Blown tire after 80 before V1 on short runway!

[falconpilot]

Do you have time to register a blown tire after 80kts? That is why I go with the standard brief.

"after V1 we will abort for engine, fire, failure, inadvertant T/R deployment or loss of directional control." Quite frankly I think a tire blowing would fall under loss of directional control. But, WTF do I know about a beechjet.

If I loose directional control prior to V1 it is an abort ... it sounds better at the hearing.

I wasn't a captain at the time of this incident. But your right.. I don't think my mind registered a blown tire at first. But words cannot explain the vibration.. Im talking severe vibration.. I didn't even consider trying to continue the take off. Abort Abort Abort came out of my mouth immediately. You couldn't even read the intruments and it was even hard trying to get my hand on the airbrake handle. Directional control wasn't exactly a big issue.. Having a tiller helped that problem quite a bit.. But im not going to tell you we kept on the centerline either. The airplane went to the right in somewhat of a violent way, but it was controlable. I've though back on this event several times and wondered what would have happened if we continued and got airborne... Landing in that type of situation would have probably been disasterous.. High ref speed, heavy aircraft, and no tires on one side.. I really don't think it would have been pretty..

 

[Rxflyer]

I would be inclined to (try to) stop, agreeing with above comments about what would happen trying to land with what would likely be a shredded tire. It seems to me, though, that if you were departing a short runway, you would be spring-loaded to abort if anything happened prior to V1. You would just react to the situation and wouldn't take time to evaluate it, and would abort.
Sounds like a scenario to try in the sim if you can !

 

[falconpilot]

I would be inclined to (try to) stop, agreeing with above comments about what would happen trying to land with what would likely be a shredded tire. It seems to me, though, that if you were departing a short runway, you would be spring-loaded to abort if anything happened prior to V1. You would just react to the situation and wouldn't take time to evaluate it, and would abort.
Sounds like a scenario to try in the sim if you can !

It would be something good to practice in the sim... But i can promise the sim wont come close to the real thing... I was glad that we were at Alliance Fort Worth will a really long runway.. Any other airport we probably would have gone off the end.. We would have most likely blown the fuse plugs on the good tires trying to stop..

 

[svcta]

High speed rejects are almost always a bad proposition. I tend to agree with the "fire, failure, t/r deploy or loss of dir. control" list and with those that question the capabilities of recognizing and diagnosing a blown tire in those few seconds. the water gets mudied a little with jets as light as most of the corporate world are operating, and the heavier you get the more important I think it becomes that you adhere to the list of reject items.

Personally, I like the idea of getting in the air and finding a suitable airport to land on if the one we just departed isn't rather large. I know that it must be hard to fight your gut reaction to stop in a case like this, but that is precisely what training is all about. You train away gut reactions and apply rehearsed ones. It's what separates us from the apes.

 

[con-pilot]

Pay heed to the words of falconpilot. The answer is STOP.

 

[falconpilot]

High speed rejects are almost always a bad proposition. I tend to agree with the "fire, failure, t/r deploy or loss of dir. control" list and with those that question the capabilities of recognizing and diagnosing a blown tire in those few seconds. the water gets mudied a little with jets as light as most of the corporate world are operating, and the heavier you get the more important I think it becomes that you adhere to the list of reject items.

Personally, I like the idea of getting in the air and finding a suitable airport to land on if the one we just departed isn't rather large. I know that it must be hard to fight your gut reaction to stop in a case like this, but that is precisely what training is all about. You train away gut reactions and apply rehearsed ones. It's what separates us from the apes.

QUESTION.... This is not only directed to you either... How do you define loss of directional control... Or should i say... What is your boundry area... IE.. If you leave centerline and cant bring it back? Or if you leave centerline and its hell trying to get it back to centerline... I agree that high speed aborts are not safe... But I can promise everyone that reads this that if you blow a tire between 80 and V1 you will have a loss of directional control. It may be temparary... But you will not keep it straight. Especially if you are in an aircraft that has a large diference between V1 and VR. I would even go as far as saying that if there was suffient runway available and your aircraft has a large split between V1 and VR, an abort at V1 would probably be a better choice than getting airborne.. That being said... Ill probably be branded as an idiot and a horrible pilot... But think about it for a minute... Lets say your V1 is 124 and Vr is 134. Those number are from a Falcon 50EX mgtow slats only take off.. Thats not a big difference between V1 and Vr, some aircraft have alot larger difference between the two.. At those speeds if you blew two tires on the same gear, the rubber would depart the wheel and you would probably burn half the wheel off and ignite hydraulic fluid from the brakes. I still would vote to abort... BUT... Only if there was suffient runway available.. It would be scary taking that into the air and then trying to land and keep it on the pavement. JMO

 

[SCT]

My personal opinion is that I would stop the a/c. With tight runway #s and the scenerio given....it's time to react and not think. In the split second w/ a short runway, it is not time to debate whether the vibration is a blown tire, loss fan blade, etc.

