CitationLover
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best picture of the war so far
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TEXAN AVIATOR
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Some Iraqis flying the french flag
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048263567.iraq_us_military_war_reb109.jpg
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20030321/capt.1048263567.iraq_us_military_war_reb109.jpg
scubabri
Junior Mint
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
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- 550
Why is this a good thing? Why is everyone so harsh on countries that DON'T want war? France and Germany have in the last century been part of 2 wars, that cost thousands of lives. Both france and germany should be applauded for searching for a diplomatic solution to the situation in the Middle East instead of being eagar to rush off and spend billions of dollars to destroy, kill and mame.
War has become sanitized to the point that it's easy. Both france and germany are painfully aware of the horrors of war, something that we as americans have, for the most part, only viewed through tv and movies.
War causes more war, there are people dying right now, today, this very moment... let's not forget that.
War, fighting and death are bad, plain and simple. We as a world need to stand up against war, we as Americans need to be the example for the rest of the world. If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example.
IMOHO, agression should be the last recourse, after ALL diplomatic options have run out.
Ask yourself this question, why, even before a true diplomatic solution was looked for from the UN, where massive troops built up in that region? The popular believe is that France and Germany have alternative motives, but is just possible, that they truely seek a peaceful solution and it is US that has the alternative motives.
Ask yourself the question, why do we say F*CK france and Germany for wanting a peaceful solution to this situation?
my $.02
Brian
War has become sanitized to the point that it's easy. Both france and germany are painfully aware of the horrors of war, something that we as americans have, for the most part, only viewed through tv and movies.
War causes more war, there are people dying right now, today, this very moment... let's not forget that.
War, fighting and death are bad, plain and simple. We as a world need to stand up against war, we as Americans need to be the example for the rest of the world. If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example.
IMOHO, agression should be the last recourse, after ALL diplomatic options have run out.
Ask yourself this question, why, even before a true diplomatic solution was looked for from the UN, where massive troops built up in that region? The popular believe is that France and Germany have alternative motives, but is just possible, that they truely seek a peaceful solution and it is US that has the alternative motives.
Ask yourself the question, why do we say F*CK france and Germany for wanting a peaceful solution to this situation?
my $.02
Brian
"Both france and germany should be applauded for searching for a diplomatic solution to the situation in the Middle East instead of being eagar to rush off and spend billions of dollars to destroy, kill and mame. "
I notice that you do not mention ANY of the billions that SoD@mn Insane has spent to 'kill and mame' his own people among others. Not to mention the aid and comfort he gave to those who flew OUR airplanes into OUR buildings.
"War causes more war"
When's the last time you heard anything from Kaddafi??? Sometimes it seems a couple of Mk 82s on top of their heads seems to be the only thing these people understand. Which makes Hussein even more of a madman since he did'nt seem to learn this from the first Desert excursion.
"If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example."
Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock and awe" dropping on their heads??
"my $.02"
No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
Blacksheep and A-4s forever
I notice that you do not mention ANY of the billions that SoD@mn Insane has spent to 'kill and mame' his own people among others. Not to mention the aid and comfort he gave to those who flew OUR airplanes into OUR buildings.
"War causes more war"
When's the last time you heard anything from Kaddafi??? Sometimes it seems a couple of Mk 82s on top of their heads seems to be the only thing these people understand. Which makes Hussein even more of a madman since he did'nt seem to learn this from the first Desert excursion.
"If we, can show the rest of the world that strong diplomacy works, how long will it be before the rest of the worlds aggressors follows the example."
Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock and awe" dropping on their heads??
"my $.02"
No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
Blacksheep and A-4s forever
The french don't like war because they're always losing.
It's been published and posted everywhere, but I keep thinking of the now-oft-quoted statement, "not bringing the french to battle is much like not bringing an accordion when going hunting..." and it makes me smile every time it comes to mind.
What does one expect from a nation that still can't wear a beret properly, and that prides itself on socialism and eating snails?
It's been published and posted everywhere, but I keep thinking of the now-oft-quoted statement, "not bringing the french to battle is much like not bringing an accordion when going hunting..." and it makes me smile every time it comes to mind.
What does one expect from a nation that still can't wear a beret properly, and that prides itself on socialism and eating snails?
scubabri
Junior Mint
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Posts
- 550
Quite the contrary, you have a very valid point. I am not saying that war doesn't work. But lets look at it this way. The United States has the most fearsom, well funded, best trained military in the world. One of which who has a very publicized (did I spell that right?) track record. What good has it done? We still have dictators like Kaddafi, and North Korea, and Cuba, etc etc. We impose economic sanctions against these countries, really only effects the people, which in turn, makes them hate the US, instead of hating thier government. The people that flew those airplanes into our buildings hated us for a reason.
Saddam has been in power for how many years? In 1991, we took the opportunity to push him out of Kuwait, over the next 12 years, did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment.
