That is extremely poor advice. The Anti-Skid computer will know that something is not right with the affected wheel and will compensate according. For example, once you realized the tire was blown and you have say, 8000 feet left, would you reach up and turn the Anti-Skid off? Or under normal ops, if the LH side of the runway was wet, but the RH was dry, would you turn the Anti-Skid off?

When you blow the good tire and bend some metal, the 1st thing anyone is going to ask is, 'Tell us again why you turned off the Anti-Skid?"

DO NOT TURN THE ANTI-SKID OFF!

I am still open for debate in this, as my post said these were my initial thought's and they were Beechjet specific with the anti -skid.

First of all though, I did not say turn it off on the runway. I never ever advise changing configurations on the runway.

Second, If that wheel should lock up, when you touch down you would have no brakes what so ever with the anti skid on and thus may have no assistance in directional control. Not to mention that the rest of my statement was to find a long runway. So there would be no reason to brake so hard as to blow tires as you stated. Under normal stopping conditions we do not use heavy braking.

When we practice it in the sim, they always blow it at 80 on a long runway, so stopping is not that hard. I am sure that when it happens in the airplane, as falcon pilot stated, you may not have much choice. I also thought his issues of airframe / flap damage raised other concerns about going.

 

[hawkerjet]

It's very simple. Do exactly as you briefed. If you lost directional control prior to V1 then abort. Rolling down a runway at 80 knots or more doesn't give you much time or runway left to start thinking and then reacting. Stick to the way you trained and stop modifying things. Remember this.... KISS.

 

[G100driver]

WRT to turning off the anti-skid, what does the AFM say? Unless you are a test pilot working for the manufacturer you are putting your hull at risk .... damage that airplane the 1st question the NTSB and the insurance adjuster is going to ask is ... why did you do that?

You will then get careless and reckless violation and your insurance will be voided. Know you AFM and follow it, plan and simple.

 

[NYG-Flyer]

All four blown on Takeoff roll

Leaving out of AMA... V1 was 117, just after 100 kts right outside main blew, sounded like a blown tire, A/C slid slightly, then within seconds (2-3 seconds) the right inboard blew. The whole brake assembly hit hard on the runway and shattered( of course we didn't know all this at the time) directional control was lost but regained... as A/C was slowing to approx: 50 kts both Left mains blew, instantly went off the runway.. luckily we slid into the grass with no further damage. What we learned was simple... every situation is a judgement. We were on a 13,000 ft runway , our takeoff (balanced field length, go/stop length) was approx: 4,300. Procedure is above 80kts loss directional control stop the A/C.. Had we been on a 5,000 or even 6,000 ft runway we may have elected to continue.. reasons: It took us 10,600 ft to stop ( not including the stretch of grass we went into.) When you lose your tires that violently, you lose anti-skid ( if you lose anti-skid on both mains ( right side for example) the system automatically shuts down the left side , so you have no anti-skid, not to mention you have no tire on which to stop on, in our case we lost all braking power on the right side no brakes, no stop. T/R's can only help so much... and when the left tires blew we were only along for the ride. All the factors have to be weighed , of course you have about 1 -2 seconds to figure all that out.

 

[400A]

Leaving out of AMA... V1 was 117, just after 100 kts right outside main blew, sounded like a blown tire, A/C slid slightly, then within seconds (2-3 seconds) the right inboard blew. The whole brake assembly hit hard on the runway and shattered( of course we didn't know all this at the time) directional control was lost but regained... as A/C was slowing to approx: 50 kts both Left mains blew, instantly went off the runway.. luckily we slid into the grass with no further damage. What we learned was simple... every situation is a judgement. We were on a 13,000 ft runway , our takeoff (balanced field length, go/stop length) was approx: 4,300. Procedure is above 80kts loss directional control stop the A/C.. Had we been on a 5,000 or even 6,000 ft runway we may have elected to continue.. reasons: It took us 10,600 ft to stop ( not including the stretch of grass we went into.) When you lose your tires that violently, you lose anti-skid ( if you lose anti-skid on both mains ( right side for example) the system automatically shuts down the left side , so you have no anti-skid, not to mention you have no tire on which to stop on, in our case we lost all braking power on the right side no brakes, no stop. T/R's can only help so much... and when the left tires blew we were only along for the ride. All the factors have to be weighed , of course you have about 1 -2 seconds to figure all that out.

