Becoming a pilot with an arrest...

[zkmayo]

Yea society these days is pretty crazy compared to what my uncles and family and friends parent could get away with back in the day.

Can I just get a few straight answers...is it worth my time to go through the training to become an airline pilot?

Sean

If your absolutely committed to making the worst career decision possible which many of us on here did and probably regret it when its too late to do most anything else, Id say by all means go for it.

But seriously. My advice, fly as a hobby but continue towards an education with an eye towards a "real job." Then if you must, persue flying. By then all the questions you have as hopefully the industry will be much clearer/healthier.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

It sounds like you plea bargained down to a misdemeanor. You did the community service as a punishment for your conviction on a reduced charge. Like others have said, if you were not convicted of something you would not have had any punishment. You do not however have any felony convictions on your record. Here is the TSA regulations regarding this stuff. All of these crimes are disqualifying

In accordance with Transportation Security Regulation (TSR) 49 CFR, all employees that are granted unescorted access to a Security Identification Display Area (SIDA) and employees that have access to aircraft must undergo a fingerprint based Criminal History Record Check (CHRC). The following is a list of disqualifying crimes:

1. Forgery of certificates, false marking of aircraft and other aircraft registration violation; 49 U.S.C 46306.
2. Interference with air navigation; 49 U.S.C.46308.
3. Improper transportation of a hazardous material; 49 U.S.C. 46312.
4. Aircraft piracy; 49 U.S.C 46502 .
5. Interference with flight crew members or flight attendants; 49 U.S.C 46504.
6. Commission of certain crimes aboard aircraft in flight; 49 U.S.C.46506.
7. Carrying a weapon or explosive aboard aircraft ; 49 U.S.C. 46505.
8. Conveying false information and threats ; 49 U.S.C. 46507.
9. Aircraft piracy outside the special aircraft jurisdiction of the United States; 49 U.S.C 46402 (b).
10. Lighting violations involving transporting controlled substances; 49 U.S.C.46315.
11. Unlawful entry into an aircraft or airport area that serves air carriers or foreign carriers contrary to established security requirements; 49 U.S.C. 46314.
12. Destruction of an aircraft or aircraft facility; 18 U.S.C 32 .
13. Murder.
14. Assault with intent to murder.
15. Espionage.
16. Sedition.
17. Kidnapping or hostage taking.
18. Treason.
19. Rape or aggravated sexual abuse.
20. Unlawful possession, use, sale, distribution, or manufacture or an explosive or weapon.
21. Extortion.
22. Armed or felony unarmed robbery.
23. Distribution of or intent to distribute a controlled substance.
24. Felony arson.
25. Felony involving a threat.
26. Felony involving willful destruction of property .
27. Felony involving importation or manufacture of a controlled substance.
28. Felony involving burglary.
29. Felony involving theft.
30. Felony involving dishonesty, fraud and misrepresentation.
31. Felony involving possession or distribution of stolen property.
32. Felony involving aggravated assault.
33. Felony involving bribery.
34. Felony involving illegal possession of a controlled substance punishable by a maximum term of imprisonment of more than 1 year.
35. Violence at international airport; 18 U.S.C. 37.
36. Conspiracy or attempt to commit any of the criminal acts listed above.

In the past ten (10) years, have you ever been convicted or found not guilty by reason of insanity of any of the above listed crimes?

I am not an expert but I believe that Assault with a deadly weapon is aggravated assault. You, it sounds not convicted of that but of a lessor charge that would not be disqualifying.

At the very least I would disclose what happened to any future employer and have a really good way to explain it.

You have not invested a lot of time or money in a flying career yet and before you do, you need to think about two things.

First consider that after you get your hours and are looking for your first job after CFI there will be thousands of applicants with more hours than you in aircraft that are more complex then the ones you have flown. They do not have any blemishes on there record and they have good friends that already work at the airline. So why would they hire you?

Second, you need to figure out what happened. It sound like either your lawyer wasn't straight with you, or you weren't really paying attention to all that happened. You need to basically do your own background check.

I am not a lawyer and I would definitely find one that you can trust (if one actually exists) before spending 50 grand on flying.

