Bible Defense

[Timebuilder]

Where is my Jesus coming to me asking me to put my fingers though his hands and feet?

The short answer is, it isn't a part of His plan to get people to believe in Him based on some sort of proof. Think about it: this was an exchange between Jesus and a man who had known Him as flesh, one who had seen most of the miraculous healings, seen a few fish and some bread feed thousands of people, and calm a stromy sea. After all Thomas had already seen, he still couldn't fathom that the resurrection had actually happened!

Now why in the world would the Lord see fit to do this proof for you and I, since we have centiries of study, a complete scripture, and fulfilled prophecy? What is He doing instead of a visit to show you His wounds?

John 14:2 says "In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

This is why the Holy Spirit is with us now to minister to us. There are plans unfolding, work being accomplished, and preparations being made.

Rather than repost some of my writing on this I'll just mention that faith is the operative requirement for us in this "church age". Go back and look at what Chirst said to Thomas after He was recognized.

 

[Super 80]

It's my understanding that a desire for this kind of proof makes you unworthy.

Doubting does not make you unworthy.

Expositor's Dictionary:What is the antidote to the wavering faith the NT calls doubt? In Ro 4 Paul points to Abraham and describes the patriarch as being fully aware of his own advanced age and of Sarah's having gone far beyond menopause. The fact is clear: no child can possibly be conceived by these two. Yet God appears to them and promises that Abraham will father a multitude. Paul says of him, "Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old-- and that Sarah's womb was also dead. Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God . . ., being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised" (Ro 4:19-21).

We need only to realize that whatever our circumstances, the overriding fact is the reality of God. He has power to do what he has promised. When we commit ourselves to the Lord and acknowledge him as the ultimate reality, we find an assurance that quiets every doubt and frees us to live obedient lives.

A friend of mine once accused me of waiting for what he called the blinding flash. "Stop waiting for some big sign from God," he said. "It doesn't work that way."

There will be a BIG sign, and many will come to believe.

REV 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."

 

[Typhoon1244]

There will be a BIG sign...

Yes, there will be. And it won't come via angels or brimstone or seven-headed monsters. It will come as the greatest scientific discovery in the history of man. A total understanding of everything in us and around us.

That's what I believe.

 

[TurboS7]

Flying for Life- You have a bunch of very good questions. I can't answer them all, no one can. One thing I do know if that you seek the truth then the truth will set you free.We can argue and explain all we want but there is nothing like the power of the Word of God. You asked why Jesus didn't write the Bible Himself?he did. Men wrote the Bible who were inspired by the Holy Spirit. God consist of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are three yet they are one. The Holy Spirit wrote the scriptures and since God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one-God/Jesus did write the scriptures. The anwer to a bunch of your questions are in the Gospel of John. I would encourage you to go for a long walk, find a place where you won't be disturbed . Get a Bible, what version or translation really doesn't matter, just get one that you are comfortable reading. I don't know what kind of flying you do but this would be something great to do on a nice layover. BTW every hotel room has a Bible in it thanks to the Gideons. Back to the subject, read the Gospel of John. John one of the diciples was the author, but note the way it was written, when you read it suddenly it occurs that John may have wrote it physically but the Author in not John. Work your way through the Gospel, by the time you get to the end of Chapter 3 most of your questions will be answered. By the time you get to the end of the Book everything will fall into place. Next I would encourage you to afterwards go see the movie The Passion directed by Mel Gibson. It is just a movie but I understand it protrays what happened for us on the cross in an awesome way. ( will be out sometime in Feb)Pay real close attention to what happened on the cross in the Gospel of John. Think about it. If you are not saved the Holy Spirit wil convict you, if you are saved the Holy Spirit will teach you. Requardless if you are truly searching you will have your answers by the time you finish reading and studying that book. The Gospel of John.

 

[Super 80]

That's what I believe.

And the basis of your faith is man. So as God has sent angels before, I have every reason to believe this angel will fulfill Jesus' prophecy that the Gospel will be taught in all the world.

P.S. Your reference to the seven heads of the beast is a little off. The seven heads represent a line of Kings over time. Each is a different rendition of Satan in man. Five have been one is and one will be but only for a short time. This is an example of an observer true point of view. Here the observer is the eternal God looking at all of history without the constraint of our linear one dimension of time where we are trapped in the ever present present, seeing only where we are with 20/20 hindsight and backing into the future like a man in a row boat going forward.

