Bible Defense

[Super 80]

Since an infant is incapable of committing any sin, I think it is safe to conclude that an infant is in no way separated from GOd.

This is different than what I am saying. If I take your statement to its logical conclusion, then at some point you're saying that we are with God. This is like what TWA dude is saying that we come into the world pure and free of sin.

That is not what theologians have drawn out of what Paul wrote in Romans 5:12. It is different than what the Bible teaches, because no where in the Old or New Testaments can I find the concept expressed that we are free of sin.

Like I said, it is human nature that we all came into the world being self-oriented. In the very essence of self, this is opposed to God since it is not God-oriented.

Now the only reason I'm taking the time to establish that we have this self-oriented nature as a consequence for Adam's sin, is because if you can say at some point some one, even if it is just one is free of sin in body and flesh, being born of man, and thus in the lineage of Adam, then there is no need for atonement.

That is, we could all insure our children go to heaven by killing them as they exit the womb as abhorrent as that may sound.

That my friend is the logical extension to the thought you have posited by saying we are not separated from God and need His Salvation or Redemption even as a newborn to with God.

Because if we cannot establish that sin is universal, then there is no need for some to seek God's grace. That is not what the Bible teaches.

 

[TonyC]

OK - - this is getting a bit confusing. I'm responding to a post you've made while you're editing the same post, then I have to re-read it to determine what has changed (I hope it was just the bold-print added). It's time I took a little break. Back to the Honey-Do list. See ya tomorrow.

 

[Super 80]

What mechanism has God given us to redeem the soul of a newborn child that is doomed to hell?

Since they have no knowledge of God, Jesus or the Law, they are judged apart from the Law. Since God judges the heart, and the sheep know their shepherd, there is an allowance for part of those to be redeemed in judgment.

Again, I do not know the heart, so for me to say all are saved or all are doomed is beyond my ability, so I allow that some may be saved or some may be doomed. The judgment is God's not mine.

RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

 

[TonyC]

This is different than what I am saying. If I take your statement to its logical conclusion, then at some point you're saying that we are with God. This is like what TWA dude is saying that we come into the world pure and free of sin.

OK, call me a liar. I have to post once more before the Honey-Do list.

That is precisely what I am saying. An infant comes into this world purer than the wind-driven snow.

That is not what theologians have drawn out of what Paul wrote in Romans 5:12.

That is not what ALL theologians have drawn. The concept of Original Sin as I hear you espouse is not universally accepted. I disagree with that doctrine. See below.

That my friend is the logical extension to the thought you have posited by saying we are not separated from God and need His Salvation or Redemption even as a newborn to with God.

Because if we cannot establish that sin is universal, then there is no need for some to seek God's grace. That is not what the Bible teaches.

It is God's will that we all be saved. He has given us a mechanism for salvation. I have asked this question of you several times, now, but it has remained unanswered. IF an infant comes into this world separated from God, what mechanism has God provided for redeeming the infant's sin?

The only mechanism I find in the new Testament involves repentance, confession, - - obedience - - none of which an infant is capable of.

I return your plea for consistency. Where is the consistency in a God who desires that all be saved, yet leaves an infant in an impossible state?

 

[Super 80]

Eve apparently undersood the command to apply to them both, as she quoted the command to the serpent. I see no support for the idea that the command was not given to Eve, and that it did not therefore bind her.

It is a fine point, Eve does repeat the command that was given to Adam before she was made. We do not know if the command was repeated to her after her creation or if Adam let her know what the rules were.

The Hebrew is clear that only after Adam ate were their eyes opened as a sequence of events. She ate. She gave some to Adam. He ate. Then their eyes were opened.

Later when God questions Adam, the Hebrew is not as clear as we read in the English where He questions Adam about the command the He gave (you). The word you is not explicitly in the Hebrew so we are unsure if the command was meant only for Adam since that is the only one we know was actually given the command by God.

But as a matter of theology, Paul expresses sin as coming into the world through Adam, so I take the command to have been to him personally. After all, When Eve ate before she gave it to Adam, nothing happened.

