Best aircraft for $14 million?

[con-pilot]

With the runway restrictions you have stated and the fact that you may start operating over water I would definitely recommend a used Falcon 50.

There are a few Falcon 50EXs on the market but are above your budget by a couple of million dollars.

However, there are some used mid-time straight Falcon 50 on the market that would fit well within your budget. I would recommend finding a 50 with the 3-D engines.

It it practically impossible to over gross a Falcon unless you going to be hauling around gold bars. You can literally fill the tanks and have an adult in every seat with normal baggage and still be below maximum gross weight.

While the baggage compartment is not accessible in flight, it is pressurized.

The hourly operational cost is slightly above the other aircraft mentioned in this thread, mainly due to the third engine.

The biggest drawback of the 50 is that it is out of production. However, as the Falcon 900 and the Falcon 200 use the same wing and landing gear components I don't believe the fact of the 50 being out of production will have a major effect.

I have operated a Falcon 50 with 3-D engines and a Falcon 50EX from the Oklahoma City to London numerous times, with one fuel stop. I have done VNY to London in the straight 50, with only one fuel stop.

If you have any questions please send me a PM.

 

[Lead Sled]

...One of the problems is that if the crap hits the fan in Israel (which it's going to do), most parts are going to be unavailable...

That will be a very real problem with any of the Astra variants and the G200. When the first Scud lands in Tel Aviv the timing to get certain replacement airframe parts will be best measured in geologic time and I say that as a real fan of those airplanes (I'm typed in all but the G150.) If I had a $14.0 million budget and I was looking to upgrade from a Hawker I'd do exactly what I did a couple of years ago and the boss gave me a little less budget than what you're talking about to upgrade out of an Astra.

We bought a nice Falcon 50 and did the Proline 21 upgrade. You'll end up with a NICE airplane that you can basically fly anywhere and without much worry about loading - we can top off the tanks, fill every seat, and stuff the baggage compartment with all of their stuff and still be right at 1000 lbs under max takeoff weight and we're still in CG. We're based at an airport with a 4600' of usable runway and we go to Aspen on a very regular basis. A Falcon 50 won't give you much to complain about.

When you're done, the boss will have $3 or $4 million left over to invest and collect interest on. The interest alone will pay for the first 100 to 150 hours you put on the airplane annually.

LS

 

[Lead Sled]

Yeah, I think I can kiss the Sovereign goodbye. The greater baggage space would be awesome but $15.5 million for a used one is just too pricey unfortunately . I agree about the boots. I have never flown an Astra/G100/G150 aircraft but from what I've read on FI the boots aren't much of a problem. I guess I'm a little skeptical though. Thanks for the input!

No need to be skeptical. The boots are really a non-issue. You need to remember that heated leading edges are considered anti-icing devices and pneumatic leading edge boots are considered deicing devices. There is a big difference between the two concepts.

The problem with heated leading edge anti-ice systems is that they need heat and lots of it. The heat typically comes from an engine bleed air source. Anytime you take that much heat from an engine you also take away a significant amount of power.

For anti-ice systems to be effective you must turn them on prior to entering icing conditions, otherwise they will just melt the ice and the water will flow back to places that are protected and refreeze - not a good thing. Also, chunks of ice can come off and go through the engines (B727, DC9, MD-80, Lear, Gulfstreams, Citations, Falcons, etc - anything with rear mounted engines.)

On the Lears and Falcons that I've flown, turning on the wing heat had a significant effect on the climb capability of the aircraft, something in the range of 30% to 50%.

When I first trained in the Astra, I was very sceptical - boots on a modern jet airplane, you've got to be kidding? In the real world, they're actually pretty nice. You only use them when you need them, and they don't extract a performance penality when you do. I've got over 4,000 hours in Astras and G200s and they work extremely well - I think. I say that because the wing design is not prone to collecting ice and I can count on one hand the actual number of times that I've ever had to use them in self defense, all of the other times were for amusement purposes only.

Believe it or not, as much as I love flying the Falcon, I actually miss the boots every time I have to fly around with the airbrakes extended so that I can maintain enough N1 to keep the leading edges hot or when we've got to run the airframe A/I during climb. It's actually a real pain in the keester and something that I never had to even consider in the Astras and G200.

Like I said earlier, if you've got a budget that will allow you to spend $10 to $11 million, you'll be able to find a nice 50, completely refurbish it and do the full Proline 21 conversion (It is amazing what that does for the airplane!). You'll have one heck of a nice airplane that will take you anywhere you need to go. We're very happy with ours.

LS

 

[Bullitt]

Con-pilot thanks for the great info I really appreciate it and PM sent! Lead Sled thanks a lot for the detailed reply, I was hoping you'd chime in on this thread. I've read your other posts regarding the boots on the Astra and I think you've converted me. It sounds like it is more of an advantage than a disadvantage. The more I read about a straight 50 with the mods the more I like it. It sounds like the most bang for the buck. Sled what did the engine and proline 21 conversion run your company? Do the modifications improve mx cost significantly? Great stuff, I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond!

