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Bible Defense

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Dash8 said:
oh for the love of....
that stupid watch argument????? haven't seen that in a long time....
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you with my choice of technological marvels.

Lemme see here - - let's change that to "microwave oven." Delete all references to watch and timepiece, replace them with Microwave oven.

Change Timex to Sanyo, Seiko to General Electric, and Breitling to Amana.

That should work - - point remains the same.
 
TonyC said:
Sorry, didn't mean to offend you with my choice of technological marvels.

Lemme see here - - let's change that to "microwave oven." Delete all references to watch and timepiece, replace them with Microwave oven.

Change Timex to Sanyo, Seiko to General Electric, and Breitling to Amana.

That should work - - point remains the same.

no offense tony,
just haven't seen the watch analogy to support religion in a really LONG time, had forgotten all about it
 
Snakum said:
Jesus ... you guys still trying validate this goofy superstition?

Look ... I showed you in the last thread where numerous learned biblical scholars have pointed out the holes in this book of myths. It's mythology ... get over it. It's silly, and there can be no 'defense' of it. If you get a spiritual high from all the endorphins flooding your system during your Pagan rites and you wanna call it the Holy Spirit or the Hungry Ghost or whatever ... have at it. More power to ya brother. But don't try to justify this nonsense with your biased pseudo-scientific BS theories.

It's primitive superstition ... get over it already.

:rolleyes:

Minhberg

This is simply not true. While neither side can be proven or disproven empirically, there is a substantial body of evidence that supports the validity of the Bible and Christ's deity. If you are actually interested in Truth and not just anti-Christian rhetoric, I urge you to do some reading.

I recommend Lee Strobel's The Case for Christ. This is a highly readable book that is representative of many in which intelligent and logical people research the evidence to determine whether Christianity is a myth or not. Frankly, even I, as a Believer, was surprised at how much supporting evidence there is to support the Bible. It takes as least as much faith to simply write it off as a myth as it does to believe it.

And logically, there is no benefit to disbelief. If I believe and in the end it is a myth, then I will have lived a good life and left the world a better place through love and and support for my fellow man. If I don't believe and Jesus is revealed to be who He said He was in the end, then the stakes are much higher. I will have lost my soul for eternity. Pythagoras, of right-triangle fame, was the first to note the above logic.

I'd also recommend
answers-in-genesis.org and the Institute for Creation Research as good sources to answer the billions of years question. I believe in the seven literal days of Genesis. The original Hebrew word for day denotes a 24 hour period.
 
blueridge71 said:
I believe in the seven literal days of Genesis. The original Hebrew word for day denotes a 24 hour period.
While I can show you modern translations of yom in several different versions from the King James to more modern versions that equate day with more than a 24 hour day, there is nothing preventing you from holding this belief.

In a sense, I believe in the seven literal days of Genesis too. My point on Genesis is just to show the latitude for interpretation, not to dictate which definition you choose for yourself.

Have a good one brother.
 
Next time you go flying or go out side, look around absorb what you are seeing, Can this all happen by chance?, I don"t think so!!
That puts God as the one in charge, and responsible for all creation.
 
stingray said:
Next time you go flying or go out side, look around absorb what you are seeing, Can this all happen by chance?, I don"t think so!!
That puts God as the one in charge, and responsible for all creation.

Then who created God?
 
stingray said:
Next time you go flying or go out side, look around absorb what you are seeing, Can this all happen by chance?, I don"t think so!!
That puts God as the one in charge, and responsible for all creation.

just because that's what you see, doesn't mean everyone else does, or should

we're the sum of our experiences and our aspirations, thats all
 
Good grief people, it's pointless to argue with fanatics. Just let them sit happy in their beliefs and forget about it.
 
Then who created God?
I did ... and you still owe me for it.

Rev. Thich Minh Thong
"Gods-R-Us"
When you need a God quickly ...
think "Gods-R-Us". All Gods, all
the time. It's all we do ...
at "Gods-R-Us".
 
kevdog said:
Then who created God?
What created the Creator? What was there before him or was he created? This question has often been asked. Put another way it could be restated as:

If something exists now, then either something must be eternal,
or something not eternal must have risen from nothing.


Or another way of saying it is, “Why is there something instead of nothing?” We can boil this down to four possible scenarios.

1. The universe is an illusion.

I’ve been told that represents about half of the world’s religions because it encompasses the Eastern world’s religions. I have some experience with Shintoism, and Taoism, and am familiar with Hinduism and Confucianism, and while they do not have absolutes, this statement may be a stretch. The corollary is interesting though: Truth is relative. If it is true that truth is relative then it is truly relative, and relative to relative is meaningless. Another definition game is to say that, “Nothing is true”—if that statement is true, then you have a truth, and nothing becomes something.

