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Bible Defense

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TWA Dude said:
I truly don't understand the concept of Original Sin.

Adam was created in the image of God. He was created sinless, and pure. After being told, by God, not to eat of the fruit from the tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden. He was tempted and ultimately ate from the tree he was expressly forbidden to eat from. Which is Original Sin. The root word of original being origin. Adam eating of the fruit he was forbidden to eat was the inception of sin, and thus a nature to sin in all who followed after Adam. This sin nature flows from Adam to us as we are all direct descendants of Adam.

A child is not blameless, because that child is born with the nature to sin. I believe that stillborn children and children that die before they are able to understand that Christ died for their sins do indeed rise into heaven.
 
Iceman21 said:
A child is not blameless, because that child is born with the nature to sin. I believe that stillborn children and children that die before they are able to understand that Christ died for their sins do indeed rise into heaven.
Pardon me if I seem ignorant by making this observation, but these two sentences seem to be contradictory.

If a child is with blame (another way of saying "not blameless")... if a child is born with blame, then the child is in a lost condition, as SIN separates one from God. God cannot exist with SIN. It is only through the blood of Jesus Christ that SIN can be washed away, and one is then blameless and restored to God.

In the next sentence, you state your belief that these children, who are by your estimation "with blame" nonetheless are taken into heaven to be with God, who cannot tolerate SIN. How can this be possible?

If indeed the child is with blame, then there must be a washing away of the SIN before the child can be restored into a relationship with God. (Or perhaps you think of it as ESTABLISHING a relationship, since no relationship ever existed?) Since the Bible doesn't describe any such mechanism, then it would logically follow that all children that are unable to understand their plight and make a decision to repent from sin and OBEY God's commands must therefore be doomed to an eternity in Hell.

Sin is willful disobedience of God's law. To willfully disobey requires a knowledge of right and wrong, a concept an infant can hardly grasp. Anyone who has raised a child knows there is a vast difference between the baby's cry for milk when she is hungry (selfish? not) and a teenager's defiance of house rules. An infant's "selfish" cry for milk is not willful disobedience - - it is not sin.
 
Iceman:

Thanks for the explanation though I'm afraid I wasn't clear in expressing my confusion. I understand what the Original Sin was. What I don't understand is the point of it. If my father commits a crime I don't go to jail for it but the way I see it Original Sin does just that. I happen to not believe that we need to atone for anyone's sins other than our own. This discussion began when Super 80 asked for my personal view.

Dude
 
TWA Dude said:
What I don't understand is the point of it. If my father commits a crime I don't go to jail for it but the way I see it Original Sin does just that. I happen to not believe that we need to atone for anyone's sins other than our own. This discussion began when Super 80 asked for my personal view.
And this is a very good discussion, not to put you under the spotlight but to bring out a principle that is in the Bible, both books, that sin is something that is innate to everyone. The principle here is the transferrence of sin from one generation to the next. Because we are made in the image of God, we carry certain attributes and responsibilities.

One, while not as powerful as God's Word in creating, what we say has power. Do watch your tongue. When you bless and curse, those have repercussions. So also do vows. The ancients understood this much better than us modern scientific people, but that's an area where I think we have forgotten important lessons.

Another is headship. As God is the Father, so are we as men in a special role as husband and father. We are responsible for everyone under our care, our wife at our side (who completes us reminds us in how to have relationships and helps us become what we should be) and our children. This responsibility extends even to all our possessions.

As the head, then our family is our body. What we do is transferred to our offspring. Adam's sin was transferred to Cain and Abel. One did right by the Lord, and one did not, but they each had to atone for the sin they inherited from their father. (In an interesting way, Eve did not introduce sin, but Adam did, because God commanded the man not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.)