Your understanding on matters of the Bible tends to be lacking for want of knowledge of what you speak.

 

[Super 80]

I don't know that Jesus is the Christ. I want him to be.... and I'm afraid that when you want something bad enough you'll find ways to see what you want to. For instance, why didn't Jesus write anything himself. Instead of it being God inspired, why isn't it written by him? He came down here to show us how to live and what was right and good..right?
He was on our planet roughly 30 years and he had his ministry for about 3 years. Why don't we have anything on paper from him personally?

Jesus taught directly. His example was the Father. As Scripture is God-breathed, Jesus gave us the indwelling Holy Spirit to write the Scripture of the New Testament. In the Tanach, God uses the Prophets to speak for Him. They wrote down their visions and utterances, but God never handed them a scroll of His Words. In the same way, Jesus spoke directly to the world, but did not write His Words.

Jesus did teach us how to live. The lessons are recorded for us to read. Furthermore, we have the God-breathed Scripture of the Epistles in how these lessons were put into practice with the Apostles.

I think one of the wonderful stories of illumination was the Centurion that proclaimed the central tenet of the Christian faith. Seeing how Jesus died he came to proclaim Jesus was the Son of God (MK 15:39). He did not die like a crucified man; He did not go out like a dwindling candle where the flame goes out as wax is used up over 24-36 hours. That is how men die on the cross. Jesus raised up on the nails and said in a loud voice; "It is finished!" commended His Spirit to God, and gave up His life.

Likewise, the accounts of those who saw are recorded in the Gospels and the book of Acts. Peter says these were not events they heard of, they saw them (2PE 1:16).

Jesus quoted the Law and said the witness of two is valid (JN 8:14-18). Jesus said the Father was His other witness, as shown in the miracles Jesus performed that no man could ever do by himself. Writing His own Words makes it a witness of one.

 

[Typhoon1244]

And the basis of your faith is man.

Yes, but so is yours...assuming your faith is based on the Bible.

 

[Timebuilder]

Yes, but so is yours...assuming your faith is based on the Bible.

Since you framed your statement on basing one's faith on the Bible, your assertion that such a faith is based on Man is not factually correct.

According to the Bible, in 2Timothy, 3:16-17-

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17
that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

So, according to the Bible, the faith is based on God, not any work of Man. Men were only tools used by God to commit His Word.

 

[TonyC]

I'm going to answer the second question first because it leads to the answer for the first objection.

You can think of sin as being inherited guilt in which we are wrong as a result of Adam’s sin, or an inherited corruption, in that we are all sinful by nature because of Adam’s Fall.

Perhaps YOU can think of sin as being inherited GUILT as a result of Adam's sin, but I cannot. To sin is literally to err, to miss the mark. This cannot be inherited. We have discussed at length, and I believe agree that others suffer consequences when we sin. However, they do not share the guilt for MY sin.

But the one thing about sin is that it is not just by our actions that we are sinful, such as killing or stealing, but in our attitudes, coveting lust, jealousy, anger, and selfishness as well (EX 20:17, MT 5:28, GAL 5:20).

I agree. We also sin when we know to do right, and do it not. (James 4:17)

In a way, Adam represented all of mankind. The Bible teaches that we all came from him, so in that respect each of us has a part in him in that we descended from him. If you are indignant of the idea of Adam representing us, then it equally follows that you would have to reject Jesus as standing in our stead representing each of us as He paid the price for our sin (RO 5:18).

Romans 5:12-21 gives a great description of sin and salvation, and how both were brought to us by one man. Sin by Adam, and Salvation by Jesus Christ. You can try to read into it with prejudice that We all bear the guilt of Adam's sin, but it never says that.

v12 "Through one man sin entered the world ..." Not "through one man all men inherited the guilt of that one man's sin."

v12 Cont "and death through sin" - - we all suffer that consequence - - CONSEQUENCE, not guilt

v12 cont. "and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." not "because one man sinned" It also does not say that death spread to all men because we all have the sin of that one man.

v14 "death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam" If we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin, how could we be described this way, that is, NOT according to the likenes of Adam's sin?

v15 "if by the one man's offense many died" - - they suffered the consequence, it doesn't say, nor does it require that they bore the same guilt.

v17 "by the one man's offense death reigned" - - death, yes. Guilt, no.

v18 "through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation" - - judgment, yes condemnation, yes guilt, no

v19 "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" sinners, yes guilty of Adam's sin, no

Now if whether we are sinful by nature or inherit it, each of us carries it with us from the time we are conceived (RO 3:23). Being self-oriented (rather than selfish because not all selfish motives are bad) carries with it the characteristic of being against God’s nature. This is just as much of a sin as the attitudes of plotting evil, or coveting or wanton lust.