 

[Lead Sled]

Personally I think that once you past the idea of "1930's boots technology" on a state-of-the-art corporate jet, they still make a lot of sense. When I hear guys bad mouth Astras or G200s because of the boots I pretty much just assume that they've never flown the airplane. Having to screw around with minimum N1 settings and airbrakes in order to maintain sufficient pressure in the leading edges isn't a big deal, but it does add one more item to deal with at a high workload portion of the flight. It's all probably what you're used to. I had been away from it for quite a while while I was flying the IAI products and I'd just gotten lazy. I certainly don't mean to bad mouth the 50. It's probably the nicest flying airplane out there. I consider it more of a quirk than anything else - kind of like the mole on what's her name's face.

We have a straight 50 with the -3D engines. We had Duncan install the Proline 21 system. The ballpark cost for the conversion is $2.0 +/- a little one way or another depending upon some options that you go with.

We didn't mod the engines, they came wit the airplane. I don't know that I would bother with the -3D mod for now. You really don't get much for it other than DEECs - the performance numbers are the same for it and the -3Cs. I'd let Allied Signal do the mods when they core the engine, otherwise you'll have to pay for it. There are a couple of other engine mods out there that may or may not make sense. Allied Signal has a -40 mod that essentially turns it into a 50EX. I have a couple of friends that did that to their Proline 21 Falcon 50 and they ended up with better than 50EX airplanes - the 50EXs come with Proline 4 equipment. That engine mod hasn't been all that popular though. There is another engine mod that's just becoming available. I forget their name, but some group is installing the TFE731-4 engine in the airframe. It's supposed to give you most of the performance benefits of the -40 for a lot less cost. If it is successful in the marketplace it would be something that we would take a look at. The straight 50 isn't known for it's enthusiastic climb capabilities up at altitude and a little more power could be appreciated.

I'm not at liberty to divulge what we paid for the airplane, what I can say is that for somewhere between $10M and $12M you'll be able to find a clean DA-50, do a thorough C check, a complete interior and exterior refurb, and do the full Proline 21 install. You'll end up with an Falcon 50 that's arguably better than new.

As far as the Proline 21 mod for the Falcon 50 goes. Right now the number of straight 50s that have either had the mod completed or have contracted to have it done is right around 30 or a little more than 10% of the fleet. More operators are getting in line each month. It appears as though, a some point in the future, it's going to be one of those "must have" mods - kind of like the Garrett engine conversion was on the Falcon 20.

As far as the effect on maintenance costs; yes, it will help a little. In our case, the MSP rate on the -3Ds is slightly less than the original -3Cs. As far as airframe maintenance goes, we basically zeroed our our inspection cycles so we were able to start fresh on our inspection intervals. We have always participated in the Collins CASP program so we know what our avionics maintenance costs will be. It may not be for everyone, but it works for us.

If you're serious about going the DA-50 Proline 21 conversion PM me and we'll talk "off forum".

LS

 

[Bullitt]

Great Info

Very Informative post LS I appreciate it! PM is on the way

 

[johnsonrod]

Go for the Falcon 50 with the ProLine set-up! That sounds like a winner to me! Gorgeous airplane and three engines for the super safety-concious owners.

 

[Bullitt]

Go for the Falcon 50 with the ProLine set-up! That sounds like a winner to me! Gorgeous airplane and three engines for the super safety-concious owners.

I gotta agree it is one of the best looking aircraft out there no question!

 

[CRAZY LEGS]

The more I read about a straight 50 with the mods the more I like it. It sounds like the most bang for the buck. Sled what did the engine and proline 21 conversion run your company? Do the modifications improve mx cost significantly? Great stuff, I appreciate you guys taking the time to respond!


The straight 50 is getting pretty long in the tooth. Your boss might like the acquisition price but he's not going to like the operating costs or the maintenance bills. Also, with the 50 line being discontinued parts support isn't likely to improve. Most midsize jets can make it to Europe with one stop so I wouldn't let a small % of your trips dictate the type of aircraft that you buy. The safe bet. Stay out of the process all together. That way your boss can't point the finger at you when he's unhappy about the airplane.

 

[learflyer]

Falcon 50 it is!

 

[Lead Sled]

The straight 50 is getting pretty long in the tooth. Your boss might like the acquisition price but he's not going to like the operating costs or the maintenance bills. Also, with the 50 line being discontinued parts support isn't likely to improve. Most midsize jets can make it to Europe with one stop so I wouldn't let a small % of your trips dictate the type of aircraft that you buy. The safe bet. Stay out of the process all together. That way your boss can't point the finger at you when he's unhappy about the airplane.

