CitationLover
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best picture of the war so far
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Some Iraqis flying the french flag
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048263567.iraq_us_military_war_reb109.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048263567.iraq_us_military_war_reb109.jpg
scubabri
Junior Mint
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Why is this a good thing? Why is everyone so harsh on countries that DON'T want war? France and Germany have in the last century been part of 2 wars, that cost thousands of lives. Both france and germany should be applauded for searching for a diplomatic solution to the situation in the Middle East instead of being eagar to rush off and spend billions of dollars to destroy, kill and mame.
War has become sanitized to the point that it's easy. Both france and germany are painfully aware of the horrors of war, something that we as americans have, for the most part, only viewed through tv and movies.
War causes more war, there are people dying right now, today, this very moment... let's not forget that.
War, fighting and death are bad, plain and simple. We as a world need to stand up against war, we as Americans need to be the example for the rest of the world. If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example.
IMOHO, agression should be the last recourse, after ALL diplomatic options have run out.
Ask yourself this question, why, even before a true diplomatic solution was looked for from the UN, where massive troops built up in that region? The popular believe is that France and Germany have alternative motives, but is just possible, that they truely seek a peaceful solution and it is US that has the alternative motives.
Ask yourself the question, why do we say F*CK france and Germany for wanting a peaceful solution to this situation?
my $.02
Brian
War has become sanitized to the point that it's easy. Both france and germany are painfully aware of the horrors of war, something that we as americans have, for the most part, only viewed through tv and movies.
War causes more war, there are people dying right now, today, this very moment... let's not forget that.
War, fighting and death are bad, plain and simple. We as a world need to stand up against war, we as Americans need to be the example for the rest of the world. If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example.
IMOHO, agression should be the last recourse, after ALL diplomatic options have run out.
Ask yourself this question, why, even before a true diplomatic solution was looked for from the UN, where massive troops built up in that region? The popular believe is that France and Germany have alternative motives, but is just possible, that they truely seek a peaceful solution and it is US that has the alternative motives.
Ask yourself the question, why do we say F*CK france and Germany for wanting a peaceful solution to this situation?
my $.02
Brian
"Both france and germany should be applauded for searching for a diplomatic solution to the situation in the Middle East instead of being eagar to rush off and spend billions of dollars to destroy, kill and mame. "
I notice that you do not mention ANY of the billions that SoD@mn Insane has spent to 'kill and mame' his own people among others. Not to mention the aid and comfort he gave to those who flew OUR airplanes into OUR buildings.
"War causes more war"
When's the last time you heard anything from Kaddafi??? Sometimes it seems a couple of Mk 82s on top of their heads seems to be the only thing these people understand. Which makes Hussein even more of a madman since he did'nt seem to learn this from the first Desert excursion.
"If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example."
Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock and awe" dropping on their heads??
"my $.02"
No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
Blacksheep and A-4s forever
I notice that you do not mention ANY of the billions that SoD@mn Insane has spent to 'kill and mame' his own people among others. Not to mention the aid and comfort he gave to those who flew OUR airplanes into OUR buildings.
"War causes more war"
When's the last time you heard anything from Kaddafi??? Sometimes it seems a couple of Mk 82s on top of their heads seems to be the only thing these people understand. Which makes Hussein even more of a madman since he did'nt seem to learn this from the first Desert excursion.
"If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example."
Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock and awe" dropping on their heads??
"my $.02"
No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
Blacksheep and A-4s forever
The french don't like war because they're always losing.
It's been published and posted everywhere, but I keep thinking of the now-oft-quoted statement, "not bringing the french to battle is much like not bringing an accordion when going hunting..." and it makes me smile every time it comes to mind.
What does one expect from a nation that still can't wear a beret properly, and that prides itself on socialism and eating snails?
It's been published and posted everywhere, but I keep thinking of the now-oft-quoted statement, "not bringing the french to battle is much like not bringing an accordion when going hunting..." and it makes me smile every time it comes to mind.
What does one expect from a nation that still can't wear a beret properly, and that prides itself on socialism and eating snails?
scubabri
Junior Mint
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
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- 550
Quite the contrary, you have a very valid point. I am not saying that war doesn't work. But lets look at it this way. The United States has the most fearsom, well funded, best trained military in the world. One of which who has a very publicized (did I spell that right?) track record. What good has it done? We still have dictators like Kaddafi, and North Korea, and Cuba, etc etc. We impose economic sanctions against these countries, really only effects the people, which in turn, makes them hate the US, instead of hating thier government. The people that flew those airplanes into our buildings hated us for a reason.
Saddam has been in power for how many years? In 1991, we took the opportunity to push him out of Kuwait, over the next 12 years, did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment.
We tend to wait until it is to late, and then take, what I consider to be the quick lazy way out, and that is military action.