I don't quite understand the "self-oriented" concept you introduced when you described your pastor's comments about children. I've had a little experience with infants, and am a little puzzled by your "accusation." When a baby comes into this world, he wants nothing other than to eat, sleep, and be comfortable. If he's crying because he's hungry, I don't consider him to be "self-oriented" any more than Any of us are when we are hungry. Is it a sin to be hungry? If the baby is sleepy and is being kept from sleeping, I don't think badly of my "self-oriented" baby that is crying because of his pain and discomfort. And when the baby is crying because the burn of urine on his skin is painful, it never enters my mind to fear his condition with the Lord because of his "self-oriented" cry. None of these hardly qualifies as SIN - - erring, missing the mark. A baby crying for his mother's milk can hardly be compared to a man guilty of wanton lust.

Children do not have to be taught how to do wrong (PS 51:5; 58:3). But we have to teach them what is right (DT 6:7, EPH 6:4). But we all have sin, no matter how young, or ignorant of the law, because sin existed before the Law was given (RO 5:13-14). So those that are apart from the Law are not excused from sin, and their physical death shows they are under the same penalty as all men are from the time of Adam.

They do not have to be taught to DO wrong, I agree. They have to be taught that it IS wrong, and what IS right, in order for them to differentiate. Until then, they cannot be held accountable. Until they know what God's will IS, they cannot possibly know to ERR, or miss the mark.

If these people are ignorant of God, they are not worshipping God. And that is a sin too. They still have the possibility of redemption by God, but there is no treasure awaiting them by being in obedience of God’s commands. Literally without knowledge of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, they have no ability to do what is good.

I bring up this issue because you seem so content to dismiss the case of the infant or young child as being judged by God apart from the law. I don't buy that there is a special case for the infant, nor a special case for the jungle native. There is but one plan for salvation, and it was preached by Peter to the men and women in Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost. It requires action, obedience, mental activity - - a decision - - and an infant can do none of those. In my estimation, an infant is incapable of sin, and so cannot sin, and therefore is not separated from God. Once the child grows to appreciate not just good and bad, but the consequences of sin, and God's will for us to serve him, THEN when he disobeys God - - THAT is sin, and THAT sin separates HIM from God. All along, from conception on, he is subject to death - - the punishment brought to the world by Adam's sin - - but he never assumes the GUILT for Adam's sin.

This is the Good News of Jesus Christ. We are flesh and blood and our spirit is sinful by nature if not already tainted by sin as I tried to explain before. And flesh and blood cannot inherit Heaven (1CO 15:50). When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we are born again, and our souls have the indwelling Holy Spirit (RO 15:16, 1CO 6:19, EPH 1:13, T!T 3:5). We are justified by Christ, and so now can store up treasure in Heaven by doing those things that are pleasing to God.

Would you deny that to those that haven't heard of Jesus?

That doesn't sound much like what Peter told the audience in Jerusalem in Acts 2. But I digress. It appears that we could carry on a multitude of threads concerning doctrinal differences, and that would be a meaty one.

Romans 3:23 (NKJV) "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Substitute the definition of sin: "for all have erred and fall short of the glory of God"

or "for all have missed the mark and fall short of the glory of God"

The Greek: hamartanô It's a verb, not a label. When you miss the mark, you don't share in the prize.


EDITED only for spelling error - - I HATE it when I let those slip by!

 

[TonyC]

I'll take a swing at that, Tony, if you don't mind.

While the Bible is the Word of God, it is not the TOTAL of information that could have been imparted to us. It is the part that God desires to impart to us. There are any number of topics that God could have addressed, but did not.

God most likely has a plan in place for literally every contingency, including babies and their judgement according to the "all have sinned" doctrine of Romans, 3:23.

As believers we can assume the aspects of God's character that we already know, including that He is consistent, even if we cannot find scripture to answer all of our questions.

I was going to respond to this earlier, but I see that while I was away you responded to yourself.

According to the Bible, in 2Timothy, 3:16-17-

"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work."