Here is a story of a man that sinned against God's commandment not to take anything from Jericho, that the gold, silver, bronze and iron were to go into the treasury of the Lord's house. He was found out when Israel suffered because of his unfaithfulness to heed the commands of God. Here is how he was punished.
JOS 7:19 Then Joshua said to Achan, "My son, give glory to the LORD, the God of Israel, and give him the praise. Tell me what you have done; do not hide it from me."

JOS 7:20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, two hundred shekels of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."

JOS 7:22 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver underneath. 23 They took the things from the tent, brought them to Joshua and all the Israelites and spread them out before the LORD.

JOS 7:24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. 26 Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor ever since.
You see, sin is pervasive and it runs in generational lines. From Adam it has gone on and from this account in Joshua is a vivid example that sin falls not only on the man, but everyone under him.
 
Super 80 said:
Here is how he was punished.You see, sin is pervasive and it runs in generational lines. From Adam it has gone on and from this account in Joshua is a vivid example that sin falls not only on the man, but everyone under him.

Your example seems to me an example of collective punishment. The OT has many examples of G-d's wrath affecting whole peoples regardless of direct involvement in the sin.

Back to the Original Sin thing, what confuses me is the idea that one must be "saved" from something that someone else committed, in this case Adam. In the Biblical sense it's true that we're all being punished because of sins committed in the Garden of Eden but why must individual culpability continue as well?
 
Because aside from carrying the sin of Adam, we can individually accept or not accept God's leadership in our lives. We not only need to accept the free gift of salvation ("Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6) but we need to model Him as much as we are able to do, and struggle to imitate, not attain, a sinless life.

The salvation covers all of our sin; the sin we are born with and the sin we commit individually.
 
TWA Dude said:
Why must individual culpability continue as well?
To be honest, I don't know why it is.

I think the short answer is that it is inherited. That is why genealogy is so important. Look at what happens to the tribe of Dan for instance. Because of the actions of a generation, the descendants are left out in the cold so to speak.

Why was the earth cursed for Adam's sin? God does not say. But Adam's sin has fallen to every man (and Eve's curse to every woman) ever since. We all have to scratch out a living from the earth.

So as a principle of theology in the Judeo-Christian line of worship, sin originated with Adam, and is passed to everyone. That is why everyone's heart is wicked by nature. That is why children's hearts are folly too. That is why God punishes to the third and fourth generation those that hate Him. It is in these examples where I have tried to show you where the concept of original sin is supported in the Tanach. Here is another example:
JER 16:10b 'Why has the LORD decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the LORD our God?' 11 then say to them, `It is because your fathers forsook me,' declares the LORD, `and followed other gods and served and worshiped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law. 12 But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me.
The idea of each of us being born into the sin of our fathers, then speaks of a need for redemption from that sin which is against God. In the Law, that atonement is made every year on Yom Kippur which covers the whole nation of Israel. However, what happens to a person that dies during the year when he has sinned after Yom Kippur? If he has not atoned to God for his sin, does not the Law convict him?

So even for the observant Jew, he has need for redemption by God. But what the Law instituted does not give an absolute pardon:
PS 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
--although the Law required them to be made.

The Law sets the stage for the fulfillment of God's Salvation; a perfect sacrifice.
 
Suffering from someone else's sin, and being accountable for that person's sin are two completely different things.

If my father were an alchoholic, wife-beating child-abuser, I would suffer long-term repercussions from having lived in a household of tragedy. My future would be marred in a myriad of ways. My name in the community would be associated with the reputation of my father's name. My psychological make-up would be scarred by his actions. Certainly, the finances of his household would carry over to my life in a negative way.

On the other hand, if my father were a kind, gentle, model citizen, father, husband and businessman, I would also be affected by him. The examples I would have to follow and the environment I would be raised in all would have an affect on me personally. I would "suffer" (in a positive way) the lack of sins of my father.

But in neither case would I assume blame for my father's actions. I could no more take credit for his success as a father, husband, and businessman than I could take the blame for his alcoholism, abusiveness, and professional failure.

