bearing from or bearing to

[saviboy]

What is the right terminology/ phraseology?
bearing form or bearing to when using NDB

 

[minitour]

Well...the bearings go from the NDB...but you can intercept a bearing and track it TO the NDB too...


-mini

 

[MauleSkinner]

from the Pilot/Controller glossary...

Nondirectional Beacon - An L/MF or UHF radio beacon transmitting nondirectional signals whereby the pilot of an aircraft equipped with direction finding equipment can determine his bearing to or from the radio beacon and "home" on or track to or from the station. When the radio beacon is installed in conjunction with the Instrument Landing System marker, it is normally called a Compass Locator.

 

[saviboy]

from the Pilot/Controller glossary...

That is what I had read too. But I always heard Bearing To and since the needle always points TO the station it made perfect sense to me.

Has anybody been given a NDB bearing interception intsruction by ATC?
If yes what terminology did they use?

 

[Donsa320]

Well...the bearings go from the NDB...but you can intercept a bearing and track it TO the NDB too...


-mini

No, I'm afraid that bearings on the ADF are "To" in general use.
I just dug out a Radio Facilities chart for Europe for 1959 when all their airways were Low Frequency Airways. All bearings describing the routes were "To" the appropriate facility just as I recalled they were in the USA. Also all the Low Frequency Range legs were shown with "To" bearings on the legs.
I then pulled out a very recent Pacific (Japan) Jepp chart and found a few intersections on VOR airways which were defined by bearings "To" the appropriate Rbn. Of course they were all non-compulsory intersections since an ADF receiver is not required on the VOR airways. There used to be a few of those ADF bearing intersections around the US but I've not seen any lately.

We found it best to refer to ADF bearings as "To" and VOR Radials as radiating out "From" to avoid confusion, having grown up with both.

Best
DC

 

[MauleSkinner]

That is what I had read too. But I always heard Bearing To and since the needle always points TO the station it made perfect sense to me.

Has anybody been given a NDB bearing interception intsruction by ATC?
If yes what terminology did they use?

That's what I was taught, too, but I tend to believe what I see in print moreso than what some instructor somewhere "knew" to be true...even if it WAS my Dad that taught me that.

Fly safe!

David

 

[nosehair]

What is the right terminology/ phraseology?
bearing form or bearing to when using NDB

Sounds like you are trying to relate the "to/from" ambiguity of the VOR to ADF. That doesn't exist. When talking about "bearings", it can be either "to" if the intended action is to intercept and track "to" the station, or "from" if the intended action is to intercept and track "from" the station to another point. The terminology would be self-explanatory.
Unlike the VOR, where all references are "radials from", and we have to know that the reciprocal number is "to" the station, the ADF references are "bearing to", or "bearing from". Simple.
Of course this is more confusing to the student, because most students learn VOR orientation first, so they are trying to read some ambiguity into the term "bearing", but if ADF were the first nav aid we learned, "bearing to", and "bearing from" would be self-explanatory.
​

 

[Donsa320]

That is what I had read too. But I always heard Bearing To and since the needle always points TO the station it made perfect sense to me.

Has anybody been given a NDB bearing interception intsruction by ATC?
If yes what terminology did they use?

Yep, be VERY careful when ATC gives you a clearance involving an ADF. They will many times refer to bearings "from" a Rbn, so be sure you know what they mean. I've noticed that mostly in holding instructions on a Rbn. IE; hold East on the 090 bearing, Arg!. <grin>

DC

 

[say again]

Thank god for FMS!!!!!:beer:

 

[MauleSkinner]

Thank god for FMS!!!!!:beer:

So...you're flying your FMS, and you're issued a hold "east of the NDB on the 090 bearing"..now what?

You've still got to set up your FMS hold on the proper "bearing".

 

[say again]

So...you're flying your FMS, and you're issued a hold "east of the NDB on the 090 bearing"..now what?

You've still got to set up your FMS hold on the proper "bearing".

It's just like plugging in a radial of a VOR. It makes it so much easier, and takes all the guess work out if it. So yes, you still have to set up the FMS, but it beats sitting there and trying and figure out bearings and all that other BS!!!!:beer:

 

[F16fixer]

David from new ulm, is that you?

So...you're flying your FMS, and you're issued a hold "east of the NDB on the 090 bearing"..now what?

You've still got to set up your FMS hold on the proper "bearing".

 

[minitour]

No, I'm afraid that bearings on the ADF are "To" in general use.

So when you track outbound on the NDB 3 OUN Approach (just an example...sorry can't get the plate to linky)...are you not on the 200 bearing from the station?

This is just the way I was taught and I'm not saying you're wrong...I'd just like to clarify.

-mini

 

[Donsa320]

So when you track outbound on the NDB 3 OUN Approach (just an example...sorry can't get the plate to linky)...are you not on the 200 bearing from the station?

This is just the way I was taught and I'm not saying you're wrong...I'd just like to clarify.

-mini

Yes you are and if you have a fully functioning RMI card you could read that directly under the tail of the ADF needle.
With a fixed card the mental gymnastics are increased. But if you only consider the head of the ADF needle it will always tell you 2 things. Whether you are on track... or... which way to turn to get back to track if you place the airplane on the desired track heading. That works inbound or outbound and I've seen a turn in the wrong direction many times after crossing the station when the attention shifts to the tail of the needle. Arg!