We can set an example for the rest of the world. People will recognize that prosperity, is much better than being ruled by a dictator, when they realize this, they WILL stand up for themselves.
War is easier than peace, war is quicker than peace, peace will come, but the road to peace is a long, hard, journey. Is a forced democracy more right, than a forced dictatorship? Let people choose and earn their freedom, and they WILL work to keep it.
>Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of >what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon >do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock >and awe" dropping on their heads??
Is this how you want the US to be viewed? How long do you think it will be before other countries, countries that pose no threat to the US, such as France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Mexico start to view the US as a threat to their "way of life"?
>No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your >opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
No offense taken, we are just talking about our opinions, and this is how we learn and avoid conflict, I understand how you feel as I hope you understand how I feel
Brian
Saddam has been in power for how many years? In 1991, we took the opportunity to push him out of Kuwait, over the next 12 years, did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment.
We tend to wait until it is to late, and then take, what I consider to be the quick lazy way out, and that is military action.
We can set an example for the rest of the world. People will recognize that prosperity, is much better than being ruled by a dictator, when they realize this, they WILL stand up for themselves.
War is easier than peace, war is quicker than peace, peace will come, but the road to peace is a long, hard, journey. Is a forced democracy more right, than a forced dictatorship? Let people choose and earn their freedom, and they WILL work to keep it.
>Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of >what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon >do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock >and awe" dropping on their heads??
Is this how you want the US to be viewed? How long do you think it will be before other countries, countries that pose no threat to the US, such as France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Mexico start to view the US as a threat to their "way of life"?
>No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your >opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
No offense taken, we are just talking about our opinions, and this is how we learn and avoid conflict, I understand how you feel as I hope you understand how I feel
Brian
Brian,
Simply because the media hasn't been hilighting diplomacy efforts with Iraq or other nations, don't think it hasn't been an active effort. Diplomacy takes many forms, not all of which are polite, and not all of which are done with open arms.
Iraq has played a role in assisting, financing, directing, or supplying many of the terrorist acts that have taken place since the gulf war. Not all of those acts, or the nature of what has been behind them, has been made public. However, in many cases, even when terrorist acts have been carried out by individuals of other nationalities, the weapons and funding, and the impetus for the attack, can be traced back to Iraqi origin.
With respect to diplomacy, all Mr. Hussein needed to do, up until the hour of the attack, was produce the evidence that he had accomplished what he always maintained he had done: comply with the resoloution. He needed only show evidence that he had disarmed, and regardless of any political intent on this side of the pond, he would have taken the teeth out of any move to attack him.
However, the day before this action began, he demonstrated his humanitarian intent by firing on kurdish villiages. Iraq launched missles that they still claim don't exist...the power to stop all of this has always been in the Iraqi hands...all they have ever needed to do is tell the truth.
As for the subversive gutless spineless limpwristed two bit four flushing low down indiscriminate clodhopping french (lowercase "f"), they're like an accordion in more ways than one. When the pressure is on, historically they fold, let out an annoying wheezing sound as they go down, and need a lot of help to get back up. The french government made it quite clear that regardless of what the United States elected to do, they would not support it, and regardless of the Iraqi response or actions, the french would never support the US.
What should we expect more from a country that we've liberated twice, but still treats us like the agressor? Phoque the french.
Simply because the media hasn't been hilighting diplomacy efforts with Iraq or other nations, don't think it hasn't been an active effort. Diplomacy takes many forms, not all of which are polite, and not all of which are done with open arms.
Iraq has played a role in assisting, financing, directing, or supplying many of the terrorist acts that have taken place since the gulf war. Not all of those acts, or the nature of what has been behind them, has been made public. However, in many cases, even when terrorist acts have been carried out by individuals of other nationalities, the weapons and funding, and the impetus for the attack, can be traced back to Iraqi origin.
With respect to diplomacy, all Mr. Hussein needed to do, up until the hour of the attack, was produce the evidence that he had accomplished what he always maintained he had done: comply with the resoloution. He needed only show evidence that he had disarmed, and regardless of any political intent on this side of the pond, he would have taken the teeth out of any move to attack him.
However, the day before this action began, he demonstrated his humanitarian intent by firing on kurdish villiages. Iraq launched missles that they still claim don't exist...the power to stop all of this has always been in the Iraqi hands...all they have ever needed to do is tell the truth.
As for the subversive gutless spineless limpwristed two bit four flushing low down indiscriminate clodhopping french (lowercase "f"), they're like an accordion in more ways than one. When the pressure is on, historically they fold, let out an annoying wheezing sound as they go down, and need a lot of help to get back up. The french government made it quite clear that regardless of what the United States elected to do, they would not support it, and regardless of the Iraqi response or actions, the french would never support the US.
What should we expect more from a country that we've liberated twice, but still treats us like the agressor? Phoque the french.
scubabri
Junior Mint
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You ever been to France? Not Paris, France. I've been there. I've spent lots of time there. I found the French people to be very proud, very strong willed people, who have a few hundred years more experience with war than the US.