The children of Israel suffered because of Achan's sin, but they were in no means responsible for it. Achan alone was responsible for Achan's sin, and Achan alone could repent. Ultimately, it was Achan alone who was burned and stoned.

When a man stands before God on Judgment day, he will give an account for those things which HE alone has done, or not done. He will answer for his OWN obedience, or lack thereof. He will not be called to account for the sins of his father, or his grandfather, or Adam.

Eve did not introduce sin? How do you figure?

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.


Clearly, Eve knew not to eat of the tree. She told the serpent what God had commanded. She did it anyway. THEN she convinced Adam to do the same (verse 6). As a result, God imposed 3 curses, in the order of the offenses. First, Satan (the serpent) was cursed because of what he had done. Second, Eve was cursed for what she had done. Finally, Adam was cursed for what he had done.

We all suffer, in a way, because of what Adam and Eve did. Women suffer pain in childbirth, men must work the ground and fight thorns and thistles to make it produce. Look around us - - we're not in the Garden of Eden any more. Why? Well, it's a consequence of Adam and Eve's sin. Do we have to answer on the day of Judgment for Eve eating from the tree? No. We're not responsible for her sin. But it affects us.
 
I think Tony has it right.

First off, I believe that any judgment will be fair. If a young child dies without having reached an age to understand sin and salvation, then I think that God will take that into account.

The Bible does say that in the absence of God's specific words (which we have) that Creation itself testifies to God's presence. Since a lost African tribe, just for example, will not have knowledge of Jesus and the Bible, they will be judged to a different standard than those of us who do.

Secondly, we are not judged for the sins of someone else. We do inherit the sinful nature, but we sin of our own free will. We are judged on the basis of the decisions that we make of our free will.

As Tony said, we do suffer the consequences of our actions even if we are forgiven. As the movie, O Brother Whereart Thou? put it, "Jesus may have forgiven you, but the state of Mississippi hasn't.":D Unfortunately, these consequences affect not only ourselve, but our spouses, children, families, friends and society as a whole.
 
TonyC said:
Suffering from someone else's sin, and being accountable for that person's sin are two completely different things.
I am not talking about being accountable for someone else's sin, but how sin is passed down through the generations. One sin sets up the condition of another. The original sin taints all of us, and further sin has further repercussions as evidenced by the accounts I have given from the Law and the Prophets.
TonyC said:
The children of Israel suffered because of Achan's sin, but they were in no means responsible for it. Achan alone was responsible for Achan's sin, and Achan alone could repent. Ultimately, it was Achan alone who was burned and stoned.
Huh? Achan was stoned, but didn't you read where they rounded up his entire household? Didn't you read where after they had stoned Achan, they stoned the rest?

Don't you remember the story of Daniel in the Lion's Den? When he had survived the night by God's hand, those that had accused him were thrown in:
DA 6:24 At the king's command, the men who had falsely accused Daniel were brought in and thrown into the lions' den, along with their wives and children. And before they reached the floor of the den, the lions overpowered them and crushed all their bones.
Look, I don't have to make this up. If you all are going to be indignant at the suggestion that sin is pervasive, and is an inherited quality, then you're going to be indignant towards God that set it up that way. Why was the Earth cursed? Because of Adam's sin. How was this linked? I don't know, but the principle is established by God that sin affects more than just the person.

If I am wrong, then how is it that those people spoken of in Jeremiah 16 are suffering because of their father's sin? Or how is it that Paul said:
RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
If you are going to make doctrine for yourself, then at least that doctrine ought to be consistent throughout the Bible. If you want to say you only pay for your own sin, then how do you reconcile the accounts I have quoted that there is a consequence for sins that happened in your generational line?
TonyC said:
Eve did not introduce sin? How do you figure?
You quoted Eve, I was refering to God's command to Adam.
GE 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
This is why from a very legalistic standpoint, Paul says what he says in Romans 5:12. Sin was introduced when Adam, who in one reading of the Genesis account can be legitimately standing mute along side Eve the entire time she is tempted, ate.
 