“Cogito ergo sum,” (I know therefore I am) contradicts the philosophy that everything is an illusion. Furthermore, no one acts like this in his life, and you won’t get anyone who espouses such a philosophy to step out in front of a moving bus.

2. The universe has always existed.

The trouble with this is that what has a beginning or an ending cannot have always existed. Science used to hold onto this position until astronomers came up with the Big Bang. Now we have more evidence for a hot start, and have even measured the background radiation at 4 degrees Kelvin as predicted for a 14 billion year-old universe, as the second law of thermodynamics states that useful energy will always be decreasing. This is also known as Einstein’s “heat death of the universe.” Eventually, all the energy will be used up and in billions of more years, the universe will be a dark and quiet place. Kind of makes worrying about leaving a legacy behind pointless, when in the end there’s nothing to be here.

A view that encompassed the age old cyclical nature of time as in the seasons was that the universe was like a bungee cord, and that this was just a cycle in a series of Big Bangs; speculation fueled no doubt by the discovery of black holes. Unfortunately, there is not enough light and dark matter in the universe to reverse the trend of expansion. In fact, the telescope that bears his name has validated Dr. Hubble’s equation; it was the reason it was launched after all. The Hubble constant has shown that our universe is ever expanding. And while the expansion is constantly slowing in outward velocity; it will always be expanding. Besides, a bouncing universe would violate the law of entropy.

3. The universe arose from nothing.

Actually, this is not as implausible as it first sounds. The Big Bang theory fit this fairly well to the atheists’ creed, and to their thinking did away with the need for a creator. Unfortunately, it violates the first law of thermodynamics, which simply stated is that the sum of matter and energy is constant. From what energy did matter come into being? (And no, the Jedi life force doesn’t count.) To the scientist who refuses to consider a cause outside the natural, they had to eliminate an outside energy that could be converted into mass. To get around this, they reasoned that there was the primordial mass.

But this raised its own question of cause and effect. Even though the primordial mass is so small because all the space between the particles has been eliminated, and Stephen Hawking, who is not a Christian, says that this mass can fit not on the head of a pin, but on its point; what was it that told this primordial mass that it was pregnant with a universe that contained life? How could mass be compressed and not be stable? (Remember that we have already ruled out a bungee cord universe.) So what would give impetus for an explosion that would punctuate equilibrium? Science has no explanation, and although they can theoretically go back to ten to minus 43rd second after the Big Bang, they cannot give an answer that would not contradict their own science. We can conclude that this statement is also false. The universe came from something. Now how did the something get there?

4. The universe was brought into existence by something eternal.

So these are the facts: (1) The universe is real, it is not an illusion. (2) The universe is not eternal. It has a beginning and an end. It is not constantly rejuvenating itself. (3) The universe obeys the laws of nature. It could not have come into existence by itself.

We are left with this proposition (4) as the only viable solution. Something outside the universe had to create the primordial mass. And now we know from Einstein how this works, E=mc2. By the power of God’s Word, He brought that point into being, and the universe unfolded as one spreads out a tent (Isaiah 40:22). And that pregnant point gave birth to a universe under God’s laws and designs, balanced between positive and negative charges and the strong and weak atomic forces that allows for life itself to exist.

In the three dimensional world of space, with a linear time moving constantly forward, every thing, or effect, has a cause. They fall under the rules and laws of physics and chemistry. Effects are finite, they can be measured. The Infinite, being outside our three dimensions of space, has no need for a cause. It does not have to obey the laws of the three-dimensional. It transcends the natural bounds of our space and time.

The natural laws form the bounds of our existence. We can think of a point in space as a location, with no length, width or height. Add another point, and now you can describe a line, having just one dimension: length. Place a third point outside that line, and now you describe a plane of two dimensions: length and width. Now put a line perpendicular to that plane and you have space: three dimensions of length, width and height. But how do you put a plane to a cube? We can’t think beyond our natural world how a fourth physical dimension might come to be.