Again it's a fine point and I bring it out only as something to reflect upon. The reader is free to decide for him or herself. The gist of the matter is that this rebellion from God's commands set up the fall from fellowship with God, and introduced a much different world for us with sin as a natural state of our being.

 

[Super 80]

I return your plea for consistency. Where is the consistency in a God who desires that all be saved, yet leaves an infant in an impossible state?

I find it incredulous that you cannot fathom that God has enough discernment and wisdom to know these circumstances forego the normal route to Salvation that is available to us as mature individuals.

It is very clear in the Bible from the Old Testament on, that God judges the heart. So in this case, even though the newborn is clearly not in a state of being with God, they can be reunited through God by His determination.

The state is not impossible because with God nothing is impossible.

 

[Super 80]

If it is preferrable to think of babies as being blameless since they can commit nothing, being absolutely helpless, then leads us to think of them as without sin as a doctrine of faith because we are caught in a catch-22 situation to solve the dichotomy of sin and being granted grace without expressing faith; then how does David's words here in the Psalms, written after his own indiscretion with Bathsheba match with that thought?

In other words, how can this be true and for you to still hold that babies are pure and free from sin?

PS 51:1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.

PS 51:2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

PS 51:3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.

PS 51:4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.

PS 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

PS 51:6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts;
you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.

PS 51:7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean;
wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.

Yes I do look for consistency, and we must be consistent with God's Word.

 

[TurboS7]

Super 80 I am very much impressed.

 

[Timebuilder]

I return your plea for consistency. Where is the consistency in a God who desires that all be saved, yet leaves an infant in an impossible state?

I'll take a swing at that, Tony, if you don't mind.

While the Bible is the Word of God, it is not the TOTAL of information that could have been imparted to us. It is the part that God desires to impart to us. There are any number of topics that God could have addressed, but did not.

God most likely has a plan in place for literally every contingency, including babies and their judgement according to the "all have sinned" doctrine of Romans, 3:23.

As believers we can assume the aspects of God's character that we already know, including that He is consistent, even if we cannot find scripture to answer all of our questions.

 

[wms]

Ps 116:6 "The Lord preserveth the simple."

1 Corr 1:14 "else were your children unclean, but now they are holy." speaking of the young children of christians.

After the incident with Bath-Sheba and the loss of his son as a result, David mourned his son until he died after seven days, then rejoiced afterward knowing he would see him in heaven.

 

[Super 80]

The correct reference is 1CO 7:14. This section carries more nuances than a simple reading suggests.

Expositor's Bible Commentary
Rather (v. 14), the Christian partner should think of the truth that the Lord can use him as a godly, holy influence in such a mixed family relationship and in helping that family to be consecrated (set apart) to God. The word hagiazo ("to sanctify") does not refer to moral purity--Paul is certainly not teaching that the unbelieving partner is made morally pure. What the word emphasizes is a relationship to God, a claim of God on the person and family to be set apart for him (cf. Acts 20:32; 26:18). The perfect tense of the verb hegiastai stresses that, being in a Christian family, the unbeliever has already become and continues to be a part of a family unit upon which God has his claim and which he will use for his service. The same is true of children born in such a family. That God has laid his hand on the Christian means that God has laid his hand on the children, and set them apart for himself. They are holy (hagia, "set apart for God") and not "unclean"--that is, not spiritually separated from God, as was and is the case in unbelieving families. The Bible's teaching elsewhere about the Christian parent and his covenant children set apart for God is also relevant to this passage. Consider Genesis 17:1-14, where the children of God's people of the OT are included among God's covenant people, and Acts 2:38, 39, where it is emphasized that God's promise applies to the children of believers, whether of those who are "near," the Jews, or those "afar off," the Gentiles (cf. Eph 2:12, 13). Covenant children are to be counted a part of God's people and should be nurtured in the Christian faith and in the fear of the Lord (Eph 6:4).

 

[TurboS7]

Just went and listened to Josh McDowell tonight in person at Calvary Chapel. This thread is right on. He said that only about 10% of the averge Christians could defend the Bible.