You raised some valid points. Although the 50 has been discontinued, there are enough of them out there that support should never be a problem for the foreseeable future. We thought long and hard about the maintenance issues, and I would be a lot less enthusiastic about a 25 year old airframe if we had to operate it in its original condition. However, with the Proline 21 the airplane was essentially rewired, front to back and all of the old inverters were removed. We converted to lead acid batteries. In fact, we gained about 175 lbs useful load after all was said and done. I saw the pile of old wiring, inverters, etc. that was removed, it was pretty incredible. The airframe essentially went through an IRAN program, the avionics are new and on the Collins CASP program, the engines and APU are on MSP Gold, the cosmetics are "on condition". There's really not a lot of room left for surprises - other than the normal "airplane stuff" that all airplanes are subject to.

LS

 

[Beechjetr]

My company just bought a new 900XP and we just got some runway data.

Flaps 15
28000 lbs (MTOW)
1000' elev
35 C
Takeoff Dist= 6047'

BOW = 16,500
Full Fuel = 10,000

same conditions, at 27,000 lbs:
Takeoff Dist = 5596'

PM me if you want more numbers.

I think base price on the 2008 900XP is just over $14M

 

[Tgaug6300]

It is still a great airplane. No doubt about that. With all the mods it makes it nicer. But, at the end of the day you still have a 25 year old airplane.

 

[Beechjetr]

40 year old airplane.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Bullitt -

Why dont y'all just move the 20 miles south down I-35W and base out of a real airport - KAFW, then you could buy whatever airplane you wanted with our fancy CAT III 9,600' runway. Used MD-83's are going for 4.0 MIL right now and just think of all the room for cargo.

On a more serious note, "the other" Fourtune 500 company corporate flight department based here at AFW seems to be sold on the Isreal product. BNSF has two G-200's and a G-150 on the way. The good thing about that is, being local they do all of their training at FSI DFW for both so you are home for all initials and recurrents (not always a good thing granted) and the service center is at KDAL. Just another factor(s) to consider.

No matter what, congrats on getting a new bird.

 

[Bullitt]

Bullitt -

Why dont y'all just move the 20 miles south down I-35W and base out of a real airport - KAFW, then you could buy whatever airplane you wanted with our fancy CAT III 9,600' runway. Used MD-83's are going for 4.0 MIL right now and just think of all the room for cargo.

On a more serious note, "the other" Fourtune 500 company corporate flight department based here at AFW seems to be sold on the Isreal product. BNSF has two G-200's and a G-150 on the way. The good thing about that is, being local they do all of their training at FSI DFW for both so you are home for all initials and recurrents (not always a good thing granted) and the service center is at KDAL. Just another factor(s) to consider.

No matter what, congrats on getting a new bird.

Man, we could get atleast 3 super cool Mad Dogs for that price! :laugh: I appreciate the congrats Cool Hand Luke, we actually have talked about moving the dept. to AFW for the reasons you mentioned. It is a more suitable airport in my opinion considering the rwy length and approaches they have. At the moment, DTO is more convenient to their offices so I'm basing all my research on flying out of a 6000 ft strip. It be nice if they moved to AFW since it would be a lot shorter drive for me . Thanks for chiming in Cool Hand, good info!

 

[G100F16]

Bullit-

Lots of momentum in the group on this F50 plan. Somebody called the -50 a "has been" - and I agree, why go after yesterday's airplane; get something with today/tomorrow's technology.

The G150 is not merely a warmed over Astra...it is a Gulfstream now. Assembled in Israel, yes - but most of the parts/spares don't originate there, and Gulfstream has gotten the #1 spot in product support for 5 yrs straight. Performance - it is beating even Gulfstream's cruise predictions, will burn around 4200# to MMU and 4500# to SMF . Boots - Lead Sled is right - not a problem...boots are great. Takeoff - it needs about 5300 feet of runway for 23k, Flaps20 and 34 deg (data from a G100 with less thrust).

But hey - if you're not sold on the F50 facelift, why not call up Gulfstream (Mike Rose - 214-437-7757) and tell him your boss wants a free trip to MMU in a G150?

-G

PS. Getting a new plane....nice problem to have!

 

[whymeworry?]

What about a Legacy? Sure it's outside your budget ($19-21 mil) but perhaps you could find a used one for close to the $14 mil price you're limited to.

I operated a Legacy into a 4,000 runway in Switzerland all the time.

Your boss might be willing to up his budget once he sees the interior and range capabilites a Legacy provides. Twice the baggage capacity as a GV, 40% cheaper DOC than a GV.

Considering all the airplane you get for that price, I think the Legacy is the best VFM (value for money) investmentin the charter market today.

 

[hawkerjet]

Hawker 900XP

I believe, as stated earlier, that the best move for you at 14 mil, would be a brandy new Hawker 900XP.
The dash 50 engines ( 731) would make this aircraft a real good performer. One added benefit is that you can put this aircraft on Raytheons 135 cert, allowing your boss the tax haven he sought and giving you flexibility to select additional trips should you choose to. Sure beats parking it on someone elses cert and the boss is happy.

 

[Vne]

Ah that would be 7, P-51's!