 

[Snakum]

Get yourself a laywer and get it exsponged from your record

And get fired during ground school if you didn't put it on your application. Run a search ... it's been covered extensively. You outhouse lawyers are going to get some young pilot's heart broken.


Minh

 

[navigator72]

I would continue with flight training..... In a few years when you are ready for the airlines (assuming you have no other arrests). tell them the truth, be totally honest with them. if you try to cover it up, they are going to find out and you won't get the job. If you accept responsibilty for your actions, The interviewer will see this and you might just get the job flying the big jets.

We all have made mistakes, Not all of us point guns at people but we all make mistakes.
Goodluck

 

[siucavflight]

You did community service? You were convicted plain and simple. Can you get an airline job? Sure, but your chances are slim. Think of it like this, me and you have the exact same qualifications for the job, you have an assult conviction, I have a clean record and they are only hiring one pilot, guess who is getting the job?

 

[Snakum]

Oh ... and one more thing. I sure hope you listed it on your student medical application. They gave a guy six months in federal prison in the town next to mine for not doing so. And I'mnot talking about a suspended sentence. He went to prison. You will, sooner or later, have someone go thru your records, and if they find it (and they will) ... you're toast. And I'm not joking, and I'm not exaggerating. Run a search. It's all there.

If you have filled out a student medical form already and failed to list it because someone told you it was 'expunged' (no such thing for federal investigative purposes by the way, and that's straight from an agent's mouth) ... call the FAA now and own up to it. Someone else here did that and came out OK.

We need a sticky about this at the top of the forum. These questions come up every couple months and invariably there's someone telling a student pilot "It was expunged ... don't worry about it." or "If you were a minor it doesn't show". I went thru every single scenario you could possibly come up with when I was investigated, just so I could give people the straight dope. The agent understood why I asked and says he sees it all the time and that the FAA is no longer tolerating ignorance of the rules or some young student trying to skirt it. Since 9/11 they are NOT playing. They will nail your ass to a cross if you try to bend the rules. And then there are the 121 pilots here who've SEEN guys pulled out of ground school and sent home because they took bad advice.

How do we lobby for a 'sticky'?

Minh

Original Poster ... PM me for details. I went thru the full boat investigation last year and asked a million questions. I have a misdemeanor conviction and I know already that for corporate aviation it's not a big deal if you're upfront. The people I fly with know all about it, and have from day one. So even if you can't fly for a 121 operation there are many other options for you, if you want it bad enough. But if you dont list it on the medical ... bad juju, bro. I was d*mn glad that I had listed it on every app since 1996 and could prove it with copies. It saved my license. PM me if you want.

 

[Galaxy]

And get fired during ground school if you didn't put it on your application. Run a search ... it's been covered extensively. You outhouse lawyers are going to get some young pilot's heart broken.


Minh

The first thing a lawyer would do is listen to his story then check his legal record. Then take necesary action. What he has here is a legal issue..leave it to a lawyer not some computer savvy pilot..First if he was to make it through a background check and get to ground school why would he get fired? As far as breaking some young pilots heart... I will leave that to a laywer or some HR geek in a nicely worded letter.
This thread has been baited anyway..from being arrested for a felony then doing Community Service but no conviction?? Please tell me that even if you were ignorant to the law if your butt was on the line I would learn about it real fast.

 

[SiuDude]

What you need to do is get a fingerpring based background check from the FBI.
Here's the link, it costs $18:
http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/fprequest.htm
I guarantee you that they will have a record of that arrest. FBI does not normally keep track of dispositions, so it will not indicate whether you were convicted or not..
I was in a similar situation. I was charged with misdemeanor theft about 5 years ago but never convicted. I applied and received an expungement in Illinois. That clears out the state and county records. A notice is also sent to the FBI with the request to remove the arrest record. It is up to you to follow up with the feds and make sure that it is removed.
Most airline applications only ask about convictions. In that case the answer is no.
AWAC's application asks the following question:
"During the past 10 years, have you been a defendant in any criminal proceedings in any court of law?" The answer is yes. Even if it was expunged, don't lie on the interview.