WOW, what kind of A/C was that?

 

[Iflewjetz]

Falcon, good post. I can back you up.
I have had two blown tires. One on landing and one just taxiing to the runway ( in Dulles). They were both in airplanes with single wheel gear. A Jetstream in Greenville, Mississippi and an Excel in Dulles.
I will re-iterate what Falcon said.......YOU WILL NOT HAVE DIRECTIONAL CONTROL-----DO NOT CONTINUE!!

When I flew the Jetstream into Greenville, I just landed (didnt get on the brakes) and the aircraft "went for the grass" Luckily I was able to stop it and direct the brake a little to keep the turn less severe. We stopped on the runway and I went out to look. we made our own "grooved" runway. We asked if the passengers wanted to wait with us for the tug or have ops bring a truck out for them. We only had about 9 or 10 people. They elected for the truck. It was funny as he!! watching them load up into the back bed of a pickup and go to the terminal.

The second time it happend about last Spring. I was taxiing to runway 30? from Signature and like they always do, they sent us down through the airline ramp on I think A or C. They were doing alot of construction around there so I bet we picked up a nail or something I was taxiing probably about 10 to 20 kts and it started veering slightly right. I commented to my FO that I must have a brake starting to hang up. I slowed a little and then WHAM! it went right just like that and the airplane about stopped in its tracks. This happend at slow speed. Just think like Falcon said if it happens at high speed. ABORT!!! I got out, (after KIAD operations and security came to the scene) to take a look (as the fire trucks came). I could see a black trail where I assume it started going low and then a big black explosion spot about 10 or 15 feet behind the aircraft.

We had signature come to get it on a dolly. That didnt work so a mechanic came out and used a spare tire he had for NetJets and put it on ours just for the tow back. We were probably out there for an Hour and a half.
In conclusion, my point is on single wheel, you wont have directional control. On dual, you might but as Falcon said, it made the other one blow as well. Just be safe and abort.

Like one said: It is better to be at the hearing in a wheelchair than 6 feet under.

Yall be carefull out there ya hear.

 

[Mercury]

Excellent post NYG

 

[BE400]

Thanks again to all who posted! Informative threads like this keep me coming back. Now if we could just get rid of all the BS!

 

[G100driver]

Thanks again to all who posted! Informative threads like this keep me coming back. Now if we could just get rid of all the BS!

BE400 and to all the others who are tired of the BS ...

There is another site out there that is run by professional pilots as opposed to webmasters selling advertizing. I cannot mention it by name because in this world I might get banned.

I suggest you check it out.

 

[NW Flyer]

Another vote for stop. I've been through 3 flats, none were catastrophic tire failures, but they all resulted in an a/c that was:

A. Very difficult to control directionally
B. Vibrating so badly I was afraid of the airplane being damaged.

Granted, two of these were on landing and one while taxiing, but I can honestly say that in all three cases it was immediately apparant to me that I would NOT have continued a takeoff with that kind of problem. In other words, we can talk about it a lot, but I bet in most cases, if it happened to you, you wouldn't even hesitate to abort. The noise, vibration, and loss of directional control would convince you quickly of what to do!

 

[400A]

I am convinced. Abort.

This was a very good thread.

 

[TXDA2000]

Blown two (seperate occasions) on landing in a Falcon 20. Couldn't tell until turning off the runway.

Question for you Falcon, did you pull the chute??

 

[falconpilot]

Blown two (seperate occasions) on landing in a Falcon 20. Couldn't tell until turning off the runway.

Question for you Falcon, did you pull the chute??

Nope... This was a retro 20-5 with the Garrett apu mod that puts the apu exaust out of the tail cone. Like the Falcon 200. As a matter of fact now that I think about it.. I think all the retro 20s I was in had the shoot removed.

 

[svcta]

I can't say anything about aircraft with single tire applications, so there's my disclaimer, I suppose.

Otherwise, my sticking points are this: A momentary shove away from the centerline or even a nasty lurch that is recovered from is not a loss of directional control. "Very difficult" to control is not a qualifying high-speed reject item to me(in a jet).

I notice that most of the "abort" side of the conversation with experience, if memory serves, have all contended that they were on runways of considerable length; 10-11k feet. Usually if I'm launching on a runway of that size I'll mention it in a brief that will allow for sort of relaxing the high-speed reject items.