 

[TonyC]

OK, Super80 and Timebuilder - - I gotta make this fast cuz' there's a jet with my name on it waitin' to fly boxes and letters to ONT.

OK, you say kids are sinful, separated from God, even in the womb. And you say if they die before they even understand they are sinners, they're judged by some level of judgment reserved for God only. Apart from the law, you say.

Fine... if that's the case, tell me what good it does to teach others about Christ. If there's a standard by which we can be judged other than God's word, why mess people up with God's plan? Let the natives in the jungle be - - if they're good people, God will let them off the hook. Ignorance is bliss. They don't need the gospel plan of salvation unless you inform them that they need it.

Sinful nature. Sin. One of the two requires an informed decision. One of the two separates one from God. One of the two cannot be committed by a child, or an individual who is otherwise incompetent to discern good and evil.

 

[PilotBarbie]

Just went and listened to Josh McDowell tonight in person at Calvary Chapel. This thread is right on. He said that only about 10% of the averge Christians could defend the Bible.

Thank you TurboS7, Timebuilder & Super80 for believing and sharing the Word of God. You all do an excellent job of defending the Bible.

 

[Timebuilder]

If there's a standard by which we can be judged other than God's word, why mess people up with God's plan? Let the natives in the jungle be - - if they're good people, God will let them off the hook. Ignorance is bliss. They don't need the gospel plan of salvation unless you inform them that they need it.

The key word you mentioned are "God's plan." That's what he wants in play, not whatever method He may hold in reserve.

The Great Comission makes clear that His preference is that everyone be aware of the plan of salvation. Why? Perhaps the rewards are far greater than simply being "unaware."

Perhaps more poignant is His desire to have an active relationship with us, for His people to "know Him", rather than have us, His creation, living our lives without His fellowship.

Sinful nature. Sin. One of the two requires an informed decision. One of the two separates one from God. One of the two cannot be committed by a child, or an individual who is otherwise incompetent to discern good and evil.

The sinful nature of Man is shared by everyone. The other can certainly be comitted objectively by those who do not know of Him. There is a lot of theological discussion about these ideas, and you pose interesting questions. The bottom line, as it were, is the Bible's assertion that we are all sinners, and all need the savior. Everyone who does not know the plan should be told the plan so they can be saved instead of lost.

So, we focus our efforts to obey Matthew 28 toward those who can understand and let God handle those who cannot. Just as you mentioned, its His plan.

 

[Super 80]

Sinful nature. Sin. One of the two requires an informed decision. One of the two separates one from God. One of the two cannot be committed by a child, or an individual who is otherwise incompetent to discern good and evil.

I'm going to answer the second question first because it leads to the answer for the first objection.

You can think of sin as being inherited guilt in which we are wrong as a result of Adam’s sin, or an inherited corruption, in that we are all sinful by nature because of Adam’s Fall.

But the one thing about sin is that it is not just by our actions that we are sinful, such as killing or stealing, but in our attitudes, coveting lust, jealousy, anger, and selfishness as well (EX 20:17, MT 5:28, GAL 5:20).

In a way, Adam represented all of mankind. The Bible teaches that we all came from him, so in that respect each of us has a part in him in that we descended from him. If you are indignant of the idea of Adam representing us, then it equally follows that you would have to reject Jesus as standing in our stead representing each of us as He paid the price for our sin (RO 5:18).

Now if whether we are sinful by nature or inherit it, each of us carries it with us from the time we are conceived (RO 3:23). Being self-oriented (rather than selfish because not all selfish motives are bad) carries with it the characteristic of being against God’s nature. This is just as much of a sin as the attitudes of plotting evil, or coveting or wanton lust.

Children do not have to be taught how to do wrong (PS 51:5; 58:3). But we have to teach them what is right (DT 6:7, EPH 6:4). But we all have sin, no matter how young, or ignorant of the law, because sin existed before the Law was given (RO 5:13-14). So those that are apart from the Law are not excused from sin, and their physical death shows they are under the same penalty as all men are from the time of Adam.

