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Bible Defense

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Typhoon1244 said:
I see reason has marched backward several steps in my absence. Ah well...such is life.

I'll be off-line for a couple weeks while we make the move to east Tennessee. I'll probably be back just in time for you guys to change the name to BibleInfo.com.

Peace, happiness, and wisdom to all, in whatever form you find it! :)

ROFLMAO dam that's funny bibleinfo.com

good luck with the move typh, gonna make aileron come help clean? lol
 
Jesus ... you guys still trying validate this goofy superstition?

Look ... I showed you in the last thread where numerous learned biblical scholars have pointed out the holes in this book of myths. It's mythology ... get over it. It's silly, and there can be no 'defense' of it. If you get a spiritual high from all the endorphins flooding your system during your Pagan rites and you wanna call it the Holy Spirit or the Hungry Ghost or whatever ... have at it. More power to ya brother. But don't try to justify this nonsense with your biased pseudo-scientific BS theories.

It's primitive superstition ... get over it already.

:rolleyes:

Minhberg
 
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Get over it.

Good advice.

There are a lot of so-called "learned" people who find all kinds of reason to not trust the simple statement made in 2Tim 3:16-17.

The promblem lies, however, in just that. They're people. All they see, like others, is a "myth". It's funny how the Bible itself speaks to that as a fact, in that many, many humans will not believe, and be lost.

No one is forced to choose, but you should choose wisely. Ask yourself if you can risk being wrong about this.

It isn't a closed mind that is required, but instead, an open heart.
 
Ohhhh Jeeeeeeezus ...

:rolleyes:
 
I just reread my earlier post, and though I'm not sure exactly why I had such a bug up my @ss ... it sure sounds like I had one up there.

:(

So ... nevermiiiiiind. I'm just having a bad day.

Minh
 
Snakum said:
I just reread my earlier post, and though I'm not sure exactly why I had such a bug up my @ss ... it sure sounds like I had one up there.

:(

So ... nevermiiiiiind. I'm just having a bad day.

Minh

Hey Minh,

Maybe you Karma ran over your Dogma....

Cheers,
SK:cool:
 
Arguing with fundamentalists is pointless and exhasting. They are usually afraid to really think about anything. Don't get me starated, for instance, about their views on evolution.
 
Herman Bloom said:
They are usually afraid to really think about anything. Don't get me starated, for instance, about their views on evolution.
Please tell me one fact or bit of evidence that shows one species "evolved" into another by a slow and gradual process of mutation and natural selection.

Really, I'm not afraid to show you that the Genesis account can be reconciled within normal translational boundaries to be in perfect agreement with the best science has to offer. And seeing how man's study of Creation has been wrong much more and longer than it has been right, it is all the more extraordinary that the Bible gets it right and has for 3500 years.
 
OH STOP IT ALREADY. It's quite obvious that we won't agree about evolution. So, that horse has been beaten, ground up, and consumed by my neighbor's dog. Let it go...
 
I'm sorry, your horse is another icon of evolution that is not factual. If you want to rely on hundred year old drawings for your proof, then I'm going to have to remind you of artistic license and having an agenda as motive for lying. Unfortunately, I believed in what was peddled until I looked under the surface only to find what has been presented as Science is nothing more than their own belief structure supported by lies. I don't like being lied to.
 
Bible is right about creation? Prove it. You believe it's correct, that does not make it correct.

Ask yourself if you can risk being wrong about this.

Why don't you ask yourself if you can be wrong about this. Sure the standard response from fanatics is something along these lines.

"If you're right, then I've lost nothing, if I'm right, then you've lost everything."

Here's my response.

If the Muslims are right, then you've lost everything too.

Fanatics wouldn't bother me if they could admit that it is all faith and not fact. Stop forcing your beliefs on others.

But like someone else said, arguing with these people is pointless, they're too scared to think that they might possibly not be right.
 
Ralgha said:
Stop forcing your beliefs on others.
This is a common refrain from the humanist culture we live in. In the murky world of gray, it is a crime to see things in black and white, yet that is what Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'

I do not impose my beliefs on you. I can show you how the Genesis account aligns with science. Before I post all of thirty pages on it as a synopsis, perhaps you'd like to go over it little by little. What point do you contend in Genesis is incorrect?
 
I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Once again, that is something that you believe he said. Whether he actually said that or not has not been proven. There probably was a man named Jesus at that time, was he the son of God? I don't know. You don't either. You believe he was/is.

I don't really contend that any specific points in Genesis are incorrect. Someone can shape anything to fit with anything else in whatever way they want to.

