• NC Software is having a Black Friday Sale Event thru December 4th on Logbook Pro, APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook, Cirrus Elite Binders, and more. Use coupon code BF2020 at checkout to redeem 15% off your purchase. Click here to shop now.
  • NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.

beating the dead horse

YV-135C

Active member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
33
Total Time
5000+
There is more than one way to PFT. You guys seem to think that the only way to PFT is by taking someone else's job.The truth is that there are programs out there that put the pilot in the right seat of an airplane without taking someone else's job. Not all SIC programs are worthless. Some provide actual flight line experience in weather conditions in which a lower time pilot might not normally fly in due to lack of experiecnce, or whatever other reason. This is invaluable stuff. If it's not taking another person's job ( SIC in aircraft that don't require SIC for example), then wouldn't you rather get actual operating experiece that is more challenging and affordable in higher performance airplanes rahter that putting around the patch in a 152 for the zillionth time with your nervous first time student doing touch and go's while trying not to fall asleep??

I know w couple of folks who have gone through SIC programs like the ones I am talking about. These same folks were also CFI's who insisted that the experience they paid for ( NOT TAKING ANOTHER PERON's JOB, MIND YOU) was 1000 times ore beneficial than the time they spent being CFI at their local flight schools..

i can probably predict how you guys will respond to this ,with your "pay your dues " attitudes..Remember that just because you paid your dues one way doesn't mean that that is THE ONLY WAY....

just beating the dead horse....

YV-135C
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
YV-135C said:
If it's not taking another person's job ( SIC in aircraft that don't require SIC for example), then wouldn't you rather get actual operating experiece that is more challenging and affordable in higher performance airplanes rahter that putting around the patch in a 152 for the zillionth time with your nervous first time student doing touch and go's while trying not to fall asleep??


Just one question. If you're SIC in an aircraft that doesn't require a SIC, how are you logging the time?
 

captjim

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 2, 2001
Posts
461
Total Time
9000
You also might consider proof reading your post yv-135c.:cool:
 

kilomike

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
155
Total Time
2800
It's still wrong to pay for flight time especially when paying passengers or freight people have paid to have shipped is involved. Enough already! Say no to SIC programs or any type of pft training program. As a PAYING passenger I would not want to fly on a plane being flown by someone who is buying the time vs. someone who is properly qualified and was hired on his or her merits. It's one thing to share expenses on a personal flight involving no profit motive ie. a recreational flight to Martha's Vineyard in your own aircraft, sharing the cost of fuel. That's fine and perfectly legal not to mention great fun. But I for one would never fly as a passenger on a flight involving the first officer paying to be there!!!
 

ifly4food

ifly4food.com
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
956
Total Time
To Muc
Let's give this a rest...

C'mon, guys, let's leave this issue alone. It's like arguing religion and politics... you will never change the other side's opinion, you'll just go around and around endlessly.
If you are for it, fine. If not, fine, but as the origional poster said, this is beating a dead horse.

Let's put it to rest.
 

ms6073

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
236
Total Time
Some
Re: Let's give this a rest...

Since some obviously did not see the humor in my reply, I have deleted the content to prevent further unrest within this discussion!

Sorry to have offended, contacting departure - good day!
 
Last edited:

aero99

just a member, not senior
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
394
Total Time
10PM
1

1
 
Last edited:

waka

Emasculating the Right
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
1,972
Total Time
4?
"If it's not taking another person's job ( SIC in aircraft that don't require SIC for example),"

Wrong.

When a 135 operator uses a SIC in aircraft that don't normally require one, they get approval from the FAA. The operator benefits financially from the SIC because having an SIC can reduce take-off minimums and increase 135 flight time limitations from 8 hours for single pilot ops to 10 hours for two pilots. So YES, it is indeed taking another's job.