Fine... if that's the case, tell me what good it does to teach others about Christ. If there's a standard by which we can be judged other than God's word, why mess people up with God's plan? Let the natives in the jungle be - - if they're good people, God will let them off the hook. Ignorance is bliss. They don't need the gospel plan of salvation unless you inform them that they need it.

If these people are ignorant of God, they are not worshipping God. And that is a sin too. They still have the possibility of redemption by God, but there is no treasure awaiting them by being in obedience of God’s commands. Literally without knowledge of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they have no ability to do what is good. And their nature as well is unwashed by the cleansing power of the Holy Spirit, so some may remain in God’s good grace because their heart is inclined towards Him, but there is nothing they can do to please Him, because it is only through faith in Him and the One He sent that you can do that (HEB 11:4-6).

So while we have the assurance that every tribe, nation people and language will be in Heaven, these ignorant people are not good. God will punish men for their sin (EX 32:34, PS 89:32). Unbelievers are literally in a state of bondage to sin, being their nature (JN 8:34-6). Now if you had the power to free them would you?

This is the Good News of Jesus Christ. We are flesh and blood and our spirit is sinful by nature if not already tainted by sin as I tried to explain before. And flesh and blood cannot inherit Heaven (1CO 15:50). When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we are born again, and our souls have the indwelling Holy Spirit (RO 15:16, 1CO 6:19, EPH 1:13, T!T 3:5). We are justified by Christ, and so now can store up treasure in Heaven by doing those things that are pleasing to God.

Would you deny that to those that haven't heard of Jesus?

 

[wms]

Just went and listened to Josh McDowell tonight in person at Calvary Chapel. This thread is right on. He said that only about 10% of the averge Christians could defend the Bible.

Maybe because only about 10% of people who say they are Christians are really saved. Many people say they gave all their cares to Christ, or they put their lives in Christ's hands. But few have given their souls to Christ. Those who are truly saved are equipped by the Spirit to represent the one who presents them sinless to God, and they live lives that reflect the life of Christ in them. Few who profess have actually repented and looked to the cross and see Jesus dying for them personally. Few have actually thanked God personally. Hell is full of people who say they love Jesus and live a "christian life". But there is not one person in hell who has been forgiven of their sins, and not one person in heaven who hasn't.

The correct reference is 1CO 7:14.

That's what I meant. I was in a hurry to get to the airport because I had just got called for a trip. I enjoyed the comments you shared on it. This verse is comfort to us Christians with small children.

Sinful nature. Sin. One of the two requires an informed decision. One of the two separates one from God. One of the two cannot be committed by a child, or an individual who is otherwise incompetent to discern good and evil.

True. But if they were able, or as soon as they are able as the case may be, they will. Man is born into sin and sin is inherent. We not sinners because we've sinned, we sin because we're sinners. Sin in our lives is the evedience of what we are.

It could only be said of Jesus what was written of Him in Psalms 53:10, "Upon you I was cast from birth, You have been my God from my mother's womb". For the rest of us Romans 3:23 is the best description, " For all have sinned." All others have looked away from God. It's our inward desire to look away from God that makes us sinners. It was Adam and Eve looking away from God that led to their sin, and that has been passed to us all.

 

[flying4life]