Just my thoughts.

 

[con-pilot]

Just my thoughts.

Pretty darn good thoughts as well.

We always need to maintain 'situational awareness'. Is it better to depart the runway environment at 80 to 100 knots decelerating? (Assuming one is not going off a cliff, see situational awareness above.) Or impacting the ground at 150+ kts inverted yelling and screaming?

Sitting in a wheelchair at the hearing is better than being 6 feet under.

 

[G100driver]

You would abort after V1? or was that a typo.

$hit!!! I meant after 80 knots prior to V1 we abort yadda yadda yadda

 

[400A]

$hit!!! I meant after 80 knots prior to V1 we abort yadda yadda yadda

I thought so, and I agree.

 

[jergbsn]

A couple of posts had said they would perfer the abort rather than Takeoff if it were on a short runway. This doesn't make sense to me. Assuming that the big 5 haven't been met(engine failure, fire, loss of directional control, TR deployment, or collision avoidance), I usually brief that I'm going to continue the TO. ON a longer runway, I may brief "we'll abort for anything up to V1". Where as on the shorter runways its "anything up to 80, the big 5 after that and up to V1". The example that FalconPilot gave had him use up nearly all the runway at Alliance. I'm sure if he had good tires and good brakes an RTO just before V1 wouldn't come close to using up 11,000 feet of runway or whatever it might be there. I don't know the Falcon 50 but that's just my guess. If he were on a 5K or 6K foot runway who knows. IMO, take it up, figure it out, and have a game plan. At least in the worst case you'll still have emergency crews ready and waiting to assist in what ever might occur.

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

Pop!

Interesting thought about the a-skid. If you're on the rim, you won't get much braking, locked wheel or not, right? How about the other, good wheel? Wouldn't you want the best braking and protection possible? You sure wouldn't want that one to blow, also.
I admit I don't know anything about your airplane, however.

If I recall correctly most a/c anti skid system works in a similar matter, using a voltage generator in each main hub and sends the information to an anti skid control box which then compares the voltage produced by each spin up and controls the amount of pressure to be released on the appropriate set until the desired voltage matches. The fact that the tire will be desintegrated will definitely have an effect on breaking distance on single wheels.

I personally have not experienced one on takeoff but if it affects directional control before V1 then I would reject the take off. If it does not, then I would press on and continue to a suitable airport with enough length and equipment to accomodate the emergency, preferrably leaving the gear extended as long as it still meets any needed climb gradient.

But thats just my humble opinion.

 

[falconpilot]

Let me clarify one thing from my previous post...

We used up all the runway because we choose to... And what I mean by that is we knew we had plenty of runway.. So in order to not do any further damage. IE Honkin on the brakes and blowing all the tires and destroying all four wheels and damaging both flaps from the tire debris... We were delicate with the brakes... But even after being delicate with them they still were extremely hot. And like I said earlier the fuse plugs blew on the good tires anyhow. But atleast it was after we stopped..

 

[Blackjet]

be sure and turn the anti-skid off.

That is extremely poor advice. The Anti-Skid computer will know that something is not right with the affected wheel and will compensate accordingy. For example, once you realized the tire was blown and you have say, 8000 feet left, would you reach up and turn the Anti-Skid off? Or under normal ops, if the LH side of the runway was wet, but the RH was dry, would you turn the Anti-Skid off?

When you blow the good tire and bend some metal, the 1st thing anyone is going to ask is, 'Tell us again why you turned off the Anti-Skid?"

DO NOT TURN THE ANTI-SKID OFF!

 

[SoundBarViolatr]

In regards to a rejected takeoff, I believe that though the anti-skid may increase stopping distance with a blown (single) tire, some manufacturers do not automatically factor the use of spoilers, T/Rs, runway gradient, and headwinds into the numbers which affords a decent margin of cushion to the ability to stop the airplane. Lockheed provides additional charts to factor the above into adjusted numbers.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

First of all, I'd like to stress the fact that I'm not second guessing or sniping at any post here. I appreciate hearing from professionals and experts in this field. I'm tryin' to learn here and I appreciate all input!
That said, I believe that taking it in the air at a speed close to V1 is USUALLY the best course. Airplanes are fractious beasts on the ground, especially at high speeds. They're built to fly and handle better in the air than at V1 speeds on a 100-150 foot runway.
PERHAPS the severe vibration from the Falcon would have diminished after rotation as the wheels spun down. PERHAPS they could have cruised around with gear down to lower the weight. PERHAPS they could have touched down on the numbers and had 11,000 feet to stop. I wasn't there, I WON"T arm-chair quarterback. Nobody got hurt, you DID GREAT!
But, in general, absent a lack of control, I believe the "go decision" close to V1 is better.
I have a lot of hours sitting on my ass in transport cat airplanes, but as you know, that is mostly JUST sitting on my ASS!
I really appreciate the hearing from you guys/girls.