I would like to know one thing though. If humans were created on the sixth day of existance, then how have they been around for a few million years while earth has been around for a few billion?
 
scientists estimate the earth has been here billions of years. they also said an ice age was coming in the 70's and now global warming is here.

lets see science is also an explanation for the unknown (albeit a very plausible one), however it is still unknown. how is it that a scientific LAW (which must be true) can explain away evolution (2nd law of thermodynamics - entropy)? i dunno, i just fly a cheap 19 seat bus.

religious fundamentalists are no different than any kook (ie greenpeacers, mother earth worshippers, etc), super 80/timebuilder/etc are just expressing their opinion and beliefs. you are freely reading them and can excercise your mouse to not read them. get over it.
 
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Timebuilder said:
No one is forced to choose, but you should choose wisely. Ask yourself if you can risk being wrong about this.
The question is...can YOU???

I should think Deity, by whatever name you refer to it, would be supremely disappointed in your decision to not exercise the one true gift bestowed upon humanity--free will--as he/she/it intended, but instead chose to let some book dictate your life choices for you. The bible isn't the word of God, it's the word of men. And who knows what they were smoking at the time! (Come on, the immaculate conception? You honestly believe that marital infidelity or even rape didn't occur in Jesus' time?)

Stories of a vengeful God simply ring hollow for me; if he/she/it is nothing but light, love, peace, hate is simply not part of the equation. Hate is a man-made invention, meant only to give us a point of reference against love. How can we know love if we've never known hate? How can we know "tall" if we've never known "short"?

My concept of life's purpose is to experience all that "God" is not--pain, suffering, despair, torment, etc--so that when we are restored to "God", the experience will have significance. All you bible thumpers are simply tempering that experience for yourselves by letting others make your choices for you and following the narrowest of paths--and not experiencing all that life has to offer. I feel sorry for you, I really do.
 
Ralgha said:
Bible is right about creation? Prove it. You believe it's correct, that does not make it correct.

The empirical evidence obtained by science, history, and personal experiences give a very rational argument in favor of the Bible's account that it is in fact the inspired Word of God. I absolutely agree that whatever you believe does not make it correct simply because you believe it. So with that said, I have yet to see any rational claims that de-bunk the Christian God. The "palatable" ideas that float around about the Bible being a conglomeration of fairy-tales seem much more along the lines of simply wanting to believe something for the reason of actually believing it than what many, including you, have accused some Christians of doing.

Why don't you ask yourself if you can be wrong about this.

uhhhh......I think most people realize that they could be wrong about anything they believe when they are required to exercise faith in place of a confirmed 100% realization based on an accurately tested hypothesis. I hope you also ask yourself if you could be wrong about whatever it is you believe.

Here's my response.

If the Muslims are right, then you've lost everything too.

You are correct. However, based on the severe flaws that exists in Muslim apologetics it is a lot more likely if a monotheistic god does in fact exist, that the Biblical account is the most reliable one. So if you are going to play the "choose a god (or religion) to be safe game", you are in better standing picking the one that has demonstrated the most accuracy and authority (i.e.-the God of the Bible).

Fanatics wouldn't bother me if they could admit that it is all faith and not fact. Stop forcing your beliefs on others. But like someone else said, arguing with these people is pointless, they're too scared to think that they might possibly not be right.

I totally agree. (I just hope you’re not a fanatic:D )
 
I agree that the book of genesis is strikingly similar to the scientific explanation of creation/evolution, which fact ultimately reinforces my belief in a divine-inspired, science based theory.

What's more likely: that the book of genesis is a brief allegorical explanation of "scientific" creation, written by people who didn't have the scientific background to understand that story in any other way (in other words, a story "dumbed down" by God by way of explanation to these people)? Or that all the scientific evidence is WRONG and that the story of gensis is an absolute truth...literal to the word?

Occam's Razor: all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be true.

Just think for once in your life. It's really not all that frightening.
 
Hey, some people are excited about this. That's good. What you discuss today can cause an awkening tomorrow.

Let's try and boil down this bone of contention to a nice soup stock.

Some of you know about this point, so bear with me while I make it again for those who missed it earlier.

From everything I have seen by study and by pastoral lecture, there is one thing you will not find, and that is by design: proof.

From the viewpoint of the believer there is plenty of proof. From the viewpoint of the skeptic, there is little or none at all.

There are really only two possibilities in this discussion; either the Bible is what it says it is, the inspired word of God, or it isn't. Plain and simple, it can be reduced to that singular point. Either Men made the thing up out of whole cloth, or God used Men as the tools to create the precise ideas that He wanted us to have, according to 2Tim 3:16-17.