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First off, I believe that any judgment will be fair. If a young child dies without having reached an age to understand sin and salvation, then I think that God will take that into account.

Right on the money.

In the Bible, God makes it clear that He desires to forgive us, using the manner that He has set out for us to achieve forgiveness, and does not seek to punish or destroy us. Those who know the plan and refuse it will suffer a judgement that only He will decide, and He will do so fairly.
 
Let me put out my thinking on how this sin issue affects us.

Because of Adam's sin, everyone after him suffers a consequence -being apart from God.

This is very much inline with Scripture that records being out of God's favor when He hides His face from you.

Sin literally separates us from God. This is an inherited quality as a consequence from previous generations in our line.

As a condition of sin, we remain separated from God and need some covering for it to reconcile us to God. As a rule of the Law, God set the shedding of blood for the remission of sin.
LEV17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
 
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Super 80 said:
Don't you remember the story of Daniel in the Lion's Den? When he had survived the night by God's hand, those that had accused him were thrown in:
The punishment of the false accusers by the king can not be equated to God punishing a sinner. It was the KING - - not God - - that had the false accusers and their families thrown into the lion's den.
Super 80 said:
If you all are going to be indignant at the suggestion that sin is pervasive, and is an inherited quality, then you're going to be indignant towards God that set it up that way.
I entered into this discussion to comment on the plight of an infant who dies. We can agree that man has a sinful nature, and that the effects of sin are both pervasive and enduring. We are not in Eden as a result of the sin in the garden. Children of alcoholics suffer as a result of their alcoholic parents' sins. Suffering for sins, and being accountable for sins, are not the same. I am accountable for what I do, and you are accountable for what you do. Each man will give an account for himself on the day of judgment.

I estimate that you esteem an infant to be in a state of sin, condemned to hell. What mechanism do you know of that will remedy the state of such an infant?

I agree that humans have a sinful nature. NATURE. The scripture you present establishes that without a doubt. The difference in our view seems to lie in that while a man has a sinful nature, it is not his NATURE that condemns him, but his SIN.

Super 80 said:
Why was the Earth cursed? Because of Adam's sin. How was this linked? I don't know, but the principle is established by God that sin affects more than just the person.

If I am wrong, then how is it that those people spoken of in Jeremiah 16 are suffering for their father's sin?
Suffering from someone's sin - - is not the same as being responsible for it, or having to give an answer for it. The infant child of an alcoholic father is not condemned for his father's alcoholism. Will the infant suffer? Most assuredly.

Super 80 said:
Or how is it that Paul said:
RO 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--
Note that he says that death comes to all men because ALL sinned - - not because Adam sinned. Sin separates us from God, and until we have the capacity to sin, we are not separated. When we develop the capacity to sin, and then DO sin, that sin separates us from God. It is then that we require the blood of Christ to wash away that sin and restore us into a right relationship with God.

Super 80 said:
If you are going to make doctrine for yourself, then at least that doctrine ought to be consistent throughout the Bible. If you want to say you only pay for your own sin, then how do you reconcile the accounts I have quoted?
I know you to be a more objective debater than that. I'm not making doctrine for myself, but reading what the Bible says. Surely you've run across people that interpret the Bible differently than you.

As for consistentcy, I believe it is there. History is replete with examples of the sins of one resulting in the suffering of many. Nowhere does it tell me that I must atone for my ancestors' sins.
Super 80 said:
You quoted Eve, I was refering to God's command to Adam.
I quoted Eve quoting God, so what's the difference? Are you submitting that Eve, in taking of the fruit, did not sin?