 

[BR549]

alright, this is actually starting to confuse me now! all I know is that my lawyer told me I don't have a criminal record, he did a background check and there is no criminal record for myself. I shouldnt of put the case was "dismissed" I didn't even get pre trial probation which is the lowest possible thing you can get. All I know is they reduced what I had originally gotten, then the judge said if I did the service, he would clear the case.... I had my lawyer look up a criminal record, and I dont have one, so whatever it ended up as. Its not criminal...

Just a hunch, but was you lawyer a public defender?

 

[SeanAucoin]

hey BR,

he was not a public defender he did service as head DA for the boston region for several years, and also an attorney for the police union

 

[FN FAL]

hey BR,

he was not a public defender he did service as head DA for the boston region for several years, and also an attorney for the police union

Well there you go...put him to work to find the vouchsafed answer for you. That's what I would do. The money spent is worth the peace of mind.

 

[pilotmiketx]

You need Denny Crane.

Seriously, did your half-assed ambualance chaser ever mention words "deferred adjudication" (dee furred a jude uh cay shun?) In some cases, at the judges discretion a charge can be dismissed if you meet certain criteria. The criteria can be anything from going a certain time without another arrest or doing community service or getting your gang tattoos removed, etc. Basically the disposition (adjudication) is put on hold (deferred) until the action is completed or the time has expired. Unlike receiving probation, it is NOT a conviction if the judge's criteria are met.

Since I'm sure you all are wondering how I came to be so knowledgeable about this topic...Once upon a time I had a student who got caught with a "green leafy substance"...and he waits 'til the day before his checkride to bring it up.

 

[lawfly]

Not personally familiar with deferred adjudication, but is an informative post. There can also be instances where there may appear to be no public record of a particular criminal conviction (to a include guilty or nolo plea) but where there is an internal record for purposes of sentencing in the event of any subsequent convictions. In other words, should there be another criminal conviction downstream, there could be a "prior" for purposes of sentencing. Cannot tell what exactly is your situation. A plea agreement can include a reduction to a misdemeanor, a dismissal (of the original charge/complaint), and an eventual expungement if all terms are complied with, but the whole thing could still constitute a "prior" should there ever be an occasion to pass sentence later for something else. Of course, talk to your attorney and this is not intended to address your particular case--only general info.

 

[FN FAL]

Don't forget, police departments keep local files for life.

What's on local files? Anytime you ever called the cops for anything, any time your name was mentioned when someone else called the cops and warning tickets (look at the top, It'll be called a "citizen contact report"). Usually, local files are for investigative purposes only...but I would imagine that a police department might share this dossier with other local police agencies and possibly the feds if the Police Chief was being nice that day.

Also, courts have laws on when they may destroy court records. In Wisconsin, felony court records may be destroyed at 50 or 70 years. Misdemeanor crimes may be destroyed at 20 years and some types of court records may be destroyed at 5, 7 and 10 years. May means may, not must.

I would imagine that the cost and liability of maintaining files that are no longer required, means that most courts do an annual shredding or burn fest.

 

[NYCPilot]

It may not be a conviction even though he has served community service. It's not uncommon for kids around the city to get busted doing almost anything, from hopping a turnstyle to something more serious. You can get "pinched" for the trivalist thing. Tresspassing for instance, on someones abandoned property.

Anyway, most arrests are usually felonies but 10 out of 10 times the court reduces them to a lesser charge and assigns community service to individuals. They basically clean a park or subway station for a couple of weekends. Contingent upon completing the comunity service AND not being arrested for 6 or 12 months, they are issed an ACD which is a conditional discahrge. IF you complete the coumminty service and stay out of trouble for the period of time (6 months) it will be as if it never happened. It is NOT a conviction. I belive that if you viloate these terms by being arrested within this period of time you will be convicted of the lesser charge agreed upon. Otherwise, if you stay clean it is technically "sealed" and you can legally state that you were never arrested.

IF I were you, I would do that FBI background check thing for $18 and see what it turns up. Consideringthe circumstances, its is very minor and shouldnt be a problem.