They are people, just like us, they wake up in the morning, they go to work, they get taxed, they get old die, just like us. The french are no less proud of their country and their way of life as we are with ours.
Did you ever think that maybe they were just tired? Tired of war, tired of their people dying, tired of destruction. Maybe they are just saying, enough!
France played a very important role in gaining our freedom from the British. We, as a country, may owe our very existance to the French, so be careful
I will grant that there is an oddity with economic ties to Iraq with france and germany which I am following with great interest. But on it's face, without more evidence to the contrary, I still believe that the french want a peaceful solution.
I watch the news and I see people cheering that we are going to war. I say to these people, that war should not be treated as entertainment, and that the notion of war should turn people stomaches.
Don't get me wrong.. I agree that Saddam is a bad man. I agree that he has done bad things, I agree that he probably shouldn't be in power. But are you ready to pay the long term price for taking him out in this way? All I am asking, is there a better way?
Brian
They are people, just like us, they wake up in the morning, they go to work, they get taxed, they get old die, just like us. The french are no less proud of their country and their way of life as we are with ours.
Did you ever think that maybe they were just tired? Tired of war, tired of their people dying, tired of destruction. Maybe they are just saying, enough!
France played a very important role in gaining our freedom from the British. We, as a country, may owe our very existance to the French, so be careful
I will grant that there is an oddity with economic ties to Iraq with france and germany which I am following with great interest. But on it's face, without more evidence to the contrary, I still believe that the french want a peaceful solution.
I watch the news and I see people cheering that we are going to war. I say to these people, that war should not be treated as entertainment, and that the notion of war should turn people stomaches.
Don't get me wrong.. I agree that Saddam is a bad man. I agree that he has done bad things, I agree that he probably shouldn't be in power. But are you ready to pay the long term price for taking him out in this way? All I am asking, is there a better way?
Brian
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
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scubabri,
name one instance where dimplomacy has stopped and fixed a problem other than through the use of arms? lets look at the un's (basically an organization for the 3rd world to complain against the western nations) track record:
korea - yea that has been solved
cyprus - both turkey and greece still want to invade
isreal - well they solved this one eh?
africa - hell even the 3rd world doesn't care about africa cause the un has done squat here
etc etc
of course there is a better way, but history says otherwise. yes france helped us in the revolutionary war and war of 1812 (napoleon kinda tied up the majority of british troops), however that was a long time ago.
name one instance where dimplomacy has stopped and fixed a problem other than through the use of arms? lets look at the un's (basically an organization for the 3rd world to complain against the western nations) track record:
korea - yea that has been solved
cyprus - both turkey and greece still want to invade
isreal - well they solved this one eh?
africa - hell even the 3rd world doesn't care about africa cause the un has done squat here
etc etc
of course there is a better way, but history says otherwise. yes france helped us in the revolutionary war and war of 1812 (napoleon kinda tied up the majority of british troops), however that was a long time ago.
bssthound
Enormous Member
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- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 541
I've been to southern France, NOT Paris and agree. They are wonderful people and were very friendly and receptive.
Of course they have hundreds of years more experience at war than we do because they've been around hundreds of years more than we have. Recent history certainly proves they're not nearly as capable at it as we are. As an analogy, my beloved but hapless New Orlean Saints have been around longer than the Baltimore Ravens and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They've not had nearly the success of those two teams, though.
Nobody wants war any less than those who are over there right now. Ask anyone with a clear understanding of Saddam and his grandiose visions and he'll tell you it's necessary. Should we wait until he finally has nuclear weapons and a means to set them off in Europe, Israel, and the United States? Should we let him ignore everything he's ever agreed to long enough for him to kill more people? How much blood on his hands is enough? How many deaths will satisfy him to the point where he'll say "okay, I'm ready to solve this diplomatically and be a peaceful, gentle, good neighbor?" Please, just give us an estimate of how many people he would kill and torture before he decides he's done enough. In the meantime, my brothers and sisters in arms, and possibly I, will be in the desert ensuring that he kills NO more innocent people.
Of course they have hundreds of years more experience at war than we do because they've been around hundreds of years more than we have. Recent history certainly proves they're not nearly as capable at it as we are. As an analogy, my beloved but hapless New Orlean Saints have been around longer than the Baltimore Ravens and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They've not had nearly the success of those two teams, though.
Nobody wants war any less than those who are over there right now. Ask anyone with a clear understanding of Saddam and his grandiose visions and he'll tell you it's necessary. Should we wait until he finally has nuclear weapons and a means to set them off in Europe, Israel, and the United States? Should we let him ignore everything he's ever agreed to long enough for him to kill more people? How much blood on his hands is enough? How many deaths will satisfy him to the point where he'll say "okay, I'm ready to solve this diplomatically and be a peaceful, gentle, good neighbor?" Please, just give us an estimate of how many people he would kill and torture before he decides he's done enough. In the meantime, my brothers and sisters in arms, and possibly I, will be in the desert ensuring that he kills NO more innocent people.
dsee8driver
Well-known member
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- 364
France experience..