Super 80 said:
This is why from a very legalistic standpoint, Paul says what he says in Romans 5:12. Sin was introduced when Adam, who in one reading of the Genesis account can be legitimately standing mute along side Eve the entire time she is tempted, ate.
"who in one reading"... what? Not only does it sound like you're making stuff up, now - - and I really have come to repsect your debating skills enough to hesitate making such a claim - - but it sounds like you're insinuating that even if Eve DID sin first, if Adam had been standing next to her saying nothing the whole time, HE would have been guilty of the sin, and she would have been innocent?!?!? Please tell me I'm not hearing you correctly, because the whole idea you seem to be presenting here seems ludicrous to me.
 
TonyC said:
The punishment of the false accusers by the king can not be equated to God punishing a sinner. It was the KING - - not God - - that had the false accusers and their families thrown into the lion's den.
No this was another example that the consequence for sin falls to more than just the person.

This is the principle at work when Adam's sin resulted in the Earth being cursed by God.

This is why God punishes the children to the third and fourth generation of those that hate Him.

This is why all of Achan's household was stoned, they suffered as a consequence of his sin. They did not commit the sin, and Achan paid the penalty, but sin is pervasive and they were punished as well by Joshua.

This is why the children of Israel suffered such great disaster as told in Jeremiah 16.

I want you to separate this from paying the ultimate price of sin, and that is not only death, but being eternally separated from God. John calls this eternal existence in Hell as the second death, the death of the soul.
TonyC said:
I entered into this discussion to comment on the plight of an infant who dies...I estimate that you esteem an infant to be in a state of sin, condemned to hell. What mechanism do you know of that will remedy the state of such an infant?
I do not personally ascribe such an ironclad fate to every infant. You see in order to be judged under the Law, you have to have knowledge of the Law. An infant does not. Therefore, they are not judged under the Law. This is what Paul teaches. I am not making up doctrine, just trying to apply it. It is true that each of us will be judged for what we have done. But as a precondition for our existence, we are born into sin as a consequence of the original sin introduced by Adam. So when those infants are judged, God will judge the heart. He alone can do that. It is my hope that all those children that died in infancy or childbirth will be saved.

I think as a concept, the idea of original sin describes the nature of man that you are bringing forth. We are not so far apart in our thinking, but limited by this medium in having a true discussion. And since we are by nature, sinful, it is not remarkable that all have sinned. Now we have a problem: how to rid ourselves of our sin. God provided for that.
TonyC said:
Suffering from someone's sin - - is not the same as being responsible for it, or having to give an answer for it. The infant child of an alcoholic father is not condemned for his father's alcoholism. Will the infant suffer? Most assuredly.
Agreed.
 
TonyC said:
Note that he says that death comes to all men because ALL sinned - - not because Adam sinned. Sin separates us from God, and until we have the capacity to sin, we are not separated. When we develop the capacity to sin, and then DO sin, that sin separates us from God. It is then that we require the blood of Christ to wash away that sin and restore us into a right relationship with God.
I agree with you in essence. But to be clear and theologically correct let me quote you what I have read on this passage on Romans 5:12, because the author of the Expositor's Bible Commentary brings out some very subtle nuances that support the concept that through Adam, all of us have sinned, because we were all in him. It's a little long, and I apologize for it, but my aim is to instruct and not argue.
The one man through whom sin entered the world is not immediately named (reserved till v. 14). The same procedure is followed with the other man to be considered: he is called a man before he is named (v. 15). Except for two nontheological references (Luke 3:38; Jude 14), every mention of Adam in the NT comes from the pen of Paul. In 1 Timothy 2:14 he makes the point that Adam, unlike Eve, was not deceived, but sinned deliberately. In 1 Corinthians 15, as in the Romans passage, he institutes a comparison between the first and the last Adam, but confines the treatment to the issue of death and resurrection, even though sin is dealt with somewhat incidentally (vv. 17, 56), whereas in Romans 5 both sin and death are named immediately and are woven into the texture of the argument throughout. In the earlier letter Paul makes the significant statement "For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive" (1Cor 15:22) in line with Romans 5:12. Paul has already referred to the inevitable connection between sin and death in the only previous mention of death in Romans (1:32) exclusive of the death of Christ (5:10). But here in v. 12 he pictures sin and death as entering the world through one man, with the result that death permeated the whole of mankind. It was the opening in the dike that led to the inundation, the poison that entered at one point and penetrated every unit of man's corporate life.