Yet another failed attempt to justify PFT.....There never has, and never will be a justification for PFT. Stop trying to rationalize away your guilt.
 

saabtrash

I suck.
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
232
Total Time
2
I used to fly for a company out of STP, as a PIC, and I earned all my time the hard way. We did have a PFT SIC program, some of those who did it were simply spoiled brats whose parents bought all of the time for them, others were people who worked full-time and actually had the money to do it. I did enjoy having a second person in the cockpit, as a safety issue. I didn't enjoy it when it became apparent that the putz sitting next to me didn't belong in a 152 by himself muchless a twin in Hard IFR conditions. If I were interviewing someone for an airline position, I would definitely be hesistant to hire someone that paid for all of their time rather than busting their ass for it. My two cents...
 

YV-135C

Active member
Joined
Dec 4, 2001
Posts
33
Total Time
5000+
narrow minds

listen Saabtrash( and all of you with this same narrow minded ill-informed opinion) I am neither a spoiled brash nor a badstick kid who doesn't belong in a 152. I am a full time worker paying for this stuff OUT OF MY POCKET , barely affording twin time in a manner which is much more challenging than any other option i have found available to me. You and all your narrow minded "gotta bust your butt" types think you have it all figured out...I fly in hard IFR in this part of the country every single day this time if year. The pilots i fly with have no problem with an SIC on board. THey find it safer, AND they learn techniques in CRM that they wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to practice in the single pilot environment..PLUS they get paid a couple bucks extra per hour.

Look, i am not going to try and defend my position any more. It is obvious that you guys have made up your minds with the little incorrect information you seem to have on the subject, even resorting to accusational stereotypes that are completely inaccurate. I agree that in some cases PFT is a bad,irreproachable thing. But, consider that it is a case by case basis.
Me family and all their friends are in the airline industry. They are long time pilots with distinguished careers who have insisted ad infinitum that PFT (ie. the program which i am doing) is not only worthwhile but beneficial for a young pilot with relatively low time.
You seem to have a limited concept of what "busting you a$$" means. Open your mind a bit. you might learn something....
 

skydrillr

Member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
6
Total Time
925
You posted the message, you knew what the reaction would be, why are you acting offended?

Your the one who said "just beating the dead horse." Well, let the others beat the dead horse too. You started it.

At 700 hrs, I will be putting around the patch in a 152 for another year or so. I'm a CFII so hopefully I'll have a few IFR students and rack up some actual in the 172. However we choose to build our time, its going to be a very long road ahead.

What happens when the PFT runs out? Do they hire you in the left seat?

Safe flying,
Traci
 

BE1900DATP

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
11
Total Time
2500
Yv.... you say that the PIC's where you are at get paid a few extra buck when they fly with you.... Could that posibly be like paying the neighbors daughter a cuple of bucks to watch your three year old when you got out?
 

Wiggums

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,040
Total Time
.
Re: narrow minds

I'm sorry, but's it's you (YC-135C) that has the incorrect information. In your first post you justify paying for your seat because you're not taking anyone elses job by being a sic in an aircraft that doesn't require a sic. However, if that was true then you wouldn't be able to log that twin time unless it was a 91 leg, and you were sole manipulator of the controls. More likely, your company has made a deal to allow second pilots, and with that deal your company gets certain benefits, such as lower minimums and an extended duty day. Now you are a REQUIRED crew member; if the company wants to use those benefits, you have to be onboard. If you're taking the place of a required crew memeber then that's wrong, no matter if your a 135 SIC or a 121 FO.

YV-135C said:
Me family and all their friends are in the airline industry. They are long time pilots with distinguished careers who have insisted ad infinitum that PFT (ie. the program which i am doing) is not only worthwhile but beneficial for a young pilot with relatively low time.
Also, can someone explain to me that when someone ends up on the losing side of a debate here, why to they bring up that all their friends and family are Boeing 777 captains that agree with their views, so I should too. Oh, and one last thing, don't you think it's a little hypocritical that you complain some here stereotype you as a “dad's little rich boy”, when you stereotype all of us as “narrow minded 'gotta bust your butt' types”.
 

TurboS7

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,261
Total Time
19,210
There are the have and the have nots. I be proud to be part of the have nots, even if my wife calls us a bunch of "half-drunk, partying, women chasing, 30 to 50 year old high school kids." We still have more fun than the have's. Preserve that liver(an not with alcohol)you need it when you get over 50.
 
Top