About a year ago I had the pleasure of laying over in Chateareaux,(sp) France, about 3 hrs from Paris. We had a rent a car and traveled to Normandie, Omaha Beach, and some of the American cementeries. The trip was an amazing one. On the way back we decided to go through Paris and we stopped by the Eiffell tower. We had a beer and pizza at the restaurant at the top.
My overall experience with SOME of the French people is that they were rude to us. At restaurants they offered very little help in translation. As we left the Eiffel Tower and were walking to our car I almost had to subdue our FE because a group of 2 young kids about 17 or 18 walked by us, turned around and said "You stupid Americans, go home". I guess the FE's Texas, buckle and Hard ROck t shirt gave him away
. So, from my ONLY trip to France I did stay with a bitter taste. So, if I have a chance of traveling to Europe with my wife I can tell you it will not be France.
About a year ago I had the pleasure of laying over in Chateareaux,(sp) France, about 3 hrs from Paris. We had a rent a car and traveled to Normandie, Omaha Beach, and some of the American cementeries. The trip was an amazing one. On the way back we decided to go through Paris and we stopped by the Eiffell tower. We had a beer and pizza at the restaurant at the top.
My overall experience with SOME of the French people is that they were rude to us. At restaurants they offered very little help in translation. As we left the Eiffel Tower and were walking to our car I almost had to subdue our FE because a group of 2 young kids about 17 or 18 walked by us, turned around and said "You stupid Americans, go home". I guess the FE's Texas, buckle and Hard ROck t shirt gave him away
. So, from my ONLY trip to France I did stay with a bitter taste. So, if I have a chance of traveling to Europe with my wife I can tell you it will not be France.Diplomacy only works if the parties are willing to listen. Sadaam would never listen. He deserved to get his ass kicked.
There are hundreds of reasons to remove him from power. Sadly many of those reasons could be used in other countries where we may or may not step in. The French and especially the Russians were owed billions of dollars by the Iraq's after their war with Iran. They have selfish reasons for not wanting to remove Sadaam.
All the people with their "No Blood for Oil" signs can kiss my ass. What do you think Sadaam does? He gasses his own people so he can remain in power to get rich off of the countries oil.
I am all for peace. I am all for being compassionate, I am all for discussion and dialogue. However, if at the end of the day a regime like what has been in power in Iraq for 30 years won't listen it is time to drop the bombs.
LET'S ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are hundreds of reasons to remove him from power. Sadly many of those reasons could be used in other countries where we may or may not step in. The French and especially the Russians were owed billions of dollars by the Iraq's after their war with Iran. They have selfish reasons for not wanting to remove Sadaam.
All the people with their "No Blood for Oil" signs can kiss my ass. What do you think Sadaam does? He gasses his own people so he can remain in power to get rich off of the countries oil.
I am all for peace. I am all for being compassionate, I am all for discussion and dialogue. However, if at the end of the day a regime like what has been in power in Iraq for 30 years won't listen it is time to drop the bombs.
LET'S ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: "Stupid" Americans
Exactly. I have been to France many times and have had no problems. One rude person once. How many rude people do I come across in America on a daily basis? Lots. Anyway if I was there and someone said something to me that would be my exact reply. Let your wallet do the talking. Don't spend our dollars there or on any products and they will get the message. There are plenty of other great countries to visit in Europe.
bssthound said:
Exactly. I have been to France many times and have had no problems. One rude person once. How many rude people do I come across in America on a daily basis? Lots. Anyway if I was there and someone said something to me that would be my exact reply. Let your wallet do the talking. Don't spend our dollars there or on any products and they will get the message. There are plenty of other great countries to visit in Europe.
saabcaptain
Well-known member
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- Oct 14, 2002
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it has been 12 years of trying for peace. 12 years of dozens of UN resoultions. 12 years of promises from Iraq but in the words of UN weapons inspections "less than full cooperation and deception." how much longer do we wait? how much longer do the people of Iraq suffer? how much longer to we allow Iraq the chance to gain nuclear weapons at which time we no longer can do anything?
time is up. the liberation of iraq is here, and thank god... it will save more lives then it kills, it will create more joy then misery.
time is up. the liberation of iraq is here, and thank god... it will save more lives then it kills, it will create more joy then misery.
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
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canadflyau
Well-known member
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"The french are no less proud of their country and their way of life as we are with ours."
-Speak for yourself pal! I suggest finding a country to live in where you will be proud.