It concerns me a little to see so many of us making blanket statements that pretty much fly right in the face of almost all of our training. The major pitfall here being that we aren't always operating on runways with such liberal dimensions and to get in the mindset of sort of making up our own rules(not to be overdramatic) will one day lead to a wrinkled up airplane. I said it earlier, too, but I think it bears repeating......these reject items become almost exponentially more important as airframe weight increases.

I think it was mentioned earlier: it's the ground that's causing all that vibration and all those other problems......get away from it and give yourself a little time to think. In review: --SERIOUSLY consider your runway length(and know BFL). --Consider every takeoff as unique; just because you've seen it before doesn't make the same reaction jermaine every time. --Remember that this list of reject items finds its roots in statistics, high speed rejects are statistically ugly in the end. And how ever you react stick with your decision: if you're alive it worked, but maybe just that once, so keep an open mind.

I sum up my opinion with this: I think of flying jets as a blend of art and science. The art keeps people comfortable, the science keeps people safe. Science doesn't allow much for gut reactions.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I can't say anything about aircraft with single tire applications, so there's my disclaimer, I suppose.

Otherwise, my sticking points are this: A momentary shove away from the centerline or even a nasty lurch that is recovered from is not a loss of directional control. "Very difficult" to control is not a qualifying high-speed reject item to me(in a jet).

I notice that most of the "abort" side of the conversation with experience, if memory serves, have all contended that they were on runways of considerable length; 10-11k feet. Usually if I'm launching on a runway of that size I'll mention it in a brief that will allow for sort of relaxing the high-speed reject items.

It concerns me a little to see so many of us making blanket statements that pretty much fly right in the face of almost all of our training. The major pitfall here being that we aren't always operating on runways with such liberal dimensions and to get in the mindset of sort of making up our own rules(not to be overdramatic) will one day lead to a wrinkled up airplane. I said it earlier, too, but I think it bears repeating......these reject items become almost exponentially more important as airframe weight increases.

I think it was mentioned earlier: it's the ground that's causing all that vibration and all those other problems......get away from it and give yourself a little time to think. In review: --SERIOUSLY consider your runway length(and know BFL). --Consider every takeoff as unique; just because you've seen it before doesn't make the same reaction jermaine every time. --Remember that this list of reject items finds its roots in statistics, high speed rejects are statistically ugly in the end. And how ever you react stick with your decision: if you're alive it worked, but maybe just that once, so keep an open mind.

I sum up my opinion with this: I think of flying jets as a blend of art and science. The art keeps people comfortable, the science keeps people safe. Science doesn't allow much for gut reactions.

Very nicely stated.

 

[AngelKing]

Not much you can do when the nose slams back down on the runway.


AK

 

[greygoose]

Sorry for bringing this thread up so late. As a FSDO once told me on another subject, but related to this topic. Good luck telling a NTSB judge that you decided to take it airborne when you briefed loss of directional control on your aborted items.
Another point, you will most likely blow your other main when you return to land.

 

[Caveman]

Disclaimer: I'm an airline guy and have almost no experience in a single main wheel light jet.

At the airlines I've worked for the magic number for a highspeed RTO is 100 kts not 80, but the premise is the same. After 100 kts we're going unless there is a catastrophic control failure. The problem is what is catastrophic? I can tell you for certain if I did an RTO after 100 for a blown tire I'd have some explaining to do. We brief to the contrary so I had better have a compelling reason for stopping. Veering away from centerline would probably not be a sufficient reason unless I had a complete loss of directional control. Difficult control is still control. As bad as the situation may have felt immediately after the blown tire it's usually best to get airborne, evaluate and then find a runway and airport that is best suited for me to get back safely.

I'm not second guessing the above guys that have had to live this scenario. They made it work and are still able to talk about it. However, statistically they are in the minority. How many dead guys that aborted would do it the same way again? We brief for a reason. If we're going to ignore the plan, why bother?

My other concern is that even if the landing is ugly and you still leave the runway I'd rather have the crash crew staged and ready to roll than having to wait for the tower to call them. They could be with you in seconds rather than minutes.

Congrats to the guys that made it work and thanks for sharing your experience with us. It is extremely valuable information.

 

[ruhroa]

my .02 cents................ Whatever you do .......go / no go make sure you are both on the same sheet of music............. accelaration is not stopping and chewing up runway is not put on hold while this is discussed........... make the decision, brief the decision and for pete's sake stay with the decision