Big Sky - East Coast

[Cpt Oveur]

Yes, there is. Right next to Lorenzo.

 

[cale42]

This was a doomed operation from the start.. I spent a couple bids in MSS flying for AMW. The people there were so excited to boot us for Big Sky.. it was all they could talk about. Noone seem concerned that Big Sky had no employees and no experience on the East Coast, and no real concrete plan. Even so.. that northern NY flying is brutal on the whole. With the weather and the lack of runway and nav equipment.. its amazing flights ever got in and out of those places on any kind of regular schedule.

On a related note.. does anyone else feel this is the start of the whole EAS concept being doomed. As long as the regionals are short like they are pilots don't want to go to the 1900. And thats the only plane that can really work EAS profitably.. and even thats tough. With AMW and Big SKy actively pulling out of every city the gov't will allow, Colgan getting the Q's.. there is literally noone to fly the EAS service.. just aint gonna happen...

cale

 

[CA1900]

On a related note.. does anyone else feel this is the start of the whole EAS concept being doomed...

As a taxpayer, I certainly hope so. If the market won't support air service, guess what? You don't get air service!

Saranac Lake, for example, is 150 miles from Albany, NY, and 110 miles from Burlington, VT. Utica, NY, was finally dropped as an EAS city, but it was less than 50 miles from Syracuse, and had a subsidy of over $1 Million a year! That one really ticked me off, as the planes were almost always empty -- the passengers were driving to Syracuse to take the JetBlue flight to the same city.


The saying, "beggars can't be choosers," seems to ring especially true here. If you want federally-subsidized air service, then you get the lowest (or only) bidder. And seldom is the lowest bidder going to provide you the best service out there, because good service costs money.


These people want hourly 737s for $50 when they can't even half-fill a couple of 1900s in a day. I don't know what they're putting in the water up there, but it must be pretty damn good.

 

[rptrain]

On a related note.. does anyone else feel this is the start of the whole EAS concept being doomed.

i'd take that bet. in its current form, EAS is good for nobody.

 

[propsarebest]

i'd take that bet. in its current form, EAS is good for nobody.

Agreed. It is real bad for everyone, especially the city/county that gets a chubby when someone finally does fly in to their hole. Then they spend a ton of $$$ (YOUR MONEY) to build a fancyass terminal that nobody uses. Then they bitch and complain about the lack of use.

 

[JPAustin]

I think the Big Sky pilot group went to ALPA twice and tried to get representation. ALPA told them "no thanks". But as soon as MAIR acquired Big Sky and ALPA and the Mesaba pilots realized that the whipsawing was about to begin they (ALPA) asked Big Sky to come on board and the Big Sky pilots told ALPA "no thanks". I believe that is how it all worked out. I could have some of the details wrong. Anyone else know more?

That is exactly correct. I hope what little connection Big Sky does have with Mesaba perhaps can persuade the Mesaba MEC to negotiate for a preferential hiring program. I know some guys at XJ are PO'd because Big Sky voted NO to ALPA in XJ's time of need, but come on, I wouldn't want to be the girl picked to dance last either when my services are suddenly needed afterall. Regardless, my condolences to the Big Sky pilots. I always liked the operation (what little I knew of it) and respected the skills required to fly in that crap northern plains/rockies crap.

 

[clippyrip]

If any of you have connections to get the Big Sky pilots some preferential hiring it would help. There are a lot of people worried about getting another job before their head goes below water. Last night there was a resume building party and there were a number of people really sweating this news. The newest rumor is that the FAA is headed out here to shut things down effective immediately. Great Christmas Bonus.

 

[profit]

That is exactly correct. I hope what little connection Big Sky does have with Mesaba perhaps can persuade the Mesaba MEC to negotiate for a preferential hiring program. I know some guys at XJ are PO'd because Big Sky voted NO to ALPA in XJ's time of need, but come on, I wouldn't want to be the girl picked to dance last either when my services are suddenly needed afterall. Regardless, my condolences to the Big Sky pilots. I always liked the operation (what little I knew of it) and respected the skills required to fly in that crap northern plains/rockies crap.

It is NOT correct at all. ALPA never tried to get the TWU decertified and replaced by ALPA.

ALPA/XJ disliked the idea of the 100+Million earned by Mesaba diverted to the holding company and used to grow an entirely separate airline.

ALPA invited the Big Sky chairman to the ALPA BOD meeting to discuss the issue. The BS chairman ate lots of free food, talked with numerous reps and national officers, and went home and did NOTHING. He had his chance and failed to attempt to make friends with potential brother and sister union pilots. XJ/ALPA attempted to find a cooperative solution, but it fell on deaf ears. So XJ/ALPA had to play the scope card. Mesaba pilots paid dearly with a very average contract to secure their company scope. The end result was Big Sky being limited to 19 seats.

Big Sky pilots didn't vote no to Mesaba, they voted for a very sub-standard contract that would have resulted in growth fueled by money earned by Mesaba.

You might want to get your facts straight before you spew that stuff.

 

[profit]

It is NOT correct at all. ALPA never tried to get the TWU decertified and replaced by ALPA.

Sorry, I meant UTU.