Well guys and Gals, I'll tell ya there's a ton of information here. I didn't even go through it all. I have a lot of questions!! Unfortunately I don't know what to believe anymore. My intellectual mind is having a hard time answering the child like questions.
I grew up being taught the Bible. I had some hard times and came back to it as a late teen. I was "Born Again", but I don't think so anymore. Whenever I had questions of faith I was always told that if I was given the entire answer there would be no need for faith. Also that if it just sounds right and truthful in your heart, you need to believe, but everything I've been taught about Christianity was to not go on feelings or your heart because of your "sin nature".
I'll try to just go to the Bible questions and not make this a rambling thread. I don't know that Jesus is the Christ. I want him to be.... and I'm afraid that when you want something bad enough you'll find ways to see what you want to. For instance, why didn't Jesus write anything himself. Instead of it being God inspired, why isn't it written by him? He came down here to show us how to live and what was right and good..right?
He was on our planet roughly 30 years and he had his ministry for about 3 years. Why don't we have anything on paper from him personally? Many analogies about humans and God are made using parent and child. My question using God as a parental figure is; Why doesn't God give us all the same starting point with the good book and rules and regulations? As a parent you don't have your neighbor tell your kids what's right or wrong. As a kid(Me), you're not my parent, how do I know that what you're telling me is parent inspired and not population control? I know the argument against it too. It's like the burning stove, you don't need your parent to tell you you'll get hurt if you touch it, anyone could, but when my eternal soul is on the line, I'd like to hear it directly from the one who has the ultimate fate of it. Why can't God personally lay it out for me? He did it with Adam and Eve. I am worried about Jesus trying to become self proclaimed. Why did he refernce the Old Testament and say he needed a donkey because it says he must ride into town on one, so someone fetch him one? In the actual bible it sounds like he's reading the prophicies and trying to make them come true.
I'm a doubting Thomas and I'm angry at God for not allowing me to be one of the followers of God to see first hand. I know, they doubted too. However, how awesome is it to be the actual doubting Thomas? Where is my Jesus coming to me asking me to put my fingers though his hands and feet?
I'll tell you I don't even know if I want a reply to this. I can't even believe I'm putting this out there.
The one thing I've learned is that we as people are so young in knowledge. Just in the last couple of hundred years we've excellerated so far beyond what our ancestors ever knew about this planet or universe. Think about it, up until Columbus, the world was flat. We think how naive, but how do we know we're not naive about religion.
God just always seems to be the answer to the unanswerable. I want the hope to be there because I want to believe in something so loving and peaceful and so far above the idiocy of our human race. We do live in a wicked world, but what's so funny is most of our hatefulness is done in the name of God. Wars, Ethnic cleansings, 9-11!! Everything about human nature in the Bible is true. We suck. We lie, kill, covet, disrespect each other, but just because the Bible says that, doesn't mean everything in it is true. I know how bad off we are and I'm not writing a book about it.
I say all of these things in the humblest of manners. I know there are lot's of arguments on this thread about how it came to be. I think that will be one for the ages, but I wonder if in another 2 or 3 hundred years if they'll look back on us and think how naive. Anyway, thanks for reading, plenty of you have great faith and that's awesome, I wish you the best in strivng to be Christ like. As unachievable as it is, the theories of goodness are great.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Where is my Jesus coming to me asking me to put my fingers though his hands and feet?

It's my understanding that a desire for this kind of proof makes you unworthy. A friend of mine once accused me of waiting for what he called the blinding flash. "Stop waiting for some big sign from God," he said. "It doesn't work that way."

I guess that means that those of us who find ourselves unable to suspend rationality are doomed. (Maybe we should try standing too close to the grill next time we have a barbecue. You know, so we can get used to it...)

 

[Super 80]

I was "Born Again", but I don't think so anymore. Whenever I had questions of faith I was always told that if I was given the entire answer there would be no need for faith. Also that if it just sounds right and truthful in your heart, you need to believe, but everything I've been taught about Christianity was to not go on feelings or your heart because of your "sin nature".

Let me answer this small part of what you said, because it's something we all struggle with. Can you lose your salvation?

ISA 40:11 He tends his flock like a shepherd:
He gathers the lambs in his arms
and carries them close to his heart;
he gently leads those that have young.

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one."

The principle here is that you are also one of the ones. You are not stronger than God. If you spoke with your mouth and believed in your heart that Jesus is Lord, then you are saved (RO 10:9).

The image in Isaiah has the lamb which is the believer held up high and God's arms folded, interlocking the legs of the young lamb next to His heart. Hand is also a figurative word which conveys power. God's power is such that no one can take you away from him.

Your lack of faith is not a barrier to God. Just as Thomas whom you liken yourself to is an example to us that those that doubt still have a place with God. Being angry at God does not diminish your salvation, but it does disrupt your fellowship with the Spirit. I can't really address your heart issue in this medium, that's where Christian fellowship, discipleship, and worship at a Church of your choosing will help you to grow stronger in faith.

I'll try to answer some of your points today as they relate to the Bible, and maybe I can give you some intellectual reasons to lay doubt aside.