God has given us the entire plan of salvation - - we hear His word, we repent of our sins, turning away from a lifestyle of sin, we confess Christ before men, we obey Him in baptism, and we walk faithfully until death.

We are indeed THOUROUGHLY equipped - - COMPLETELY equipped. He hasn't left any of the important parts out of the Bible so we have to defer to some mystery of salvation. It's all there.

Not only is an infant incapable of offending God, and is therefore not in need of salvation, he is incapable of doing the things that would be required for salvation.

 

[wms]

I was "Born Again", but I don't think so anymore.

This a concern and an encouragement. If you were truly born again you cannot be lost, Heb 13:5 "for He hath said I will never leave thee nor forsake Thee." We may doubt ourselves but God will never forsake us. We're saved not because we hold to Him, but because He holds us. But possibly you weren't saved. Realizing your false profession is a work of the Spirit. If you don't feel you're lost, you can't be found. The fact you are concerned about this is also a work of the Spirit. The Lord said "seek and ye shall find." He also said "every one that is of the truth heareth my voice", Jn 18:37. If you believe in God and are sincere about wanting to know the truth, then in prayer ask God himself to show you and He will, "with God all things are possible," Matt 19:26. When you look to the cross what do you see? Christ dying for your sins, Or some guy trying to shape his life to match prophesy.

In the actual bible it sounds like he's reading the prophicies and trying to make them come true.

ALL of the prophesies concerning the birth, life, death resurrection and ascension of the Christ were fulfilled in Jesus. How could He force Himself to be born in Bethlehem? How could He force His parents to move to Egypt and then Nazareth? How could He force a guard to pierce His side with a spear when He was on the cross? Yet all these things were foretold in the Bible. How could He manipulate the things around Him so that over 400 details of prophesy about Him would be fulfilled 100%?

I want the hope to be there because I want to believe in something so loving and peaceful and so far above the idiocy of our human race.

1 John 4:10, " Here in is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be a propitiation (pay-back) for our sins".

Well guys and Gals, I'll tell ya there's a ton of information here. I didn't even go through it all. I have a lot of questions!! Unfortunately I don't know what to believe anymore. My intellectual mind is having a hard time answering the child like questions.

While you're asking questions, ask yourself one...
When I die I'm going to H_______ .
I'm not being harsh, but sincerely hope you find what I think you know to be the truth. A little self-examination goes a long way.

 

[wms]

Perhaps YOU can think of sin as being inherited GUILT as a result of Adam's sin, but I cannot. To sin is literally to err, to miss the mark. This cannot be inherited. We have discussed at length, and I believe agree that others suffer consequences when we sin. However, they do not share the guilt for MY sin.

What is inherited is the desire to turn from God, and ultimately His Son, which is the sinful nature within us that leads to the sinful acts we commit.

Romans 3:11, " there is none that seeketh after God."

John 16:8 & 9, " and when He is come he will reprove (convince) the world of... sin because they believe not on me."

 

[Timebuilder]

You can try to read into it with prejudice that We all bear the guilt of Adam's sin, but it never says that.

No.

It says this: (Romans, 3:23)

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This is pretty much self explanatory. The best people in Bible study agree that this message of being born sinful is indeed an accurate interpretation of scripture.

The question of a child's inability to engage actively in either sin or salvation is a separate question. I feel assured that their original sin is provided for, whether God has chosen to explain this to us in scripture, or not.

Since God has this covered, I wouldn't "over think" this issue.

 

[TonyC]

No.

It says this: (Romans, 3:23)

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

This is pretty much self explanatory. [/b]

Apparently, it is NOT self-explanatory, as clearly many people have chosen to interpret it in vastly different ways.

Apparently, also, you didn't read to the end of my post (5 above) where I addressed this very verse. To save you the time looking, I'll review:

Romans 3:23 (NKJV) "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,"

Substitute the definition of sin: "for all have erred and fall short of the glory of God"

or "for all have missed the mark and fall short of the glory of God"

The Greek: hamartanô It's a verb, not a label. When you miss the mark, you don't share in the prize.

Again - - "sinned" is not a noun. It is a verb. It does not say that all HAVE sin, the sin of Adam. It says that all HAVE SINNED - - VERB - - ACTION.

The best people in Bible study agree that this message of being born sinful is indeed an accurate interpretation of scripture.

The question of a child's inability to engage actively in either sin or salvation is a separate question. I feel assured that their original sin is provided for, whether God has chosen to explain this to us in scripture, or not.