 

[JPAustin]

It is NOT correct at all. ALPA never tried to get the TWU decertified and replaced by ALPA.

ALPA/XJ disliked the idea of the 100+Million earned by Mesaba diverted to the holding company and used to grow an entirely separate airline.

ALPA invited the Big Sky chairman to the ALPA BOD meeting to discuss the issue. The BS chairman ate lots of free food, talked with numerous reps and national officers, and went home and did NOTHING. He had his chance and failed to attempt to make friends with potential brother and sister union pilots. XJ/ALPA attempted to find a cooperative solution, but it fell on deaf ears. So XJ/ALPA had to play the scope card. Mesaba pilots paid dearly with a very average contract to secure their company scope. The end result was Big Sky being limited to 19 seats.

Big Sky pilots didn't vote no to Mesaba, they voted for a very sub-standard contract that would have resulted in growth fueled by money earned by Mesaba.

You might want to get your facts straight before you spew that stuff.

I give you, a PO'd XJ pilot!

Come on dude, whoever said ALPA tried to get the TWU "decertified"? They certainly tried to persuade Big Sky pilots to vote out TWU in favor of ALPA, but Big Sky pilots rightfully had a bad taste in their mouth after approaching ALPA twice to no avail.

Get off your high-horse. Its Christmas and people just heard they are out of a job, just in time to have already spent some hard earned money on the holidays. Pissed or not, you should have compassion for any pilot forced out of a job for any reason, especially during the holidays. Do YOU know what each and every individual pilot there at Big Sky thinks or thought about ALPA or Mesaba? Some probably hated both, true, but the rest were just earning a living and supporting a family.

It is best YOU are aware of the PRESENT FACTS before YOU start SPEWING off THAT stuff.

 

[profit]

I give you, a PO'd XJ pilot!

Come on dude, whoever said ALPA tried to get the TWU "decertified"? They certainly tried to persuade Big Sky pilots to vote out TWU in favor of ALPA, but Big Sky pilots rightfully had a bad taste in their mouth after approaching ALPA twice to no avail.

Get off your high-horse. Its Christmas and people just heard they are out of a job, just in time to have already spent some hard earned money on the holidays. Pissed or not, you should have compassion for any pilot forced out of a job for any reason, especially during the holidays. Do YOU know what each and every individual pilot there at Big Sky thinks or thought about ALPA or Mesaba? Some probably hated both, true, but the rest were just earning a living and supporting a family.

It is best YOU are aware of the PRESENT FACTS before YOU start SPEWING off THAT stuff.

It amazes me how people infer so many things...

Re-read what I wrote about 6 times and maybe you will get it.

You and others write that Big Sky voted NO to ALPA, and all sorts of other factual inaccuracies. I wanted to correct that.

I am certainly not angry. I just wanted to recount some history before more people tried to rewrite it.

I never said or implied that I thought it was cool that Big Sky pilots were out of jobs.

I sincerely hope they all apply at Mesaba and become overnight captains. Or find better jobs elsewhere, there are plenty of airlines that need pilots right now. In fact, I would be willing to bet that people on the Mesaba MEC are discussing the idea of trying to help the Big Sky pilots.

My "high horse" only has to do with the truth.

I also think it was a mistake for ALPA to fail to represent Big Sky (even though it was YEARS ago). And I think ALPA probably learned some lessons in the process.

 

[JPAustin]

It amazes me how people infer so many things...

Re-read what I wrote about 6 times and maybe you will get it.

You and others write that Big Sky voted NO to ALPA, and all sorts of other factual inaccuracies. I wanted to correct that.

I am certainly not angry. I just wanted to recount some history before more people tried to rewrite it.

I never said or implied that I thought it was cool that Big Sky pilots were out of jobs.

I sincerely hope they all apply at Mesaba and become overnight captains. Or find better jobs elsewhere, there are plenty of airlines that need pilots right now. In fact, I would be willing to bet that people on the Mesaba MEC are discussing the idea of trying to help the Big Sky pilots.

My "high horse" only has to do with the truth.

I also think it was a mistake for ALPA to fail to represent Big Sky (even though it was YEARS ago). And I think ALPA probably learned some lessons in the process.

Huuuummm. Okay, I will concede that the conjecture of "voting NO to ALPA" comes off as ALPA trying to break the UTU, which could not happen because that would be highly illegal as the UTU is AFLCIO just like ALPA. However, the spirit of "NO to ALPA" still maintains, as the Big Sky group voted in, as considered at the time, the less than stellar contract that MAIR wanted. In spite of ALPA's wooing, the contract was voted in and it did hurt the leverage of XJ's MEC during the contract negotiations.

So the facts of the matter are that one, ALPA rejected Big Sky's advances twice because Big Sky was not big enough, two, the UTU, which is twice as big as ALPA, happily picked up Big Sky, three, MAIR bought Big Sky to whip saw against XJ pilots knowing that there were likely bad feelings Big Sky pilots felt towards ALPA, and four, the Big Sky pilots voted yes to the MAIR contract and effectively stunted the negotiating leverage of XJ's MEC.

I think this clears up the facts of the situation, and I apoligize for misconstrueing your tone. And Happy Holidays.