 

[N60OSU]

Humor a prop driver for a bit and answer me this:

In a single tire setup could the aircraft continue to accelerate with a blown tire?

Putting aside the obvious differences between props and jets for a moment and considering their similarities, I blew a tire in a Baron just after landing and two things struck me: 1) how complete was my loss of directional control and 2) how rapidly the airplane decelerated once the tire blew. I stayed on the runway despite #1 in large part due to #2. It's possible that the airplane would have been more controllable had I been at full power rather than at idle, but I cannot be certain and hope never to find out.

In considering the situation at hand I am not certain that on takeoff, even if being at full power aided me in controlling the airplane, the Baron would continue to accelerate once a tire had blown. If not an abort would not be my choice so much as it would be thrust upon me. Not a good scenario given the accident record as it relates to high speed aborts. With respect to that a real consideration is the reserve performance of a jet compared to the Baron. In general would it be enough to accelerate the airplane to Vr?

Given the chance I would absolutely prefer to take the airplane into the air and prepare to respond to any control problems experienced on landing than react to them on the takeoff roll. If the airplanes behavior gave me too much concern about my ability to control it on landing I would consider landing with the gear up.

Depending on the will of the Bid Sheet gods I will be in a Lear quite soon so I am anxious to hear the thoughts of experienced jet guys...

 

[AngelKing]

I Have Had This Happen!!!!!! Falcon 20-5 At Afw. (alliance Fort Worth). You Do Not. I Repeat Do Not Want To Continue This Take Off At All Cost... If You Cant Stop The Airplane On A Short Runway, Then Maybe That Would Be The Only Detering Factor.. We Blew The Inside Right Main First, Which Then Caused The Outside Main To Blow For Some Reason. The Vibration Was So Intense That You Could Not Read The Instument Panel.. Plates Were Falling Out Of The Galley, Pax Were Freaked Out... Etc... We Used All 11000 Feet Of Runway Stopping It... No Tr's. The Airplane Was Full Of Fuel At The Time. There Was Flap And Gear Damage.. We Stopped And Pulled Off The Runway, And I Asked If I Could Get Out Of The Plane And Assess The Damage.. I Got Out And Walked Around To The Right Side Of The Aircraft, And Came To The Conclusion That Taxiing Any Further Was Not A Great Idea. We Shut The Plane Down Called The Fire Trucks, Due To The Fact That The Brakes Were So Hot That They Were Popping And Looked As If They Were Melting. (pieces Of The Brake Were Falling On The Ground.) Terry Bradshaw Was Our Passenger. He Got Out And Leaned Against The Left Wing Near The Door. I Told Him We Should Get Away From The Gear Just Incase One The Brakes Decided To Come Apart. About A Second Later The Heat From The Braked Caused The Fuse Plugs To Blow On The Left Gear Tires. It Scared The Pi$$ Out Of Both Me And Terry Bradshaw. That Was The First Time I Heard One Blow. Long Story Short. It Was A Big Ordeal. My Recomendation Is To If You Are Before V1, Abort At All Cost.

I had exactly the same thing happen in Guam in a Lear 36. The nose was already airborne when both right side tires blew. The nose instantly slammed back down on the ground and it was quite a ride until we finally go it stopped. Thank God, Guam has long runways. I don't add anymore to the story because it was exactly like the story above.

I am not going to say anyone should stop/go, it just depends on the conditions and the decision you make at the time. But, I can assure there will always be someone telling you what you should have done, usually while they sitting home in their lounge chair.

AK

 

[Bandit60]

I saw a cj blow a main gear tire on take off. He had no choice but to abort because he was losing directional control. The pilot did the right and only thing he could do in this particular situation.

 

[Propnose]

We're trained in the sim to abort blown tires after 80kts. They almost always give us that senario during recurrent. Even with two tires on each side we still lose the centerline when it happens (even with a blown nose wheel). Getting on the brakes and keeping it on the runway has always been possible. Although keep in mind this is in the sim - I have not had to experience a blown tire for real yet!