"did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment." (UN imposed no fly zone)
-After reading your post I realize that you are confused like many of the protesters. You state in your posts that the UN should have been given time to maintain the peace, but yet blame the US for doing nothing over the last 12 years. Your ignorence kills me... You are upset that we go and take care of the mess left by the UN but say the US didn't do enough for diplomacy.. Even you can't get it straight! You talk about the lack of US diplomacy then say we shouldn't be doing what we are independantly. By saying this even you admit the UN diplomacy is worthless if the US should have beeen doing addition diplomacy by itself on the side. Yet you feel more UN time for diplomacy is the answer NOW?WHAT THE HECK!! We are one of the countries that make up the UN, the vessel set up to deal with world events/crisis. Yet you feel that we should have been working on our own outside the auspices of the UN to diplomatically resolve the lack of compliance by SH..
So just what the heck do you want, US diplomacy or UN dipolmacy? You are very confused. Obviously you feel the UN wasn't doing an adequate job, but yet have a problem that the US didn't back down form what the UN unanimously agreed should be done way before we got to this point.
This is what I hear for the anti crowd.."The UN isn't working, do more US, do something US, oh no stop US not that way, more UN, more UN... what's wrong with more UN?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this was a confusing post, b/c what I have decided is you can't reason with people who have no logical answer for how to get to peace and refuse to look at the big pic.. All they want to do is say anti-war rhetoric, and cause public distrurbences which occupy the time of those left for homeland security. The peace movement right now is the biggest oxymorom out there. Speaking out against the war is your protected right, even if it is senseless. But to go out and cause disturbences & get arrested and take up the time of those people trying to protect us from outside threat is criminal, and I am getting sick of watching it and reading/hearing the ungrounded attitudes that fuel it.
-Diplomacy with a leader with his track record, not possible... would you do business with Enron? Why is that?
-He lied in his declarations and when he said he complied with the UN.. That was proven when he fired the first of 7 Scuds.
-His people in liberated cities are cheering in the streets that they have been freed from the oppressive tyrant SH
-History, look at the last leader with these traits that we left alone.. Yeah every one remembers Hitler.. if not pick up a history book and be sure to read about the years before he became a real problem, in case you forgot
-Speak for yourself pal! I suggest finding a country to live in where you will be proud.
"did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment." (UN imposed no fly zone)
-After reading your post I realize that you are confused like many of the protesters. You state in your posts that the UN should have been given time to maintain the peace, but yet blame the US for doing nothing over the last 12 years. Your ignorence kills me... You are upset that we go and take care of the mess left by the UN but say the US didn't do enough for diplomacy.. Even you can't get it straight! You talk about the lack of US diplomacy then say we shouldn't be doing what we are independantly. By saying this even you admit the UN diplomacy is worthless if the US should have beeen doing addition diplomacy by itself on the side. Yet you feel more UN time for diplomacy is the answer NOW?WHAT THE HECK!! We are one of the countries that make up the UN, the vessel set up to deal with world events/crisis. Yet you feel that we should have been working on our own outside the auspices of the UN to diplomatically resolve the lack of compliance by SH..
So just what the heck do you want, US diplomacy or UN dipolmacy? You are very confused. Obviously you feel the UN wasn't doing an adequate job, but yet have a problem that the US didn't back down form what the UN unanimously agreed should be done way before we got to this point.
This is what I hear for the anti crowd.."The UN isn't working, do more US, do something US, oh no stop US not that way, more UN, more UN... what's wrong with more UN?"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope this was a confusing post, b/c what I have decided is you can't reason with people who have no logical answer for how to get to peace and refuse to look at the big pic.. All they want to do is say anti-war rhetoric, and cause public distrurbences which occupy the time of those left for homeland security. The peace movement right now is the biggest oxymorom out there. Speaking out against the war is your protected right, even if it is senseless. But to go out and cause disturbences & get arrested and take up the time of those people trying to protect us from outside threat is criminal, and I am getting sick of watching it and reading/hearing the ungrounded attitudes that fuel it.
-Diplomacy with a leader with his track record, not possible... would you do business with Enron? Why is that?
-He lied in his declarations and when he said he complied with the UN.. That was proven when he fired the first of 7 Scuds.
-His people in liberated cities are cheering in the streets that they have been freed from the oppressive tyrant SH
-History, look at the last leader with these traits that we left alone.. Yeah every one remembers Hitler.. if not pick up a history book and be sure to read about the years before he became a real problem, in case you forgot
Last edited:
hydroflyer
Well-known member
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- Posts
- 254
One thing we all have to remember is that we (civilians) don't really know much. We have to get all of our information through the media....now there's a reliable source! How many times have you seen the media screw up or butcher a story? Personally I have to take what I hear with a grain of salt and trust what our president is doing. They have the information, and they have to utilize it without compromising what they have. That sure seems like great opportunity for the media to throw a twist or two into their story to make it more interesting. Now not to attack anyone, but you are debating how much diplomacy was done and whether it was enough. How much do we really know about that? If we were not there, then we had to get information that was passed down, and plenty of opportunity for it to get twisted.
scubabri
Junior Mint
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Posts
- 550
Ty Webb Said:
Hey, I understand you have an affinity for the French, but try not to let that ten minutes of passion in the men's room of a French bus station during your senior trip to Paris sway you from understanding the facts . . . . . What was his name, anyway?