 

[SeanAucoin]

hey nyc,

for the fbi background check can I just go to the local police to get the fingerprints needed?

sean

 

[NYCPilot]

hey nyc,

for the fbi background check can I just go to the local police to get the fingerprints needed?

sean

Not sure how to obtain them, but that might be a good place to start. Give them a call and explain your intentions. They should be able to help you from there.
Good luck and don't worry too much.

 

[SeanAucoin]

I just called, they'll do it free of charge and take care of sending everything over there for me!

Yea im not going to worry to much. as long as im upfront and explain the situation, its understandable. Ive talked to pilots who couldnt get hired in the regionals and they said corporate aviation overlooks charges for the most part. plus there are many other routes of aviation. i'll get there somehow. not a big deal!

 

[Metro752]

So when is someone going to say to find an older well known lawyer who knows judges. Pay him his fees, and get it all taken care of.

You didn't do ANYTHING wrong from what you said here, nothing should have ever came of it.

Quit posting here and get a lawyer. Aggravated Assault with a Deadly Cap Gun Man

 

[soarby007]

This is sounding to me like a pre-trial diversion. Call the clerk of the court or go see the judge's clerk and ask the simple question. "have I been convicted of anything?"....or call the officer. Often times on minor offenses the judges will allow the defendant to complete some type of service and after successful completion, dismiss the charges, ergo, leaving no record of conviction. There would be a record of arrest and that doesn't go away, but that doesn't necesarilly ruin you.

Most of the time this applies to individuals of a more youthful nature, i.e. under age 26. It is a rather simple matter to check one's own criminal record at the sheriff's office or police department. By the way, did you have a lawyer during this ordeal? You could hardly be convicted of anything other than a misdemeanor without a lawyer these days. Most judges require it

You need to keep aware of what you are doing in a courtroom buddy and ask questions of the right people, not a web site.

 

[Snakum]

It is NOT a conviction. I belive that if you viloate these terms by being arrested within this period of time you will be convicted of the lesser charge agreed upon. Otherwise, if you stay clean it is technically "sealed" and you can legally state that you were never arrested.

This is directly and clearly in complete opposition to what I was told, and shown, by a Federal Agent who works for the FAA conducting background checks. I will say it one last time ... if you have ever, at any time in your life, been arrested for a felony offense, regardless of the eventual disposition of the case, the FAA will see it and they will chase down further info on the charges. And from everything I have heard from those who've been there-done that (two pilots fired in ground school, one fired after many years with Comair.), this same thing applies to the airlines. Ask Surplus1 about his friend who was told there'd "be no record". All his years of service at Comair down the drain. Ask the guys at Mesaba and at Chautauqua who were told that "the record will be sealed" and were then pulled out of groundschool and fired when the BGs came back.

The question is always "Have you ever been arrested for an offense punishable by blah blah blah ..." or something similar. There are never any stipulations. It is always, always crystal clear.

You guys do what you want, though. Who knows ... maybe you'll skate through.

Minh

 

[soarby007]

You are exactly right Snakum.

 

[A Squared]

However, to the best of my knowledge it is illegal to ask the question in the first place.

Not true, or at least not generally true. A few states have laws against asking about an arrest record. Massachusetts is one. There is no Federal law forbidding asking about arrest records. Asking about arrests could be considered racial discrimination, which is illegal. Apparently some racial groups may have higher arrest rates than others, and asking that question could be construed as discriminating against members of one of the more arrest prone groups, rather than discriminating agains people who do illegal things. Your federal court system at work. Asking about arrests is not, per se, a vioaltion of federal employment law.

 

[A Squared]

IF you complete the coumminty service and stay out of trouble for the period of time (6 months) it will be as if it never happened. It is NOT a conviction. I belive that if you viloate these terms by being arrested within this period of time you will be convicted of the lesser charge agreed upon. Otherwise, if you stay clean it is technically "sealed" and you can legally state that you were never arrested.