We tend to wait until it is to late, and then take, what I consider to be the quick lazy way out, and that is military action.
We can set an example for the rest of the world. People will recognize that prosperity, is much better than being ruled by a dictator, when they realize this, they WILL stand up for themselves.
War is easier than peace, war is quicker than peace, peace will come, but the road to peace is a long, hard, journey. Is a forced democracy more right, than a forced dictatorship? Let people choose and earn their freedom, and they WILL work to keep it.
>Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of >what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon >do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock >and awe" dropping on their heads??
Is this how you want the US to be viewed? How long do you think it will be before other countries, countries that pose no threat to the US, such as France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Mexico start to view the US as a threat to their "way of life"?
>No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your >opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
No offense taken, we are just talking about our opinions, and this is how we learn and avoid conflict, I understand how you feel as I hope you understand how I feel
Brian
Saddam has been in power for how many years? In 1991, we took the opportunity to push him out of Kuwait, over the next 12 years, did you hear anything from either the UN or US regarding them, aside from attacks over the US imposed no-fly zone? What were we doing over the last 12 years? Nothing. There has been very little in the way of diplomacy with the Iraqi goverment.
We tend to wait until it is to late, and then take, what I consider to be the quick lazy way out, and that is military action.
We can set an example for the rest of the world. People will recognize that prosperity, is much better than being ruled by a dictator, when they realize this, they WILL stand up for themselves.
War is easier than peace, war is quicker than peace, peace will come, but the road to peace is a long, hard, journey. Is a forced democracy more right, than a forced dictatorship? Let people choose and earn their freedom, and they WILL work to keep it.
>Trust me, the rest of the world's bozos are taking strong note of >what has/is/will be happening to their Iraqui buddy. How soon >do YOU think they will be interested in having the same "shock >and awe" dropping on their heads??
Is this how you want the US to be viewed? How long do you think it will be before other countries, countries that pose no threat to the US, such as France, Germany, Russia, Canada, Mexico start to view the US as a threat to their "way of life"?
>No offense intended Brian but IMHO that is about what your >opinion is worth...which I'm sure is what you think about mine.
No offense taken, we are just talking about our opinions, and this is how we learn and avoid conflict, I understand how you feel as I hope you understand how I feel
Brian
Brian,
Simply because the media hasn't been hilighting diplomacy efforts with Iraq or other nations, don't think it hasn't been an active effort. Diplomacy takes many forms, not all of which are polite, and not all of which are done with open arms.
Iraq has played a role in assisting, financing, directing, or supplying many of the terrorist acts that have taken place since the gulf war. Not all of those acts, or the nature of what has been behind them, has been made public. However, in many cases, even when terrorist acts have been carried out by individuals of other nationalities, the weapons and funding, and the impetus for the attack, can be traced back to Iraqi origin.
With respect to diplomacy, all Mr. Hussein needed to do, up until the hour of the attack, was produce the evidence that he had accomplished what he always maintained he had done: comply with the resoloution. He needed only show evidence that he had disarmed, and regardless of any political intent on this side of the pond, he would have taken the teeth out of any move to attack him.
However, the day before this action began, he demonstrated his humanitarian intent by firing on kurdish villiages. Iraq launched missles that they still claim don't exist...the power to stop all of this has always been in the Iraqi hands...all they have ever needed to do is tell the truth.
As for the subversive gutless spineless limpwristed two bit four flushing low down indiscriminate clodhopping french (lowercase "f"), they're like an accordion in more ways than one. When the pressure is on, historically they fold, let out an annoying wheezing sound as they go down, and need a lot of help to get back up. The french government made it quite clear that regardless of what the United States elected to do, they would not support it, and regardless of the Iraqi response or actions, the french would never support the US.
What should we expect more from a country that we've liberated twice, but still treats us like the agressor? Phoque the french.
Simply because the media hasn't been hilighting diplomacy efforts with Iraq or other nations, don't think it hasn't been an active effort. Diplomacy takes many forms, not all of which are polite, and not all of which are done with open arms.
Iraq has played a role in assisting, financing, directing, or supplying many of the terrorist acts that have taken place since the gulf war. Not all of those acts, or the nature of what has been behind them, has been made public. However, in many cases, even when terrorist acts have been carried out by individuals of other nationalities, the weapons and funding, and the impetus for the attack, can be traced back to Iraqi origin.
With respect to diplomacy, all Mr. Hussein needed to do, up until the hour of the attack, was produce the evidence that he had accomplished what he always maintained he had done: comply with the resoloution. He needed only show evidence that he had disarmed, and regardless of any political intent on this side of the pond, he would have taken the teeth out of any move to attack him.