It's intelligent statements like this that make me proud to be an American. I have no more affinity for the French than I do for the US. I live in the US (well, in the next couple days I will be), I'm proud to be an american.
All I am saying which is not protesting the war effort in Iraq, is that as soon as we Americans stand up as an example to the rest of the world, I firmly believe that peace will follow, it may take 50 years, but at some point, somebody has to stand up, and say NO MORE!
Yes, Saddam is a bad person, I've said it before. But the US has the best intelligence force in the world, with the best resources. How hard would it be to blockade and search vessels coming into and out of Iraq, use surveilance satellites to monitor shipments into and out of Iraq. Use strategic weapons to destroy known chemical, nuclear and biological sites?
I firmly believe that using the weapon inspectors, and using a limited military force to enforce the UN 1441 resoultion, would not only work better, be cheaper and reduce the exposure to our troops, but would also foster better relations with our allies such as france, germany and russia, because we are doing the responsible thing.
Our mission over there is to overthrow a government, something that is totally against the UN charter, as well as our own legislation. What kind of example are we setting for the rest of the world? We say the UN is ineffectual, yet we are the ones making it so by ignoring the will of the UN counsel because it is unpopular.
Again, the point that I am making is that war is to easy, especially when you have a military might such as ours. Short term, it may work, but my fear is that at some point in the future that it might rear up and bite us in the a**.
Whats the old saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.
We are AMERICANS!! We can do better than this!! I am proud to be an American. I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not a protester, I'm not a liberal sobbing peace lover. I am a reasonable american who tries to learn from history, fix its mistakes, and move forward.
Ty Webb, I am sorry you think the way you do, and it appears to me that you must be a pretty angry person to not be able to have a civil discussion regarding opinions that may differ from your own, without throwing insults. I for one think that part of being an American, the melting pot that we are, is to recognize those differences whether they be regional, cultural or enthnical, discuss them and learn from each other.
I have a belief, and the way I believe may or may not be changed by what others think, and how they express those thoughts. Just as I read the responses to the post which started this, I am reading and learning from the views of the other people. Lets keep this civil and intelligent and factual.
Brian
Hey, I understand you have an affinity for the French, but try not to let that ten minutes of passion in the men's room of a French bus station during your senior trip to Paris sway you from understanding the facts . . . . . What was his name, anyway?
It's intelligent statements like this that make me proud to be an American. I have no more affinity for the French than I do for the US. I live in the US (well, in the next couple days I will be), I'm proud to be an american.
All I am saying which is not protesting the war effort in Iraq, is that as soon as we Americans stand up as an example to the rest of the world, I firmly believe that peace will follow, it may take 50 years, but at some point, somebody has to stand up, and say NO MORE!
Yes, Saddam is a bad person, I've said it before. But the US has the best intelligence force in the world, with the best resources. How hard would it be to blockade and search vessels coming into and out of Iraq, use surveilance satellites to monitor shipments into and out of Iraq. Use strategic weapons to destroy known chemical, nuclear and biological sites?
I firmly believe that using the weapon inspectors, and using a limited military force to enforce the UN 1441 resoultion, would not only work better, be cheaper and reduce the exposure to our troops, but would also foster better relations with our allies such as france, germany and russia, because we are doing the responsible thing.
Our mission over there is to overthrow a government, something that is totally against the UN charter, as well as our own legislation. What kind of example are we setting for the rest of the world? We say the UN is ineffectual, yet we are the ones making it so by ignoring the will of the UN counsel because it is unpopular.
Again, the point that I am making is that war is to easy, especially when you have a military might such as ours. Short term, it may work, but my fear is that at some point in the future that it might rear up and bite us in the a**.
Whats the old saying, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutly.
We are AMERICANS!! We can do better than this!! I am proud to be an American. I'm not a tree hugger, I'm not a protester, I'm not a liberal sobbing peace lover. I am a reasonable american who tries to learn from history, fix its mistakes, and move forward.
Ty Webb, I am sorry you think the way you do, and it appears to me that you must be a pretty angry person to not be able to have a civil discussion regarding opinions that may differ from your own, without throwing insults. I for one think that part of being an American, the melting pot that we are, is to recognize those differences whether they be regional, cultural or enthnical, discuss them and learn from each other.
I have a belief, and the way I believe may or may not be changed by what others think, and how they express those thoughts. Just as I read the responses to the post which started this, I am reading and learning from the views of the other people. Lets keep this civil and intelligent and factual.