If Paul had stopped with the observation that death came to all men because all sinned, we would be left with the impression that all sinned and deserved death because they followed the example of Adam. But subsequent statements in the passage make it abundantly clear that the connection between Adam's sin and death and what has befallen the race is far closer than that. Paul can say that the many died because of "the trespass of the one man" (v. 15). Clearly the gist of his teaching is that just as mankind has become involved in sin and death through Adam, it has the remedy of righteousness and life only ill Christ.

What, then, is the precise relation of Adam in his fall to those who come after him? Paul does not say, unless he provides the information in the last clause of the verse. NIV uses the word "because," which is certainly the meaning of eph' ho in 2 Corinthians 5:4 and probably also in Philippians 3:12. The Vulgate rendering of the Greek is in quo which could be understood as meaning "in which" (i.e., death) or "in whom" (i.e., Adam). The former does not make sense and the latter is so far removed from the antecedent ("man") as to be dubious, though this was Augustine's conclusion.

Now if the correct translation is "because all sinned," why did not Paul go on and say specifically that all sinned in the first man? That he could have done so seems clear from v. 19: "For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Was it the sudden breaking off to follow another line of thought (vv. 13, 14) that prevented the full statement? Or was it his reluctance to gloss over human responsibility, which he had already established in terms of universal sin and guilt (3:23)? Experience demonstrates that despite the inheritance of a sinful nature from Adam, people are convicted of guilt for the sins resulting from it-the sins they themselves commit. Conscience is a factor in human life and the Holy Spirit does convict of sin (John 16:8). Perhaps, then, as some hold, while the emphasis on original sin is primary in the light of the passage as a whole, there is a hint that personal choice and personal sin are not entirely excluded (cf. "many trespasses" in v. 16).

That we could have sinned in Adam may seem strange and unnatural to the mind of Western man. Nevertheless, it is congenial to biblical teaching on the solidarity of mankind. When Adam sinned, the race sinned because the race was in him. To put it boldly, Adam was the race. What he did, his descendants, who were still in him, did also. This principle is utilized in Hebrews 7:9, 10, "One might even say that Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham, because when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the body of his ancestor."

If one is still troubled by the seeming injustice of being born with a sinful nature because of what the father of the race did and being held accountable for the sins that result from that disability, he should weigh carefully the significance of reconciliation as stated by Paul: "... that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them" (2Cor 5:19). The sins committed, that owe their original impetus to the sin of the first man, are not reckoned against those who have committed them provided they put their trust in Christ crucified and risen. God takes their sins and gives them his righteousness. Would we not agree that this is more than a fair exchange?
 
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TonyC said:
"who in one reading"... what? Not only does it sound like you're making stuff up, now - - and I really have come to repsect your debating skills enough to hesitate making such a claim - - but
Yes Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned deliberately. The command was given explicitly to Adam before Eve was ever on the Earth.

Now as to the "one reading" haven't you read where it says in Genesis
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, (Gen 3:6)
So I ask you, how long as Adam been by her side? Now do this. Read the entire passage again from 3:1 and read it imagining Adam standing there the entire time mute. In this way, his sin is amplified, and his excuse to God that the 'woman you gave me' caused him to sin is even more like our human nature to find the reason for our fault with anyone besides our self. Adam actually puts his sin back on God.
TonyC said:
I quoted Eve quoting God, so what's the difference? Are you submitting that Eve, in taking of the fruit, did not sin? ...it sounds like you're insinuating that even if Eve DID sin first, if Adam had been standing next to her saying nothing the whole time, HE would have been guilty of the sin, and she would have been innocent?!?!? Please tell me I'm not hearing you correctly, because the whole idea you seem to be presenting here seems ludicrous to me.
I am not saying that Eve did not sin, but the command was explicitly given to Adam. Paul also says that sin was introduced through Adam, so while he ate second, and what Eve did was wrong, as a theological point, it was Adam that introduced the sin, not Eve. Again, I'm just taking the Bible as it is presented. I am not ordained, but I have been schooled. If I am at fault, show me and we will both be sharpened. Because I've been wrong before, and I'll be there again.