However, the day before this action began, he demonstrated his humanitarian intent by firing on kurdish villiages. Iraq launched missles that they still claim don't exist...the power to stop all of this has always been in the Iraqi hands...all they have ever needed to do is tell the truth.
As for the subversive gutless spineless limpwristed two bit four flushing low down indiscriminate clodhopping french (lowercase "f"), they're like an accordion in more ways than one. When the pressure is on, historically they fold, let out an annoying wheezing sound as they go down, and need a lot of help to get back up. The french government made it quite clear that regardless of what the United States elected to do, they would not support it, and regardless of the Iraqi response or actions, the french would never support the US.
What should we expect more from a country that we've liberated twice, but still treats us like the agressor? Phoque the french.
scubabri
Junior Mint
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2003
- Posts
- 550
You ever been to France? Not Paris, France. I've been there. I've spent lots of time there. I found the French people to be very proud, very strong willed people, who have a few hundred years more experience with war than the US.
They are people, just like us, they wake up in the morning, they go to work, they get taxed, they get old die, just like us. The french are no less proud of their country and their way of life as we are with ours.
Did you ever think that maybe they were just tired? Tired of war, tired of their people dying, tired of destruction. Maybe they are just saying, enough!
France played a very important role in gaining our freedom from the British. We, as a country, may owe our very existance to the French, so be careful
I will grant that there is an oddity with economic ties to Iraq with france and germany which I am following with great interest. But on it's face, without more evidence to the contrary, I still believe that the french want a peaceful solution.
I watch the news and I see people cheering that we are going to war. I say to these people, that war should not be treated as entertainment, and that the notion of war should turn people stomaches.
Don't get me wrong.. I agree that Saddam is a bad man. I agree that he has done bad things, I agree that he probably shouldn't be in power. But are you ready to pay the long term price for taking him out in this way? All I am asking, is there a better way?
Brian
They are people, just like us, they wake up in the morning, they go to work, they get taxed, they get old die, just like us. The french are no less proud of their country and their way of life as we are with ours.
Did you ever think that maybe they were just tired? Tired of war, tired of their people dying, tired of destruction. Maybe they are just saying, enough!
France played a very important role in gaining our freedom from the British. We, as a country, may owe our very existance to the French, so be careful
I will grant that there is an oddity with economic ties to Iraq with france and germany which I am following with great interest. But on it's face, without more evidence to the contrary, I still believe that the french want a peaceful solution.
I watch the news and I see people cheering that we are going to war. I say to these people, that war should not be treated as entertainment, and that the notion of war should turn people stomaches.
Don't get me wrong.. I agree that Saddam is a bad man. I agree that he has done bad things, I agree that he probably shouldn't be in power. But are you ready to pay the long term price for taking him out in this way? All I am asking, is there a better way?
Brian
CitationLover
Aw, Nuts!
- Joined
- Feb 26, 2003
- Posts
- 3,316
scubabri,
name one instance where dimplomacy has stopped and fixed a problem other than through the use of arms? lets look at the un's (basically an organization for the 3rd world to complain against the western nations) track record:
korea - yea that has been solved
cyprus - both turkey and greece still want to invade
isreal - well they solved this one eh?
africa - hell even the 3rd world doesn't care about africa cause the un has done squat here
etc etc
of course there is a better way, but history says otherwise. yes france helped us in the revolutionary war and war of 1812 (napoleon kinda tied up the majority of british troops), however that was a long time ago.
name one instance where dimplomacy has stopped and fixed a problem other than through the use of arms? lets look at the un's (basically an organization for the 3rd world to complain against the western nations) track record:
korea - yea that has been solved
cyprus - both turkey and greece still want to invade
isreal - well they solved this one eh?
africa - hell even the 3rd world doesn't care about africa cause the un has done squat here
etc etc
of course there is a better way, but history says otherwise. yes france helped us in the revolutionary war and war of 1812 (napoleon kinda tied up the majority of british troops), however that was a long time ago.
bssthound
Enormous Member
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 541
I've been to southern France, NOT Paris and agree. They are wonderful people and were very friendly and receptive.
Of course they have hundreds of years more experience at war than we do because they've been around hundreds of years more than we have. Recent history certainly proves they're not nearly as capable at it as we are. As an analogy, my beloved but hapless New Orlean Saints have been around longer than the Baltimore Ravens and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They've not had nearly the success of those two teams, though.
Nobody wants war any less than those who are over there right now. Ask anyone with a clear understanding of Saddam and his grandiose visions and he'll tell you it's necessary. Should we wait until he finally has nuclear weapons and a means to set them off in Europe, Israel, and the United States? Should we let him ignore everything he's ever agreed to long enough for him to kill more people? How much blood on his hands is enough? How many deaths will satisfy him to the point where he'll say "okay, I'm ready to solve this diplomatically and be a peaceful, gentle, good neighbor?" Please, just give us an estimate of how many people he would kill and torture before he decides he's done enough. In the meantime, my brothers and sisters in arms, and possibly I, will be in the desert ensuring that he kills NO more innocent people.