In the A-320 only the tail of the ADF needle is displayed going away from the station along with a partial RMI display in the mode we used for the ADF approaches. It was a bear deciding which way to correct going away from the station at first. Of course smart money would just fly the map and back it up with the ADF but not on a checkride.

However, whatever works for you is fine.

DC

 

[minitour]

No, I'm afraid that bearings on the ADF are "To" in general use.

Yes you are and if you have a fully functioning RMI card you could read that directly under the tail of the ADF needle.

So....which is it? Are all bearings to or do you have to and from?

Also, you don't necessarily need an RMI (although those are fun)...you could just be using a straight movable card ADF or (as you already mentioned) a fixed card ADF.

But I'm still confused...is it all bearings are TO the station or you can track a bearing FROM a station or TO a station.....

Maybe I should just go FROM this thread and TO the fridge and get a beer FROM the fridge and put it in TO my belly :beer:

-mini

 

[Tinstaafl]

It depends on your frame of reference w.r.t. the direction your trying to measure.

Your position from the NDB is a Bearing FROM. At the same time the direction needed to get to the station is a Bearing TO. They're two sides of the same coin.

Generally a Bearing FROM is used to describe your position w.r.t. somewhere else whilst a Bearing TO is used to describe somewhere else's position w.r.t. yourself.

 

[A Squared]

The answer is:

Listen carefully to what the controller says and ask for clarification if he doesn't say "to" or "from"

 

[Donsa320]

So....which is it? Are all bearings to or do you have to and from?

Also, you don't necessarily need an RMI (although those are fun)...you could just be using a straight movable card ADF or (as you already mentioned) a fixed card ADF.

But I'm still confused...is it all bearings are TO the station or you can track a bearing FROM a station or TO a station.....

Maybe I should just go FROM this thread and TO the fridge and get a beer FROM the fridge and put it in TO my belly :beer:

-mini

Well, I thought the original question was: are ADF bearings generally referred to as "TO" or "From"? And my answer is "TO". That is the way they are charted. How you fly them is your option.

DC

 

[A Squared]

And my answer is "TO". That is the way they are charted.

Not true at all. They are charted both ways Just a cursory glance through my jepps results in both "to" and "from"

 

[bafanguy]

No, I'm afraid that bearings on the ADF are "To" in general use.
.

We found it best to refer to ADF bearings as "To" and VOR Radials as radiating out "From" to avoid confusion, having grown up with both.

Best
DC

Donsa,

When I first saw the question asked, my reaction was the same as yours....bearings are "TO". I think this may be what those of us of a "certain age" were taught; it's clearly what I remember.

My 1963 copy of "Air Navigation" by the US Navy Hydrographic Office says, "Note that the bearing of a radio station is the reciprocal of the direction of propagation of the radio wave." I think this is a roundabout way of saying "TO", i.e., the signal comes from the station measured as 270, the bearing is 090 ?

I looked in "Weems & Zweng" and found no definitive statement.

However, the AIM, "Pilot/Controller Glossary" states "...to or from any point...". And the "FAA Instrument Flying Handbook" says, "A bearing is simply the direction of a straight line between the aircraft and station, or vice-versa."

As you said earlier, just don't let there be any confusion bewteen you and the controller as to what the clearance is.

 

[Donsa320]

Not true at all. They are charted both ways Just a cursory glance through my jepps results in both "to" and "from"

Were those enroute charts, the approach charts always had both on them. I looked for some examples on the US enroute but could not find any. I believe you are in Alaska if I recall and would more likely have some Low Frequency Airways left up there, no?

DC

 

[Donsa320]

Donsa,

When I first saw the question asked, my reaction was the same as yours....bearings are "TO". I think this may be what those of us of a "certain age" were taught; it's clearly what I remember.

My 1963 copy of "Air Navigation" by the US Navy Hydrographic Office says, "Note that the bearing of a radio station is the reciprocal of the direction of propagation of the radio wave." I think this is a roundabout way of saying "TO", i.e., the signal comes from the station measured as 270, the bearing is 090 ?

I looked in "Weems & Zweng" and found no definitive statement.

However, the AIM, "Pilot/Controller Glossary" states "...to or from any point...". And the "FAA Instrument Flying Handbook" says, "A bearing is simply the direction of a straight line between the aircraft and station, or vice-versa."

As you said earlier, just don't let there be any confusion bewteen you and the controller as to what the clearance is.

Could be age creeping up....as the King said in Siam...what was so is not.

 

[bafanguy]

Could be age creeping up....

...nope...that can't be it...

 

[A Squared]

Were those enroute charts, the approach charts always had both on them. I looked for some examples on the US enroute but could not find any. I believe you are in Alaska if I recall and would more likely have some Low Frequency Airways left up there, no?

DC

I was referring to approach plates. Yeah, I'm in Alaska and yeah we still have colored airways. On the enroute chart's it's all bearings from the NDB.

On my approach plated I can find instances where it specifically states "...via the 293 bearing from JNR NDB" nnd also "climb on 270 bearing JNR NDB to cross...." In the second case if you were climbing on the 270 bearing *to* the NDB, you'd be plowing rocks