The essence of sin though is pervasive. We inherited it because we are all part of Adam, and we share in that sin. We will be judged for what we do. And we cannot earn our way into heaven. We are commanded to perfect, but because of that sin nature, no one born of Adam can succeed.
 
As to babies:

I said before that babies are like us in one way in that they are selfish. That imputes motive to them. A better way of saying it according to my pastor, would be to say that babies are self-oriented rather than being God-oriented. This would be the consequence for the original sin of Adam. At Adam's creation it could very well be said that this was not his condition, and that the natural condition of all of us is to not to be self-oriented. But because of the state whereby we are separated from God, our nature is sinful. This is different than saying someone has done something wrong, but merely a statement of being apart from God. That is why someone can be "good" as we would see them and still not be saved if they do nothing to reconcile themselves to God.

Again, having a sinful nature does not necessarily doom every newborn child that dies to Hell. Their sinfulness as being separate from God, as evidenced by the natural self-oriented nature of a baby, is what has to be dealt with. Being a sinner does not mean there is sin. However, as a rule for us, all have sinned.
 
Super 80 said:
I agree with you in essence. But to be clear and theologically correct let me quote you what I have read on this passage on Romans 5:12, because the author of the Expositor's Bible Commentary brings out some very subtle nuances that support the concept that through Adam, all of us have sinned, because we were all in him. It's a little long, and I apologize for it, but my aim is to instruct and not argue.
Experience demonstrates that despite the inheritance of a sinful nature from Adam, people are convicted of guilt for the sins resulting from it-the sins they themselves commit.
On this we can agree. The first sin committed on earth brought forth a curse that affects us to this day. We are only guilty, though, of those sins which we ourselves commit.

Since an infant is incapable of committing any sin, I think it is safe to conclude that an infant is in no way separated from GOd.
 
Super 80 said:
As to babies:

Again, having a sinful nature does not necessarily doom every newborn child that dies to Hell. Their sinfulness as being separate from God, as evidenced by the natural self-oriented nature of a baby, is what has to be dealt with. Being a sinner does not mean there is sin.
What mechanism has God given us to redeem the soul of a newborn child that is doomed to hell? (You said "not necessarily ... every" - - by implication, then, some are doomed.)
 
Super 80 said:
Yes Eve was deceived, but Adam sinned deliberately. The command was given explicitly to Adam before Eve was ever on the Earth.

Now as to the "one reading" haven't you read where it says in Genesis ... So I ask you, how long as Adam been by her side? Now do this. Read the entire passage again from 3:1 and read it imagining Adam standing there the entire time mute. In this way, his sin is amplified, and his excuse to God that the 'woman you gave me' caused him to sin is even more like our human nature to find the reason for our fault with anyone besides our self. Adam actually puts his sin back on God.
OK, well at least I understand what scenario you were trying to describe. I can't imagine it that way, though. On the contrary. If Adam stood beside Eve during the entire conversation she had with the serpent, then he also can claim the alibi of deceit. As it appears, though, he was not present during that conversation. The serpent is not cursed for deceiving the man, but the woman. And the man is punished for disobedience, not for being decieved.

Super 80 said:
I am not saying that Eve did not sin, but the command was explicitly given to Adam.
Eve apparently undersood the command to apply to them both, as she quoted the command to the serpent. I see no support for the idea that the command was not given to Eve, and that it did not therefore bind her.
 

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