The "best people ... agree", huh? So those who don't share your view are inferior? Hmmmm.

Whether you "FEEL" assured or not is, frankly, not the issue here. Doctrine according to the Bible is far more important.

Since God has this covered, I wouldn't "over think" this issue.

We can agree, I'm sure, that God has everything covered. That's not the issue. What it boils down to is the doctrine of Original Sin, that is, the doctrine that all men bear the GUILT for Adam's sin, has far-reaching implications. The Catholic church, for instance, would have you believe this doctrine and teaches infant baptism as the method of restoring the infant to God. Absent the time required to accomplish this, a Catholic priest can administer "Last Rites" to a gravely-ill infant and "earn" the salvation FOR the soul. I know you will have a hard time finding THAT teaching in the Bible.

Try for a moment to distinguish between the propensity of man to sin - - his inclination, if you will - - and the ACT of sinning. I've used alcholism as an example many times, I'll try that again. It is not a man's DESIRE to abuse alcohol that condemns him - - it is the ABUSE thereof. If he is able to overcome the desire, or keep the desire in check, he remains sober. The tendancy to abuse alcohol is not the problem.

Likewise, it is not man's desire to sin that condemns him - - his inclination to serve self is not the problem. It is a curse owed to Adam that he HAS the desire, the inclination to sin. But it is only when he actually DOES sin that he incurs a debt for HIS OWN sin. That debt, as we know, is death. Spiritual death. Separation from God. Why? Because death was introduced to the world through Adam's sin, and it is a consequence we all suffer as a result. But we suffer that consequence not because we owe a price for Adam eating of the fruit. We suffer the consequence for OUR sin because We sin.

The two concepts -- sin, ans sinful nature -- are inextricably linked together, and certainly intertwined, so it's understandable that one might find it difficult to separate the two. Approaching the subject with a bias, and feeling that your bias is "best" makes it all that more difficult.

You may think that you've left the Catholic church behind and moved on to better things. But if you hold on to the concept of Original Sin, you're still clinging to a Catholic Doctrine.

 

[Super 80]

I am worried about Jesus trying to become self proclaimed. Why did he refernce the Old Testament and say he needed a donkey because it says he must ride into town on one, so someone fetch him one? In the actual bible it sounds like he's reading the prophicies and trying to make them come true.

This is one criticism of Jesus. And taken by itself, it does exactly like you put it. Put into context though, there is a reasonable explanation for this one occurrence. However, the larger part to consider on Christ's fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies is to examine what He did not have control over.

The donkey was sometimes ridden by rulers in peace. The word Jerusalem literally means "foundation of peace." In riding the donkey, even if He has to summon for it, Jesus is declaring Himself as King and coming in peace to the crowning city of God which is peace. This is inline with the last days of Jesus. He has taken the Disciples on a whirlwind tour of Israel, their finishing course of discipleship as it were, and approached Jerusalem from one of the head waters of the Jordan River from Caesarea Philippi, a pagan worship center with idols of Pan carved into the limestone cliff face where a spring flowed. Here Simon proclaimed Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the Living God. This is where Jesus called Simon -Petros (masculine) and on that rock -petra (feminine for the Church) He would build His Church. The irony of the word play against the backdrop of the pagan worship literally carved into rock should not be lost in looking for the meaning and commission given Peter.

But in coming forth in this manner, Jesus is revealing His place. That it is manufactured does nothing to diminish the significance of the statement Jesus is making. It is as if to say: 'well, if you don't get it yet, let me make it perfectly clear as to who I am.'

Now I want you to examine just some of the messianic prophecies that Jesus could not have controlled. I will try to be my own skeptic here because I came from the same place that you're coming from; worse, I ridiculed the entire aspect of prophecy fulfilled. I could do it before I knew how much there was to what was said.

Jesus had no control of His birth. He had no control over His lineage that united the line of David from Joseph with the Priestly line of the Levites from Mary. There is no way Jesus could insure Mary was a virgin at birth. Jesus had no control over the place of His birth, Bethlehem. Jesus was not responsible for Herod the Great killing all those under the age of two. Jesus could have had no say in escaping to Egypt or coming back from it.