We discussed before that the bounds of our world would have no bearing the infinite. This is because the infinite God would operate in dimensions beyond our three. Since this is so hard to envision, it is easier to see how a three dimensional being would be viewed by a two dimensional world described by A. Arnold in his 1884 story, Flatland. This story is analogous to how incomprehensible we find the person of God to be. The story of A Square (like a drawing on a sheet of paper) being visited in a closed room by A Sphere is humorous as he tries to understand what we already know: A Sphere’s true form. Moving through the plane of A Square’s existence he sees from his one eye on his perimeter that A Sphere starts as a point and grows into a circle and then shrinks back to a point. A Sphere and A Square have a conversation as A Sphere hovers above. He says that for A Square to be able to see him he’d have to an eye on his side; that is his inside in order to see up. “Preposterous!” says A Square, “an eye on my inside!”

While we think it comical that the concept of the vertical was incomprehensible to A Square, to extrapolate a fourth dimension of space to our world is just as hard for us to see. That we cannot does not disprove its existence. Stephen Hawking had to extrapolate to ten dimensions to reconcile gravity to quantum mechanics. That does not prove there are ten, but it does show it’s possible. If there is a fourth (or more) dimension(s) available to God, He could be as close to us as we can get to the surface of the flatlanders world, and we would be as ignorant of His presence as they would be to ours. Examples that can be termed space folding, and inter-dimensional travel are found in the Bible. Being able to think outside the box of our assumptions of the natural three dimensions can offer a possibility to accept that there is knowledge that we do not yet possess.

And why not consider a two or three-dimensional world of time? It is as if we are trapped in line land as far as time is concerned, always being propelled on forever forward with only a rearward view and the ever-present present. If the infinite is timeless, could it be that it is not bounded by our limited time frame? If time were like space, all of our time line, and all possibilities of our time lines made possible by free will could look like a fan coral in two dimensions, with the infinite hovering over all of it, omnipotent, in a third, vertical dimension of time. Such a conception draws in analogous fashion the ability to prophesize.

Science tells us that space and time are interrelated. Genesis 1:1 confirms that. Time, space and matter were created in an instant and along with them, all the laws that bring order to our natural finite world.

The Infinite has no need for a cause. It simply is. The beauty of God’s name, Yahweh: I am who I am, can be appreciated in this manner. The ancient Hebrew had only two verb tenses: a past perfect, and a future perfect. Not a very good language for technical discussions, but an excellent language for storytelling with words that draw up a snorting horse as an illustration of how anger is expressed. When God said His name to Moses, He literally said, “As I always have been so I always will be.” God is an eternal unchanging God existing outside of our bounds of space and time, who by the power of His Word brings mass into being. He transcends the natural finite world and time: truly an infinite God.

God: the something that is greater than everything.
 
kevdog said:
Then who created God?

The God of the Bible is in the context of an infinite. Infinites do not have beginning and ends. They have no causes--they are uncaused and thus have no thing above them that would be able to "create them". The atheists and agnostics used to claim that the universe was infinite and therefore needed no cause. They would sometimes use that argument against the possibility of God. But modern science has proven our universe is indeed finite. However modern science has not been able to disprove the possibility of an infinite creator being the cause of a finite universe, in fact it supports that possibility.
 
How many times must I say it...belief in evolution does not preclude the belief in a creator/designer. As I've said several times before, I believe that evolution is the most elegant proof of the existence of God.

This is so typical of Fundamentalists...just can't get it through their heads that an inteligent person could reconcile science AND God. Just too threatening to their fragile "belief" system.

Think a little tony c. Please. That watch analogy is literaly the most idiotic thing I've ever read. Last time I checked Tony, no watches were growing out there in the wild.

Is it just me, guys? Is this guy for real?
 
General Revelation

"The heavens declare the glory of God, The skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech. night after night they display knowledge."

--Psalm 19 verses 1-2.

It is improtant to remember WHO is in charge of creation, not so much HOW it was accomplished.

"I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made." Psalm 139, verse 14.

For me it is hard to think about how wonderfully complex and special life is, and not see God involved in that.

Think about all the functions of the human body, and how they all work together. The way our eyes are set back in our skull, combined with the bridge of the nose sticking out provides a natural protection against damaging our eyes.

Or just the fact that we are able to see, feel, hear, smell and taste the things around us is really quite amazing. Somehow this is all tied together with a brain and circulatory system. Our bones, nerves, feet, and everything else make for quite a fantastic creation. When you think of the billions of cells that make up a human body it is hard not to see the hand of God at work there.

Yet the human is just one part of creation. Think of the entire animal kingdom, and how much variety there is. Look at the earth around you and see the beautiful forests, lakes, and oceans etc. Somehow there is the perfect balance to sustain an abundence of life.

I'll never know for sure if it is a young earth or old earth, and whether it was 7 solar days or 7 figurative days (I tend to believe the former), but I can't help but see the glory of God in His creation.


