Beechjet question....

[learflyer]

I'm a sim/ground instructor at a large part 142 school. Looking to see what some of you think. We (instructors) got into a discussion today about landing flaps 10 with a single engine, and landing assured, the option of going flaps full. We all agree that going flaps full is silly due to the configuration changes, etc. I started teaching flaps 20 landings under this condition because, it gives a better visibility to the runway when you break out (nose down). We all looked together at the AFM/POM and our competitors profiles as well. We couldn't find anything that prohibits us from landing flaps 20. Problem is, there is no data to support this kind of landing. All we found in the pom is a small note in the approach check that stated "do not select beyond flaps 10 until landing assured". my opinion is we can land flaps 20 with a SE. What do some of you think? Would we need data to support it?

thanks.

 

[avbug]

What does the school say about introducing your own technique?

How much experience do any of you have, performing this technique in the airplane?

Lacking data to back up what you teach, what will you, or your students do to fall back on authority, when questioned?

 

[learflyer]

What's confusing is, is that in our profiles it says "land flaps 10 or 20 until landing assured then go to 30 if desired." (single engine)Our argument is that the profiles were approved by the faa last year so we shouldn't worry. But...there is no data backing up the claim that you may land flaps 20. Only 10.

 

[avbug]

With that in mind, is there justification for making any change at all if concern exists for a configuration change?

If you're willing to make a configuration change once committed to land, why limit yourself to a partial change, vs. a complete configuration?

Some aircraft may be fully configured at the FAF for all conditions...but some may not. Some aircraft do need gear left up, flaps left up, until landing assured. Configuring at that point isn't uncommon for some aircraft...especially light airplanes and part 23 airplanes.

Particularly in this case, the instruction you detailed states that the approach be made at flaps 10 or 20, then go to 30 as desired; the instruction doesn't suggest going to any other setting if desired, but going to 30. Is that correct?

I'm not telling you what to do, just wondering why teach 20 when it's not spelled out, vs. simply configuring right to 30? Generally Part 142 centers teach to a strict standard in accordance with the manufacturer recommendations. This sounds like one of those times when consulting with the manufacturer directly may be of value.

 

[learflyer]

Particularly in this case, the instruction you detailed states that the approach be made at flaps 10 or 20, then go to 30 as desired; the instruction doesn't suggest going to any other setting if desired, but going to 30. Is that correct?

quote]

that's correct. I've got emails and calls out to Raytheon as we speak. I'm beginning to think that if you may land SE flaps 20, then it must've been approved by the operator's POI. I'm not sure of the reason why You can't just land using full flaps (at the marker) with a SE. I would think it is because of the adverse yaw that would be generated with all of the drag. It would be close to 90% N1 with full flaps. That's only a guess however.

 

[nosehair]

in our profiles it says "land flaps 10 or 20 until landing assured then go to 30 if desired."

That looks, sounds, and acts like you can do whatever you want...."as desired". What am I missing?

 

[BEfly]

I think its fine. I, however, land SE flaps 10 in the sim. Makes it easier, in the sim. 2 reasons I stay with flaps 10 in the sim 1) Less control inputs. I'm already est. and to add flaps would require a power change and therefore a rudder input or two. and that might get me off my groove 2) Also a SE go around is a hellova lot easier w/ flaps 10.

My experiences and opinions. In real life with real climb %, ppl, runways, and weather, it's as desired!

 

[learflyer]

Thanks. I guess were all over thinking it. It's a matter of teaching this technique to our clients. Working in the 142 world, EVERYTHING needs to be proven. " show me in the books Ref speeds for flaps 20 landing" etc. Case closed.

 

[MauleSkinner]

" show me in the books Ref speeds for flaps 20 landing"

What's the guideline for ref speed when you have a flap asym at roughly flaps 20, and where is it found?

I'm guessing that the way your manual is written has to do with the fact that some of these airplanes have a flap 20 selection and some don't...I was taught to "reduce the flaps by one setting for a single-engine approach" in the Beechjet, which takes you from flap 30 to flap 20 in some Beechjets, and to flap 10 in others on an ILS.

Fly safe!

David

 

[acaTerry]

If the runway is over 6000 feet, flaps 10. Under 6000 feet, use flaps 20. Remember, this thing will slide at 10 AGL for a loooooong way with the flaps 10 approach speed. Flaps 30 is out of the question for me. This thing is a pig on the go around SE from flaps 30, and not to mention, in the sim going from 10 to 30 really screws you up.