Brian
canadflyau
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 2, 2002
- Posts
- 437
"How hard would it be to blockade and search vessels coming into and out of Iraq, use surveilance satellites to monitor shipments into and out of Iraq. Use strategic weapons to destroy known chemical, nuclear and biological sites?
I firmly believe that using the weapon inspectors, and using a limited military force to enforce the UN 1441 resoultion, would not only work better, be cheaper and reduce the exposure to our troops,"
While I disagree with this option (and I will tell you why) I thank you for an idea.
Your idea is much like a former president tactics, a little here, a little there, little more when I need the focus off my administration. You can rent the movie "Blackhawk Down" to watch a Hollywood depection of an actual event. With out the concentrated effort you fail the people whom have been the biggest victims of the regime, the Iraqi people. I believe, and historical evidence would show, that the small limited, less tactical military action proves to be more fatal/deadly for all parties involved. In Iraq we already are getting pictures of the anti-aircraft fire that struck houses on the ground after being fired straight up, and being spun to say it was our guided weapons that hit the innocent homes. We all know better, but others..
The destruction of WMD sites can't just be bombed out and may require dismantlement, you would hate to help get a chem agent airbone with smoke. As people in the know have stated, one thing the regime does very well is discretely shipping and transporting. Many of the "vessels" are as small as briefcases carrying a small piece of weaponry that while inspected alone poses no threat, but when combined with the other briefcases... deadly.
The regime in charge is actually making monetary payments to suicide attackers families.. Unfortunately no surveilance or border patrol can stop that kind of weapon. It is a regime change that is necessary for the human rights of the Iraqi people. Maybe your idea could work on a limited scale to slowdown the connection of terrorists to the weapons produced by Iraq, but that would only further hurt the state of the suffering Iraqi people and provide them no remedy.
UN 1441 resoultion- it is not well known or publicized the steps taken by Sec Powell before the UN unanimously enacted the resolution. He specifically met individually with all the Nations and told them please do not endorse/support this resolution if you will not be willing to back this up with force, as the language of the resolution states. If you feel this way vote NO to this resolution, and obviously they did not vote NO. It was Powell who insisted on taking this route, and now he is trying to pull the 3 knives from his back.
I trust the intelligence our leaders have at their fingertips and the route they are taking. With the support of over 40 Nations this is hardly a unilateral effort. I understand how tough this decision for conflict was and don't envy their position for 1 second.
I firmly believe that using the weapon inspectors, and using a limited military force to enforce the UN 1441 resoultion, would not only work better, be cheaper and reduce the exposure to our troops,"
While I disagree with this option (and I will tell you why) I thank you for an idea.
Your idea is much like a former president tactics, a little here, a little there, little more when I need the focus off my administration. You can rent the movie "Blackhawk Down" to watch a Hollywood depection of an actual event. With out the concentrated effort you fail the people whom have been the biggest victims of the regime, the Iraqi people. I believe, and historical evidence would show, that the small limited, less tactical military action proves to be more fatal/deadly for all parties involved. In Iraq we already are getting pictures of the anti-aircraft fire that struck houses on the ground after being fired straight up, and being spun to say it was our guided weapons that hit the innocent homes. We all know better, but others..
The destruction of WMD sites can't just be bombed out and may require dismantlement, you would hate to help get a chem agent airbone with smoke. As people in the know have stated, one thing the regime does very well is discretely shipping and transporting. Many of the "vessels" are as small as briefcases carrying a small piece of weaponry that while inspected alone poses no threat, but when combined with the other briefcases... deadly.
The regime in charge is actually making monetary payments to suicide attackers families.. Unfortunately no surveilance or border patrol can stop that kind of weapon. It is a regime change that is necessary for the human rights of the Iraqi people. Maybe your idea could work on a limited scale to slowdown the connection of terrorists to the weapons produced by Iraq, but that would only further hurt the state of the suffering Iraqi people and provide them no remedy.
UN 1441 resoultion- it is not well known or publicized the steps taken by Sec Powell before the UN unanimously enacted the resolution. He specifically met individually with all the Nations and told them please do not endorse/support this resolution if you will not be willing to back this up with force, as the language of the resolution states. If you feel this way vote NO to this resolution, and obviously they did not vote NO. It was Powell who insisted on taking this route, and now he is trying to pull the 3 knives from his back.
I trust the intelligence our leaders have at their fingertips and the route they are taking. With the support of over 40 Nations this is hardly a unilateral effort. I understand how tough this decision for conflict was and don't envy their position for 1 second.
Ty Webb
Hostage to Fortune
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2001
- Posts
- 6,524
It's intelligent statements like this that make me proud to be an American. I have no more affinity for the French than I do for the US. I live in the US (well, in the next couple days I will be), I'm proud to be an american.