:) N.L.
 
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Yes, there are differences within Christianity on theology. We are not perfect or omniscience. Between the various schools of theology, types of doctrines, styles of worship, or versions of the Bible, there is a place for everyone to find Jesus.

  • Evolution/Creation or a blend: God does not say how He created other than by the speaking and making. There is no evidence for a gradual change of species to species though.

    Young/Old Earth: the word day has a much difference in the Hebrew as it does in our present day English. However we do have evidence for an old Earth.

    Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib or Amillennial, sometimes the same Bible passage is used to support conflicting studies of eschatology.
However, one thing unites Christians and that is Christ. So no matter how we got here or what the future holds, each of us knows this one truth, that Jesus is the Way and the Light and the only means of Salvation. We are here to proclaim the Good News.

I invite those with a Bible difficulty to ask a question.
 
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I invite those with a Bible difficulty to ask a question.
Happy to oblige ... as always. You know you love me 80 :D

What makes your particular book of mythology true and the Muslim book of mythology untrue?

Rev. Minh
 
Snakum said:
What makes your particular book of mythology true and the Muslim book of mythology untrue? Rev. Minh
Well actually Minh, God loved you and me before we loved God, so in that respect, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, I can reflect that love to you just as you are.

The Bible records a lot of history, and while some is only found in the Bible, much of what it records has been confirmed. The events it relates are real, and deal with real people that can be independently verified.

The essential difference between Islam and Christianity is the same as any other world religion and Christianity. The former all describe what you must do to attain heaven/nirvana/eternal bliss. Only Christianity says God has done it for you.

Salvation in Islam, like other world religions is based solely on works. In Islam, however, one is never sure of their ultimate salvation, and a life of works according to their books (there are three that apply) can be undone by other's works after one's death!

With Christianity, salvation is a gift from God, based on faith. All you have to do is believe that Jesus is Lord, and you will be saved by God. Once you are in His hand, no one, and that would include even one's self, can remove you from God's Grace.
 
I sincerely thank you for the kind words ... however, you didn't answer my question.

How can you prove to an educated, logical-thinking man or woman that your book of myths is true, and the Muslim's book of myths is false?

Minhommad the Muslim Pork Producer
 
Snakum said:
How can you prove to an educated, logical-thinking man or woman that your book of myths is true, and the Muslim's book of myths is false?
First of all, the fact that historical account of the Israelites, Jesus and Muhammad are not generally in dispute means it is more than myth. If you wish to hold it as a preconceived notion of yours despite the facts, feel free do so. However, if you're unwilling to accept history that includes much of the Bible, then there is no logical basis for a rational discussion. Second of all, your sign-off shows a slight insensitivity to Muslims because they eschew all pork as well as products made with lard or shellfish.

Now proof means an inescapable conclusion. You have asked me to raise the Bible higher than most of the Laws of Science. What I can offer you is evidence. As I said, there are parts of the Bible that you will only get from the Bible. So you have set an impossible task for me to do. If you claim I cannot answer your question, it is because your question precludes an answer. If proof were available, then it would have been drilled into your head by now as well as everyone else's -and then where would faith find a place to occupy or free will go?

Between Islam and Christianity there are several points of disagreement. Both cannot be right because they make mutually exclusive claims. Only one can be right or none, but not both. Furthermore, there are several instances where Islam describes Christian faith inaccurately. From some books I have from Muslim converts to Christianity, I can show you the differences, but I cannot say the Qur'an, the Sunnah and Hadith are in the realm of myth at all since they don't describe mere fantasy.

To equate Judeo-Christianity (or even Islam) with mythology of paganism like the Greeks, Romans or Vikings or other cultures is a far cry from how those belief systems came about, how they are structured and the Bible.
 
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Snakum said:
What makes your particular book true?
God's stamp of authenticity upon His Son, Jesus Christ by the evidenced by their combined witness in miracles and prophecy shows the Bible as being true.
 
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Herman Bloom said:
Think a little tony c.
Are you implying I don't think? Or is that just a backhanded personal attack to distract from your lack or rebuttal evidence?
Herman Bloom said:
Please. That watch analogy is literaly the most idiotic thing I've ever read. Last time I checked Tony, no watches were growing out there in the wild.
Last time I checked, no species were evolving into other species, either. The point is, the commonality between the watches, or species, doesn't require that they evolved from a common ancestor. It is just as logical to conclude that the commonality indicates a common designer.
Herman Bloom said:
Is it just me, guys? Is this guy for real?
I guess that answers my question above - - it's a personal attack. I'm hurt.
 

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