If it is right, we were created not only by "an" intelligent designer, but "the" intelligent designer.

If it is right, humans were unable to follow God's law, as was given to us as a race, and specifically, to the Jews.

If it is right, we are in need of salvation, and it is provided for us.

If it is right, the best is yet to come for the believer, and evil will have it's head handed to it.



Why don't you ask yourself if you can be wrong about this.

Not only have I considered this, I have also been wrong about this. I researched the popular ecumenicalism now known as "New Age" thinking for over ten years, and hosted a special program in my spare time for seven of those years. I looked at all of the various ideas, and saw that some were truly brilliant constructs. While I found that some had very good points in terms of health and mental clarity, most did not address the Big Question of "why are we here?"

Another 14 years passed, and I discovered a Bible study called The King is Coming. Over the course of many months, this program brought the Bible to life as the ways and means of God were explained through scripture. Outside of a couple of Psalms, #23 and #100 from Sunday School, I had never delved into what the Bible actually had inside its covers.

I found that in order for this to make sense, in order for it to touch you in a way that was meaningful, you had to open your heart and accept this as a gift, and that trying to take it all apart is something best left to scholars of ancient languages.

There are a lot of "rational" arguments against the content of the Bible, to be sure. That isn't surprising, because one of the intents that I surmise for the Bible is to make the supernatural nature of God into a somewhat "conceivable" idea, based on a record of interaction, instruction, and prophecy. Now if this was simply a job left to Men, we would be smart to have doubts. However, God covered that problem and led each writer by His inspiration, and guiding each council by His oversight. Doubts are a natural thing, and even a human who had known Christ personally had doubts about Him. Thomas had to be shown those same wounds He received on the cross, and then he believed. Christ then said to him: "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

This experience by Thomas, and several other pieces of scripture, suggest strongly that faith is the requirement for us in this time. When Christ walked among His disciples, He did many things that showed by proof that He was who He said He was. As a child, He astounded the Jewish leaders with His knowlege of the sacred writings, and aptly debated the leaders on many subjects. How? He had spoken those words and written those tablets in His pre-incarnate form as God the Son, the Word.

That was the time of seeing and touching for "proof". Now is the time of opening your heart with "faith".

The first scientist I ever knew was a minister, who worked as a chemist for Sun Company, the oil refiner. He told me that the more he learned in science, the more awed he was by God.

Faith begins where trusting ourselves as the ultimate knowlege ends.
 
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Ralgha said:
If humans were created on the sixth day of existance, then how have they been around for a few million years while earth has been around for a few billion?
The answer to your question, which is a good one, revolves around how you interpret the word day in the Bible from the Hebrew word yom. There are 74 different words in the English translation that are discerned from the Hebrew yom. yom is pretty much like our present day usage of day. yom can mean the hours of daylight; a 24 hour period; an intermittent length of time like present day; and an age, such as the day of the dinosaur. yom is also translated one time as eternity. Likewise, morning and evening have multiple meanings, one being beginning and ending.

One possible translation is a single day. It by no means is the only possible translation. An equally valid translation for yom is age or even epoch of time. Thus the first epoch of time can span 8 billion years. These days do not even have to be equal in length. Thus the sixth day could have started 50,000 years ago when we find the first modern man species, homo sapiens. The difference between the start of man, and Adam, could be hidden in plain sight within the Genesis account, in that God made man, and then created the soul. There can be quite an allowance of time between the two.

We must interpret an ancient foreign language correctly, not an easy task, especially with Hebrew. For instance this is Genesis 1:1 in Beowulf’s English: “On anginne gesceop God heofenan and eoroan.” This is our language from just a thousand years ago. Or read an original version of our Declaration of Independence and see how difficult it is to read modern post-Renaissance English. Hopefully, you'll get the idea how difficult it is to discern original intent from another language from a different culture 3500 years ago and not get locked into saying day means just 24 hours.

For those Christians that hold onto a strict Ussher chronology, I ask you to consider this aspect of your theology. Certainly God could create everything in 144 hours, but does this align with what we know God says He is? The young Earth creationists place the age between five and ten thousand years, while science has a plethora of evidence between the various dating methods of an Earth much older. To reconcile the disparity the young Earth creationists maintain God created the world with the appearance of age. Unfortunately, this goes against a systematic theology of God as being truthful and patient. To say God created the appearance of age means He created a lie and in doing so was not patient.

I like to say that God so loved the world that He took 14 billion years to lead us to Christ. God is patient. God is truth. And to Him a thousand years is like a day. So to look at the majesty of His creation spread across a universe 12 billion years in diameter shows how much He loves you and me.
 
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