Of course they have hundreds of years more experience at war than we do because they've been around hundreds of years more than we have. Recent history certainly proves they're not nearly as capable at it as we are. As an analogy, my beloved but hapless New Orlean Saints have been around longer than the Baltimore Ravens and the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They've not had nearly the success of those two teams, though.
Nobody wants war any less than those who are over there right now. Ask anyone with a clear understanding of Saddam and his grandiose visions and he'll tell you it's necessary. Should we wait until he finally has nuclear weapons and a means to set them off in Europe, Israel, and the United States? Should we let him ignore everything he's ever agreed to long enough for him to kill more people? How much blood on his hands is enough? How many deaths will satisfy him to the point where he'll say "okay, I'm ready to solve this diplomatically and be a peaceful, gentle, good neighbor?" Please, just give us an estimate of how many people he would kill and torture before he decides he's done enough. In the meantime, my brothers and sisters in arms, and possibly I, will be in the desert ensuring that he kills NO more innocent people.
dsee8driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2001
- Posts
- 364
France experience..
About a year ago I had the pleasure of laying over in Chateareaux,(sp) France, about 3 hrs from Paris. We had a rent a car and traveled to Normandie, Omaha Beach, and some of the American cementeries. The trip was an amazing one. On the way back we decided to go through Paris and we stopped by the Eiffell tower. We had a beer and pizza at the restaurant at the top.
My overall experience with SOME of the French people is that they were rude to us. At restaurants they offered very little help in translation. As we left the Eiffel Tower and were walking to our car I almost had to subdue our FE because a group of 2 young kids about 17 or 18 walked by us, turned around and said "You stupid Americans, go home". I guess the FE's Texas, buckle and Hard ROck t shirt gave him away
. So, from my ONLY trip to France I did stay with a bitter taste. So, if I have a chance of traveling to Europe with my wife I can tell you it will not be France.
About a year ago I had the pleasure of laying over in Chateareaux,(sp) France, about 3 hrs from Paris. We had a rent a car and traveled to Normandie, Omaha Beach, and some of the American cementeries. The trip was an amazing one. On the way back we decided to go through Paris and we stopped by the Eiffell tower. We had a beer and pizza at the restaurant at the top.
My overall experience with SOME of the French people is that they were rude to us. At restaurants they offered very little help in translation. As we left the Eiffel Tower and were walking to our car I almost had to subdue our FE because a group of 2 young kids about 17 or 18 walked by us, turned around and said "You stupid Americans, go home". I guess the FE's Texas, buckle and Hard ROck t shirt gave him away
. So, from my ONLY trip to France I did stay with a bitter taste. So, if I have a chance of traveling to Europe with my wife I can tell you it will not be France.
Diplomacy only works if the parties are willing to listen. Sadaam would never listen. He deserved to get his ass kicked.
There are hundreds of reasons to remove him from power. Sadly many of those reasons could be used in other countries where we may or may not step in. The French and especially the Russians were owed billions of dollars by the Iraq's after their war with Iran. They have selfish reasons for not wanting to remove Sadaam.
All the people with their "No Blood for Oil" signs can kiss my ass. What do you think Sadaam does? He gasses his own people so he can remain in power to get rich off of the countries oil.
I am all for peace. I am all for being compassionate, I am all for discussion and dialogue. However, if at the end of the day a regime like what has been in power in Iraq for 30 years won't listen it is time to drop the bombs.
LET'S ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are hundreds of reasons to remove him from power. Sadly many of those reasons could be used in other countries where we may or may not step in. The French and especially the Russians were owed billions of dollars by the Iraq's after their war with Iran. They have selfish reasons for not wanting to remove Sadaam.
All the people with their "No Blood for Oil" signs can kiss my ass. What do you think Sadaam does? He gasses his own people so he can remain in power to get rich off of the countries oil.
I am all for peace. I am all for being compassionate, I am all for discussion and dialogue. However, if at the end of the day a regime like what has been in power in Iraq for 30 years won't listen it is time to drop the bombs.
LET'S ROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: "Stupid" Americans
Exactly. I have been to France many times and have had no problems. One rude person once. How many rude people do I come across in America on a daily basis? Lots. Anyway if I was there and someone said something to me that would be my exact reply. Let your wallet do the talking. Don't spend our dollars there or on any products and they will get the message. There are plenty of other great countries to visit in Europe.
bssthound said:
Exactly. I have been to France many times and have had no problems. One rude person once. How many rude people do I come across in America on a daily basis? Lots. Anyway if I was there and someone said something to me that would be my exact reply. Let your wallet do the talking. Don't spend our dollars there or on any products and they will get the message. There are plenty of other great countries to visit in Europe.
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