Whatever, kid. It's called humor. Yep, I know, your French buddies have a better sense of humor- as made obvious by their affinity for Jerry Lewis movies, but try to keep things in perspective, huh?
All I am saying which is not protesting the war effort in Iraq, is that as soon as we Americans stand up as an example to the rest of the world, I firmly believe that peace will follow, it may take 50 years, but at some point, somebody has to stand up, and say NO MORE!
This makes no sense at all. Maybe you should stand up and say "NO MORE" . . . . . . . to crack.
Yes, Saddam is a bad person, I've said it before. But the US has the best intelligence force in the world, with the best resources. How hard would it be to blockade and search vessels coming into and out of Iraq, use surveilance satellites to monitor shipments into and out of Iraq. Use strategic weapons to destroy known chemical, nuclear and biological sites?
This would be outside of the mandate of the UN, too, and you would have just as much noise from the Idiot French, Germans and Russians, because you would still be going against their political and economic interests.
Ty Webb, I am sorry you think the way you do, and it appears to me that you must be a pretty angry person to not be able to have a civil discussion regarding opinions that may differ from your own, without throwing insults.
I am not angry . . . it was actually intended to be somewhat humorous. Humor is good for you. You ought to try it. Don't take yourself so seriously, kid, no one else is. Sorry what I said about the bus station bathroom. That was wrong. . . . . . . . . . what I meant to say was "train station bathroom". Again, I apologize.
I for one think that part of being an American, the melting pot that we are, is to recognize those differences whether they be regional, cultural or enthnical, discuss them and learn from each other.
Oh, please. Who wrote this- Barney, the purple dinosaur?
Look, Barney . . . . err, Brian, I am sure that your thoughts are well-intentioned, but they are not quite completely formed. Like many theories, they work only in the vacuum of Academia.
There are bigger issues at play here that will eventually become more clear. Sit back, support our guys, and if you really want to protest something, protest the French and German clowns for putting money and politics in front of principle.
Whatever, kid. It's called humor. Yep, I know, your French buddies have a better sense of humor- as made obvious by their affinity for Jerry Lewis movies, but try to keep things in perspective, huh?
All I am saying which is not protesting the war effort in Iraq, is that as soon as we Americans stand up as an example to the rest of the world, I firmly believe that peace will follow, it may take 50 years, but at some point, somebody has to stand up, and say NO MORE!
This makes no sense at all. Maybe you should stand up and say "NO MORE" . . . . . . . to crack.
Yes, Saddam is a bad person, I've said it before. But the US has the best intelligence force in the world, with the best resources. How hard would it be to blockade and search vessels coming into and out of Iraq, use surveilance satellites to monitor shipments into and out of Iraq. Use strategic weapons to destroy known chemical, nuclear and biological sites?
This would be outside of the mandate of the UN, too, and you would have just as much noise from the Idiot French, Germans and Russians, because you would still be going against their political and economic interests.
Ty Webb, I am sorry you think the way you do, and it appears to me that you must be a pretty angry person to not be able to have a civil discussion regarding opinions that may differ from your own, without throwing insults.
I am not angry . . . it was actually intended to be somewhat humorous. Humor is good for you. You ought to try it. Don't take yourself so seriously, kid, no one else is. Sorry what I said about the bus station bathroom. That was wrong. . . . . . . . . . what I meant to say was "train station bathroom". Again, I apologize.
I for one think that part of being an American, the melting pot that we are, is to recognize those differences whether they be regional, cultural or enthnical, discuss them and learn from each other.
Oh, please. Who wrote this- Barney, the purple dinosaur?
Look, Barney . . . . err, Brian, I am sure that your thoughts are well-intentioned, but they are not quite completely formed. Like many theories, they work only in the vacuum of Academia.
There are bigger issues at play here that will eventually become more clear. Sit back, support our guys, and if you really want to protest something, protest the French and German clowns for putting money and politics in front of principle.
Last edited:
Scubabri,
We've got checkpoints at our nation's borders and we still can't keep tons of cocaines and other junk from getting in - you expect we can keep track of everything in Iraq????
You say Saddam is a bad person - lets be realistic here - how about killing 2 million of his own people, rape, torture, and anything else you care to mention - try pure, undiluted, uncompromising evil - HOW do you bring peace and freedom to Iraq without getting rid of Saddam?
You are well intentioned; but naive, unrealistic, and therefore dangerous.
We've got checkpoints at our nation's borders and we still can't keep tons of cocaines and other junk from getting in - you expect we can keep track of everything in Iraq????
You say Saddam is a bad person - lets be realistic here - how about killing 2 million of his own people, rape, torture, and anything else you care to mention - try pure, undiluted, uncompromising evil - HOW do you bring peace and freedom to Iraq without getting rid of Saddam?
You are well intentioned; but naive, unrealistic, and therefore dangerous.
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