Now you can say that all these are certainly circumstance, and Joseph and Mary used these to bolster their son to fulfill the rest. And on its own, you're right. They could just be circumstantial, but the point is that they are part of a larger part of prophecy that was beyond Jesus' control. And the significant part, is all those that could have fallen into one of these categories, Jesus was in all of them, so just as a matter of coincidence, the probability rises to an astronomical level past most safe bets for one to fit all these circumstances by happenstance or even design.

But let's look at some other prophecy. Jesus healed the people. He brought sight to the blind, and hearing to the deaf. That's still a miracle today even with all our modern medicine. He was rejected by His own, the Jewish leaders of His day. He was betrayed by a friend (even if He sent him out, Judas did not have to follow through). Judas was paid thirty pieces of silver. If you want to say the whole thing is a conspiracy now the Jewish leaders have to have had a hand in that conspiracy. At what point does the scam have too many participants to stay secret?

Next we find Jesus accused by false witness in His trial. He is crucified with His hands pierced, among criminals. After He dies, His side is pierced and unlike the two criminals on either side, none of His bones are broken. Jesus had no control over these circumstances. Now while His prayer for His executioners was under His control, the Roman soldiers casting dice for His cloak were not, unless you want to widen the conspiracy to these pagans too.

Finally we have the miracle of His resurrection and ascension to Heaven witnessed by hundreds. And if He hadn't gone, then He couldn't send the Holy Spirit to you. Now you can have something man hasn't been able to have before Christ and that is a personal relationship with God. Listen carefully, and if you're seeking after God, you will hear Him. And when you do, it'll be the Holy Spirit calling to you. Welcome home.

 

[Super 80]

This is a short list for reference:

Messianic Prophecies Fulfilled in Christ
(Presented in the Order of Their Fulfillment)

Subject of Prophecy / Scripture Stating Prophecy / Scripture Stating Fulfillment

Born of the seed of a woman: Genesis 3:15; Galatians 4:4
Born of the seed of Abraham: Genesis 12:2-3; Matthew 1:1
Born of the seed of Isaac Genesis: 17:19; Matthew 1:2
Born of the seed of Jacob: Numbers 24:17; Matthew 1:2
Descended from the tribe of Judah: Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:33
Heir to the throne of David: Isaiah 9:7; Luke 1:32-33
Time for Jesus’ birth: Daniel 9:25; Luke 2:1-2
Born of a virgin: Isaiah 7:14; Luke 1:26-27, 30-31
Born in Bethlehem: Micah 5:2; Luke 2:4-7
Slaughter of the innocents: Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18
Flight to Egypt: Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15
Preceded by a forerunner: Isaiah 40:3-5 & Malachi 3:1; Luke 7:24, 27
Declared the Son of God: Psalm 2:7; Matthew 3:16-17
Galilean ministry: Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:13-17
The prophet to come: Deuteronomy 18:15; Acts 3:20, 22
Came to heal the brokenhearted: Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:18-19
Rejected by his own (the Jews): Isaiah 53:3; John 1:11
A priest after the order of Melchizedek: Psalm 110:4; Hebrews 5:5-6
Triumphal entry: Zechariah 9:9; Mark 11:7, 9, 11
Betrayed by a friend: Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:47, 48
Sold for thirty pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12-13; Matthew 26:15; 27:5-7
Accused by false witness: Psalm 35:11; Mark 14:57-58
Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7; Mark 15:4, 5
Spat upon and smitten: Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67
Hated without reason: Psalm 35:19; John 15:24, 25
Vicarious sacrifice: Isaiah 53:5; Romans 5:6, 8
Crucified with transgressors: Isaiah 53:12; Mark 15:27, 28
Hands pierced: Zechariah 12:10; John 20:27
Scorned and mocked: Psalm 22:7-8; Luke 23:35
Given vinegar and gall: Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34
Prayer for his enemies: Psalm 109:4; Luke 23:34
Soldiers gambled for his coat: Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35
No bones broken: Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-33, 36
Side pierced: Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34
Buried with the rich: Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60
Would rise from the dead: Psalm 16:10; 49:15; Mark 16:6-7
Would ascend to God’s right hand: Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9

 

[Super 80]

You may think that you've left the Catholic church behind and moved on to better things. But if you hold on to the concept of Original Sin, you're still clinging to a Catholic Doctrine.

Tony, I have the Systematic Theology by Grudem which is from an Evangelical perspective with his chapter on sin which covers this issue. The commonly referred Original Sin, can be thought of in two ways, one: inherited guilt, or two: inherited corruption.