You're confusing conviction with arrest here. regardless of how things went after the arrest (convicted, dismissed, deferred adjudication, reduced, sealed, expunged, whatever) you were still arrested. If the question is asked, the answer is yes. Otherwise you may find yourself being booted out of groundschool like Snakeum's friends.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

Interesting thread. I was driving home from work a while back and I came up on this cop standing beside the hood of his car pointing what appeared to be a gun directly at me. At first it scared the hell out of me, then as I got a bit closer I realized it was just his radar gun. The way that he was standing there aiming it at me made it appear differently though. I thought about persuing it as it didn't seem like proper procedure, but I never did.

 

[ms6073]

Often times on minor offenses the judges will allow the defendant to complete some type of service and after successful completion, dismiss the charges, ergo, leaving no record of conviction. There would be a record of arrest and that doesn't go away, but that doesn't necesarilly ruin you.

While I understand everyones points concerning arrest records and convictions, I am confused by the advice with regards to the orginal posters situation. Since when did it become a criminal offense to be in posession of a cap gun even if it is a dead ringer it is still a non-firing replica that does nothing more than make noise?

It seems obvious to me that the orginal poster incurred some form of court supervised diversion or adjudication for an offense but I want to know why? Unless there is something we are not hearing from the orginal poster, such as unauthorized entry onto private property, I do not see how any crime has been committed (did they need permits to film maybe), and thus there should not have been a need for court interdiction or community service! Why was the case not dismissed outright and the arrest record expunged?

 

[A Squared]

Since when did it become a criminal offense to be in posession of a cap gun even if it is a dead ringer it is still a non-firing replica that does nothing more than make noise?

mere posession, no. However, I think (and some of the folks who are more up on criminal law can chime in) if you have a replica and you use it in a threatening manner, it is assault. Say you had a really real looking 1911 (glock, patterson colt, whtever) replica and you ran down the street shoving it in people's faces, tellimg them you were "going to bust a cap in thier A$$", It would be a felony assault, even though the gun wasn't real.

It seems obvious to me that the orginal poster incurred some form of court supervised diversion or adjudication for an offense but I want to know why? Unless there is something we are not hearing from the orginal poster, such as unauthorized entry onto private property, I do not see how any crime has been committed (did they need permits to film maybe), and thus there should not have been a need for court interdiction or community service! Why was the case not dismissed outright and the arrest record expunged?

Agree, I think we're not getting the whole story. If it really was a cap gun, and he really wasn't pointing it at the guy, and he really was involved in some reasonably legit activity like filming a video clip for a class project (as opposed to just hanging out on the street corner waving the cap-gun around for no apparent reason) It would be a no brainer, dismiss the charges completely, let the guy go, wipe the slate clean, to the extent that can be accomplished ... whatever extent that is. Seems like there's more to the story than is being told.

 

[mflyer]

Anything is possible!

I know guys that have been hired by the commuters for having DUI's...And a guy who stole an airplane (not the most recent idiot) that has been hired by several coporate departments!! So anything is possible, I don't want to give you false hopes but all boils down to who you know.

 

[erj-145mech]

This hasn't happened post 9-11, the TSA is involved now, so you know that its going to be fubar.

 

[SeanAucoin]

The cap gun did look like a real gun, its similar to what a squared said, its still assault with a dangerous weapon. the reason we were arrested was the guy we pointed it at was an off duty cop, So he naturally radioed it in. If I could bring you all there then you would understand that we clearly wernt pointing it at him. he just happened to drive by. He was new on the force and officers said he was probally just trying to get his name know. his response was "I felt threatened for my life, it looked like a chrome plated semi-automatic pistol" haah clearly there was a hugeee bright orange tip at the end. Anyways that is why they reduced it to just assault, cuz clearly it wasent a dangerous weapon. then after the assault reduction. I just did 30 hours of services as a disposition for the judge to learn my lesson. I called my lawyer today here is what I got...

-no felony conviction
-no midemeanor conviction
-no criminal record
-yes I did get arrested for a felony (assault with a dangerous weapon)
-the case ended on a disposition for the judge to have my learn my lesson, on the disposition of the case paper they actually put in a box next to where it says "case dismissed" and put some custom wording...

Im off to pack for florida...suppose to be leaving saturday morning to ft lauderdale. Hopefully wilma dosent kill the trip..

thanks for all the posts on this subject!