So there is a Biblical principle that Paul brings forth best that equates sin as coming into the world or originating with one man. He puts physical death as a mark that each of us carries the stigma of this 'original sin' with us. As a kind of shorthand for an attribute that is inherited, to use this wording saves time. I agree with the idea of inherited corruption as the best way I can think of it as being transferred to us. This has the advantage of being inline with generational curses and what David writes about his sin nature from before his birth.

Now how to reconcile the child to God after birth? Well I think the New Testament has a reference that says when a child is born to believers, that process has already begun. I can show you examples in the Bible that people who were baptised by the Apostles were first brought into belief. This is not possible with new born infants. So while I was baptised as a baby, and didn't come to accept the Lord as my Savior until 17; my first act of obedience came at 40 when I was baptised.

 

[Timebuilder]

Again - - "sinned" is not a noun. It is a verb. It does not say that all HAVE sin, the sin of Adam. It says that all HAVE SINNED - - VERB - - ACTION.

We have all sinned by the action (verb) of being, by our existance as memeber's of Adam's line.

The "best people" are those who are the most respected and widely read in Bible study. The rest are not "inferior", they simply hold a view that is not in agreement with what is clearly the understanding of this scripture by many faithful and scholarly people.

Think about this: the scripture in question, Romans 3:23, speaks to those who had lived before, were living at that time, and had yet to be born, yet ALL is the operative term. Even those not yet born who did not have an oppportunity to "miss the mark." The only possible explanation then is "all have sinned" because it is a part of our human nature, and does come to us from the earthly father of all humans, Adam.

Whether you "FEEL" assured or not is, frankly, not the issue here. Doctrine according to the Bible is far more important.

We can only "feel assured" that God has a plan for what we might call "loose ends" because of what God has not chosen to address in scripture.

While the doctrine of the Bible is important, indeed, we can accept the plain and clear meaning and accept the answers to the questions that are not addressed by the Bible as being in the wise province of God. It is not unresaonable, for example, to believe that a baby's original sin is covered by Christ's sacrifice on the cross. As humans, we can only understand that scarifice partially, as it applies to our own lives. We cannot understand what other parts are at work where we ourselves are not involved, or have no scriptural reference.

 

[Super 80]

Why can't God personally lay it out for me? He did it with Adam and Eve.

This is one of those areas where we as Americans carry some baggage with us when we approach God as portrayed in the Bible. We tend to look for things to be "self-evident." That is, from our experience, we find what things work and what doesn't. We are as Americans concerned with progress. Coming from the Old World, the New World was endless with possibilities and there was no road to follow. The earliest Americans literally had to make their own roads. Now faced with the challenge to build, the question was how to do it best with the quickest solution. We also tend to measure how far we've progressed in what we have accomplished. This national characteristic is inherent with us today as a complaint of the Europeans. Given a new process, instead of appreciating the philosopher or scientist that invented it, we sit there and try to figure out how to do it quicker for less money.

By the same way, this country started as a collection of experiments in society and government. What was long argued out by long intricate dialectics where the winning argument assumed the mantle of truth as in the Old World of Europe, here was put in the crucible of practice in the marketplace and human interaction. If an idea didn't work out, it would be discarded. The epitome of this American attitude is embraced in the state motto of Missouri, the show me state.

Because God does not, as in the Old Testament tradition, show Himself to everyone like He did to Abraham or Gideon, having a personal experience is not the norm. The limit of physically being present in a three dimensional world with a linear timeline also precludes a universal standard of personal knowledge. To overcome this, God proclaimed there would be a time when He would pour out His Spirit (ISA 44:3, JOEL 2:28). This is the same Spirit Jesus promised He would send (LK 24:49).

So we cannot all be like Adam and Eve. But we have something more. And because we do not have direct experience does not invalidate the truth, no matter what standard we are accustomed to by our culture. As Jesus said; "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (JN 20:29). So in coming to God in faith carries a blessing with it from God, and faith comes from understanding and that comes from reading. So I would echo what wms and TurboS7 said: to read the Gospel of John as a starting point again.

 

[CFI'er]

The Bible, A Form Of Law

The Bible, in pure form, is like our Constitution. It is a way to control the masses with written law and explain the unknown.

Question; Why is there no mention of dinosaurs' in the Bible scriptures?

Answer; Man did not know of the dinosaur’s existence when the authors wrote the Bible. Only present knowledge can appear in written form.